RDFCore teleconference: 2003-07-25 Time: 10:00:00 Fri Jul 25 2003 in America/New York duration 60 minutes + possible 30 minute extension which is equivalent to 15:00:00 Fri Jul 25 2003 in Europe/London Phone: +1-617-761-6200 (Zakim)#7332 irc: irc.w3.org #rdfcore IRC log: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html previous meeting minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0263.html agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0314.html Summary of decisions: RESOLVED: plain literal 'a' is the same thing as xsd:string 'a' ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-26-33 RESOLVED: close qu-03 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0018.html + postponed issue for a future WG ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-29-05 Summary of actions: ACTION: Graham - research and report on inclusion of non-standard XML chars in RDF plain literals ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-25-25 ACTION: pathayes - respond re qu-03 closure ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-29-26 ACTION: danbri - to get pfps-11 and pfps-12 done for monday ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-39-16 ACTION: brian - to link to editors draft copy of primer (shadow TR space) from homepage ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-58-01 ACTION: danbri - fwd ericm's msg to www-rdf-interest/logic seeking implementor reports ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T15-00-30 1. scribe: danbri scribes 2. Roll Call Present: Brian McBride (chair) Dan Brickley (scribe) Eric Miller Graham Klyne Dave Beckett Frank Manola Mike Dean Jeremy Caroll Pat Hayes Jos DeRoo regrets: Jan Grant 3. Review Agenda AOB addition: mime type discussions (from GK) 4. Next telecon: fri 1st Aug Dave Beckett to scribe (thanks Dave!) 5. Minutes of last telecon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0263.html approved. 6. Relationship between xsd:string and plain literals ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-10-34 bwm: we had made a decision to be agnostic pat: would be better to make a real decision gk: paul's comment makes case that this is specific to xml schema processing DaveB: xml itself deals in unicode code points, and some aren't allowed bwm: some characters / unicode code pts are not allowed in xml... q is 'are they allowed in plain literals' jjc: if we have to decide, i'd say yes bwm: no current restrictions anywhere jjc: syntax restricts us to within xml 1.0 but thats re serializations, not the actual graph which is different xml 1.1 has different restrictions to 1.0 - makes sense to be agnostic danbri: i support that pat: we define plain literals ourselves it behoovs us to explain relation to xsd:string DaveB: not our job danbri: we just say what they are, its apparent to world how they relate to other things bwm: a plain literal 'a' is same thing as an xsd:string 'a' jjc: re control chars, who knows... they may be permitted in rdf graphs, we don't care whether allowed in xsd strings bwm: would that satisfy you pat? pat: not really. cos i need a rule... gk: worrying too much ...we can encode anything into a literal xml 1.0 spec has ref to chars which can appear in the original xml document which may represent markup or character data pat: if somone puts one of these code pts in an rdf plain literal ...would it be xml-encoded in the resulting rdf/xml? various: yes brian: can i suggest we decide the simple case... ie that plain literal 'a' is same as xsd:string 'a' and action someone to investigate unusual code points bwm: anyone willing to pick up that action pat: I could... gk: me too... i think i've just found all the relevant bits bwm: action on graham w/ input from pat? raw materials mentioned in irc: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#sec4.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#NT-CharRef ACTION: on graham, research and report on inclusion of non-standard XML chars in RDF plain literals RESOLVED: plain literal 'a' is the same thing as xsd:string 'a' 7. qu-03 ref. http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-26-59 brian: tidying up some remaining LC issues bwm: do we need any discussion? pat proposes; gk seconds... bwm: propose resolve qu-03 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0018.html with the addition of stating that we have created a postponed issue for consideration by a future WG. RESOLVED: close qu-03 per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0018.html + postponed issue for a future WG ACTION: pathayes respond re qu-03 closure 8. Status of outstanding comments ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-29-38 Frank... primer: two pending waiting to move doc to shadow tr space they're waiting to see actual text em: i'm doing that now bwm: you'll ping those? f: yup concepts... 22 and 23... bwm: also social meaning pending jjc: ...as he wanted to see whole doc before signing off re 14... gk to chase next week bwm: where are we re 22, 23? gk: some confusion about who should be doing followups. me then jjc ... then gk again... bwm: was some discussion about changes to text gk: those been done jjc: i was action'd to make some changes... (uris, namespaces, resserved vocab) jjc: changes from last week are now in bwm: since jjc off on holiday soon, can gk chase this? syntax... done :) Thanks Dave! DaveB: I was actioned to put an SVG section in. bwm: i tried sending my action-backlog list out, mail went amis, will resend. Schema... no prog since last week (sick) http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/#schema ACTION: danbri to get pfps-11 and pfps-12 done for monday Semantics... bwm: currently showing 4 not accepted peter had detailed comments on some from this week. we just resolved one concern of his (re string literals) pat : re lbase literals, have greatly simplified this lbase isn't able to handly 'string exotica' (charsets etc); and isn't intended for machine processing bwm: have we completed the dance and need to record whether or not he's happy, or need to go aroudn again, patch specs etc. pat: i should have it done later today re pfps 07... typed literals w/ langtags we've changed things since we sent him our (then) resolution bwm: also discussion of whether change list part of doc DaveB: i spent some time reviewing Semantics ...to my satisfaction changes are substantial editorial jjc: suggestion to consult Dave Reynolds re whether Semantics has changed much, from implementor perspective JosD: I had to change one line to disable xml literal unifying already did the plain literal / xsd string matching ...changes are minimal ...at least in our case ... jjc: peter's review of semantics... ...relationship between properties and resources, concern seemed legit. pat: i made that change, fixed jjc: do i need to look again at xml literal text? pat: yes, any help there good, esp definite answers so can avoid evasive agnostic answers bwm: currently there is an answer. xml literals denote sequence of octets martin from i18n makes it clear that they're different bwm: do editors think we can have finalised docs for next fri? pat: think so danbri: aim to, depends on interaction w/ peter brian: tests, syntax done pat: should final version include a change list danbri: for public, very useful to have list of changes jjc: PR and REC differ usually just in terms of change list being omitted pat: so I should do a less wordy changelist aimed at public not in-crowd? em: to respond to pat... If that would put at risk doc completion, not needed em: priority is doc, 2ndarily change list pat: one recent run-in w/ peter was w.r.t. changelist bwm: can it go as an appendix please? (discussion of which copy of Primer em/frank working with) (21 july file) * DaveB notes he owes a review of primer, now confused what to look at em: re xml literal text, can ppl hang on after call to discuss ACTION: brian to link to editors draft copy of primer (shadow TR space) from homepage 9. Implementation Report ref: http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T14-58-29 em: I sent a request to wg list... please run your code against tests danbri: just for parser tests? jjc/em: no, daver, jos also testing closures ACTION: danbri fwd ericm's msg to www-rdf-interest/logic seeking implementor reports daver: IIRC, also passing all tests are Drive (C#), rdflib (python), sesame's (java) bwm: goal here is evidence to go to PR, not a marketing exercise 10 (AOB): Mime types (Graham Klyne) http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/rdfcore/2003-07-25.html#T15-01-19 gk comments (to list): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003Jul/0315.html DaveB: seems ok ...re charset, do we mandate or leave to xml? gk: I don't have an opinion gk: Aaron's msg went to types at iana.org... ...has been posted for review bwm: sounds like we need another iteration DaveB: posting w/ social section is a big problem... ...we decided to drop it, but aaron has left it in gk: should we make a formal decision that ...section 4 of mimetype registration doc (social content) be deleted jjc: is it ours, or Aaron's as Aaron? gk: somewhat grey area ...was originally published with WG consent ...he tried to have it published as draft w3c ...this was rejected by Interest Draft editor, hence done now as from Aaron ...intent was to be a WG comment jjc: why don't we send msg to aaron copying rdf-comnets list brian: ok to have ppl mail aaron + list, no need for formal resolution right now ...keep it informal for now Adjourned.