EOWG convened for the weekly teleconference to welcome a new co-chair and continue work on deliverables in progress. First up was the annoucement that Shawn is transitioning to a role as Team Contact for EO and Brent Bakken of Pearson has accepted the position of co-chair. Sharron will continue in her co-chair role. After congratulations and thanks, Shadi introduced the topics for group consideration. Kevin re-introduced us to the Planning Resources, the foundation for which was laid earlier this year. EO should look to Work for this Week and the survey to ask any questions or seek clarification of purpose and goals. next eric updated EO on his response to recent feedback, including navigation and display updates. These will be presented for detailed comment in this week's survey. In considering the Hidden SC link that is displayed after a filtering operation has occured, there was discussion of purpose, potential, and placement. The following resolutions were made related to the QuickRef:
Kevin next informed the group that there remained 12 outstanding issues on the Tips and that it is his intention to work on 8 of them immediately. One will be in this week's survey. Brent reminded everyone to watch for updates to Work for thes Week and the new survey and the meeting adjourned.
Shawn:Wanted to announce the transition. I will be Team Contact and so coninue to work with EO in new role, Brent Bakken is now co-chair.
<davidberman> Congratulations Brent!
<yatil> Brent! ********* Congratulations!
<James> +1000000
<yatil> Thanks Shawn!!
<davidberman> + a googolplex
Shawn: Welcome Brent, Sharron will continue as co-chair. Their skills will complement each other.
Sharron: And special acknowledgment of and kudos for Shawn's years of service and leadership. I can't imagine the progress and great work of EO through these years without her leadership
Brent: Thanks everyone for the congratulations and even though it is a challenge to fill Shawn's shoes, I am pleased to take on the job.
Shawn: Shadi will run the meeting today since most topics are related to his projects.
Shadi: Thanks and congrats, we will head into the agenda.
Kevin: Last week we looked at an approach to the Planning documents. This week I would like to focus on two documents that we had started several months ago. Would like everyone and especially the new folks to take a look, get oriented to them and ask any questions you might have.
<kevin> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Planning/Personas
Kevin: This week's survey will ask for feedback about them, so let's look first at Planning Personas. This is meant to be the a sketch of the types of people who may have a need to do accessibility planning activities.
... we created these and want you all to review for any glaring gaps that we have not identified in personas and/or their needs.
<kevin> http://w3c.github.io/wai-dynamic-planning/
Kevin: second resource was the foundation and first pass for the prototype itself. Just take a look to ensure it meets the need of the personas, is it relatively correctly structured for those needs? Don't worry much about design considerations, I have since thought to align the presentation more closely to the Tips and will come back to you all with alternative design ideas in the next few weeks.
... any immediate comments?
Shadi: we are not looking at details of design but rather the high level points that allow you to drill deeper, is that right?
Kevin: Yes the structure is llikely to remain but will look at visual design aspects.
David: Responsive use creates a crunch you will want to look at.
Kevin: Thanks, I expect to iron that out as design develops.
Shadi: We will have this on the survey so plan to take time to get re-acquainted with the resources, its goals and basic progress. We are looking for any questions about purpose, etc ...and for now, onward.
Shadi: There are some heads-up comments and then a request for specific considerations.
<shadi> https://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/
Eric: Thanks Shadi and thanks Shawn for your work in EO, I just have to say that again. Congratulations and thanks to Brent. I have gotten considerable feedback on the QuickRef and thank you all for that.
... there has been good feedback, I got comments about too much animation and flickering. Reduced font size on the one side and display them the whole time so there is no disclosure stuff and it reduces the movement. I hope that addresses the comments.
... also new is the way the content pane will show only those SCs displayed on the right. Hoping this makes the tool easier to understand and use. Also made consistent the way to open the SCs. Outside links have an icon indicating that.
Shadi: So you are saying that these will be on the survey for detailed comment?
Eric: Yes, sure
Shawn: I am not sold about opening in the same tab. I clicked on an Understanding and lost the QuickRef.
Eric: Users can open in a new tab by their choice with the right click. So we allow the user to have a preference.
Shawn: The arrow indicates (to me at least) that I *will* get a new tab. My suspicion is that it will confound some users and so we will need to make the way that it does operate very clear in the 'how to use' section
David: I agree with Shawn and had the exact same experience. In fact, I have had the same experience in many of our tools. Getting lost, trouble finding your way back, etc. We might consider modernizing our approach.
Shadi: When you did user testing, didn't you get preferences for both? ... and so the issue may be a need to consider the icon and what it conveys.
Eric: Sure, I can look for a different icon.
Shadi: Just to keep in mind that we do have preferences on both sides.
... at this point we have a couple of specific questions. Eric will walk us through.
Eric: We have the fixed top bar and fixed navigation area in the desktop view. Until recently they were fixed using Javascript but I found it unreliable across browsers and also a bit buggy. I changed to a container on the right that is scrollable. And since we have the footer, we retained the original scrollbar - both on the right. It is regretable but the only way I have thought to get to the footer info. I wanted EO to consider alternatives so we can eliminate the double scroll bars.
Brent: as I recall we had a scroll bar for the TOC area and another one for the main content. So as it is now, I must use the little scroll bar on the right and I wonder where it came from? Was it in comments from testers? I don't recall that we spoke about it.
Eric: It was an attempt to solve a problem supported in FF but nowhere else. The Javascript fixes were not implemented in other browsers and I came up with this to address the lack of support in other browsers.
Brent: My first reaction to the scroll functions and having to scroll the window for content was negative. You must do both up and down scrolling to get to the tabs and use the TOC, it is not very user friendly.
Shawn: I have the same concerns as Brent and... yeah, once I figure it out, it works, but it is not intuitive to figure it out.
Eric: At the moment, the user can scroll down from the header content and could not see most of the content and the sidebar. If the footer content was displayed another way, we could eliminate one scroll bar. As it is now, it is not intuitive.
Shawn: An option is not to place the footer info there. So assuming I do not have the footer, how would I get rid of header information?
... for expanded texts, regardless of the footer issue, if you have header fixed, it decreases the amount of space for the information I am most interested in.
shawn: I am not convinced that we need the footer there, maybe a link from "About this resource" or something. It will be fine to provide that info some other way.
David: I wanted to suggest it does not have to be one or the other in terms of the header and footer, could they not collapse them based on expectation of user interest?
Eric: That is basically the approach we used before but now, with two scrollable areas it is less clear. We do not want the side bar to disappear, we want the filters and SCs displayed, etc
<shawn-charter> -1 to that automatic disappearing
David: Could the left nav then simply float?
Eric: I could make it position fixed but only from the height of the page, so when a user scrolls down I want the left nav to travel up to the frame of the browser.
... that is what position sticky should do but was not implemented in browsers and so could not work.
David: there is more than one way and I am happy to help off-line and do a brainstorm by phone.
Shadi: To summarize, now that CSS3 has let you down, we are left with the fact that this needs to be simplfied and not have two scroll bars. An opportunity is the option to remove the footer info somewhere else, maybe About section. Two separate scrollable areas are design issues, are there any other questions about it for now?
Sharron: Does removing the footer info solve the problem?
Eric: It provides me an option to get rid of one of the scroll bars.
Kevin: Why not move the footer to the bottom of the main content section?
Eric: Not sure how it would look, but yes, that seems to work for me.
RESOLUTION: Information in footer can be moved to About or bottom of main section, at editor's discretion.
+1
<davidberman> +1
<Vicki> +1
<Brent> +1
<yatil> +1
Eric: previously things that were not relevant would be displayed but greyed out. Comments indicated that it was not clear when content changed. Now the idea is to hide the filtered out SCs rather than grey them out and provide a link to the Hidden SCs. This approach is meant to address the comments - to make clear that there has been a change and also that there are hidden SCs (what is displayed is not the complete set of WCAG success criteria.) Comments about that approach?
Sharron: if I did not know what Eric has just said and only encountered "Hidden Success Criteria" as a link, I would not know what to make of it. I definitely prefer this presentation to the greyed out ones, this is much clearer. But the meanign of the link is hard to understand. The yellow bar is very clear on the top. What does hidden mean? why is it hedden, are we out of spcae? Should i look for "expand" function...confusing. It is a filering mechansim, people will know they have filtered, it is why they chose tags in order to filter...Why do we link to the hidden SCs at all?
James: Having them available is a good idea. Showing the yellow bar is good but tells only half the story. You have hidden several SCs, why not tell that story too? Maybe do something with the background. The right column has too much space and gets too close to the scroll bar, words get too close.
... would like to get the whole story in the yellow bar.
Sharron: But we set out to filter, why link to the things I filtered out?
James: To let you know that your filter has worked
Shawn: and also for printing that some things are missing
Shadi: Do we want to show it as a general statement "some SCs have been removed" *or* more precisely that "these specific things have been removed?"
Brent: If a user has filtered, I can understand that you would not need to tell them they have done that. But if you filter and send the result to others, it would be an alert to the receiver that there are many SCs and that in this case, they do not apply. But allow the people you send to to understand that there are addiitonal SCs that might relate to other issues they face.
Shadi: and so if you see that list and someone has sent it to you. When you see that list of what has been filtered out, would you know what to do?
Brent: I would not immediately know what to do. If I look and find something of interest, I cannot link to it from here. So depending on which tab on the left is showing ...is it content or filter?
... it is not clear how to get to a hidden SC and find and learn more about it.
Shadi: is the target audience for this resource, would that person be able to find the 'clear filters' button and proceed?
Brent: Yes they can figure it out but if it was the first time you would have to learn how to back out and find a way to reset. It would take some amunt of time time, would not be immediately clear.
<yatil> [Display complete SCs on request in hidden SC area, clear filters/show all SCs button in the hidden SC area]
Shadi: Another option would be to add new functionality and features. If the public review shows that is needed, we may consider it. Our hope was to show the ones that were filtered out as an encouragment for others to explore.
Brent: I like the direction Eric has gone and think we *should* show the other SCs. I liked James' idea to put it into the bar. Hope it will be an encouragement to exploration. Think it can be figured out in a few minutes.
Shadi: An option mentioned was to put the link into the yellow bar, that makes sense. Showing onlythe numbers I am not so sure of.
James: A suggestion to "unhide" other SCs, making them all links when they are displayed, and I can see the Hidden section as a great way to browse and learn. If you were to focus on one of them and you could show the tags they were associated with, it could be quite useful. Probably too far, but one idea about how people might experiment and learn more about what the resource is, what the references are, and how they all relate.
<davidberman> +1 on all of James suggestions
Shadi: Making the list active..is this something that could be a future request?
<Vicki> +1 Shadi wish list
James: yes it would be cool. To have a place where you can show all tags associated with the SCs
Eric: Allowing people to add to the tags may be doable in this version.
... you arrive at a filtered page. Then you scroll down to the "hidden" list. For each you could see the tags associated with each SC. You may then choose to add a tag to your filtered view and get a new view.
Shadi: Can I strongly suggest not to add this until we have solved the navigation and activity tag questions.
... I think we should log this as a feature request and see where it might fit in.
<James> +1
Eric: an alternative is to display the SCs as links at the bottom. More complex.
James: slicing this up by roles could be an excellent learning tool to help people understand the relationship between SCs and techniques, allowing them to dive deep and see relational info more easily than other tools we provide now. It may even end up being a different tool.
... quite valueable way to help people understand WCAG
Shadi: We agreed that we want tags related to roles once we have the content available.
... In summary, we accept the display of the Hidden SCs. Also the link was suggested to be displayed from the sidebar into the main alert box.
Vicki:One more suggestion: modify the phrase. Instead of "Hidden Success Criteria" maybe "All Success Criteria".
Shadi: another suggestion was to allow the "clear filters" button to display when the hidden SCs are displayed (editor's discretion.) Future feature suggestion was to make the hidden SCs interactive.
Vicki: I did not understand the phrase "Hidden." I think it would be clearer to say something like "All Success Criteria."
+1
<shawn-charter> success criteria that are not listed above because they don't apply to the filters you picked
Eric: The problem is that it is *not* all SCs, so another possiblity is "unrelated"
David: Somehow to say, these are all the rest
<Vicki> All other Success Criteria or Other Success Criteria
<yatil> [Filtered-out success critera <br> The following success criteria are not listed above because they don't apply to the filters you picked.]
Shadi: Can brainstorm and put in survey or give to editor?
<shawn-charter> Filtered Out Success Criteria
<shawn-charter> SC filtered out of above
Brent: We have two more topics and we want to let Kevin have time, so let's move it to the survey.
Suggested resolution - Display the Hidden SCs according to the design suggested and announce it in the main alert box.
RESOLUTION: Display the Hidden SCs according to the design suggested and move the link to the main alert box.
+1
<Brent> +1
<Vicki> +1
Kevin: There were 12 outstanding issues, will work on 8 of them immediately, and one is in the survey this week
<kevin> https://github.com/w3c/wai-quick-start/issues/262
Kevin: Suggestion to include more source code and have looked at other places where it could be useful. The question is in the survey so consider those and add others if needed as you look at them.
Brent: So we have a survey coming and will be adding a question or two and open the survey today or early Monday. Will be asking everyone to become more familiar with Planning resources; one or two on QuickRef; and the Tips questions. Have some Work for this Week based on what we have in the pipline for next week's call.
... that will be updated today.
Shadi: OK, welcome once again Brent, looking forward to working together in the new constellation, see you next week.
<davidberman> ... and Shawn should take yet another bow!