Session Start: Fri Apr 26 15:08:47 2002 [15:08] *** Now talking in #rdfcore [15:08] +PatrickS [15:09] +AaronSw [15:09] zakim, who's here? [15:09] I see ILRT, ??P8, PatrickS, AaronSw [15:09] ILRT has DaveB, JanG [15:09] * connolly checks WWW2002 itinerary to be sure I'm available 3May [15:09] zakim, ??P8 is FrankM [15:09] +FrankM; got it [15:09] +EricM [15:09] -ILRT [15:09] oops [15:10] +??P12 [15:10] zakim, ??P12 is gk [15:10] +Gk; got it [15:10] +??P7 [15:10] zakim, ??P7 is ILRT [15:10] +ILRT; got it [15:10] zakim, ILRT has DaveB, JanG [15:10] +DaveB, JanG; got it [15:10] so... today's the day... either we decide to publish today, or WWW2002 audience doesn't see it. [15:10] *** connolly is now known as DanC [15:10] Zakim, holds danbri [15:10] I don't understand 'holds danbri', DaveB. Try /msg Zakim help [15:10] Zakim, ILRT holds danbri [15:10] +Danbri; got it [15:10] zakim, who's here? [15:10] I see FrankM, PatrickS, AaronSw, EricM, Gk, ILRT [15:10] ILRT has Danbri [15:11] zakim, ILRT has DaveB, JanG, DanBri [15:11] +DaveB, JanG, DanBri; got it [15:11] * DanC Zakim, what's the passcode? [15:11] * Zakim the conference code is 7332, DanC [15:11] use "zakim, ILRT also has X" to add someone [15:11] +??P11 [15:11] otherwise it overwrites [15:11] zakim, ??P11 is JosD [15:11] + +33.4.92.95.aaaa [15:11] +JosD; got it [15:11] zakim, where is 33.? [15:11] sorry, AaronSw, I do not understand your question [15:11] zakim, where is 33? [15:11] sorry, AaronSw, I do not understand your question [15:11] zakim, where is +33? [15:11] country code 33 is France [15:11] zakim, +33 is MartinH [15:11] +MartinH; got it [15:11] +DanC [15:12] trouble dialing [15:12] +??P15 [15:12] zakim, ??P15 JeremyC [15:12] I don't understand '??P15 JeremyC', AaronSw. Try /msg Zakim help [15:12] zakim, ??P15 is JeremyC [15:12] +JeremyC; got it [15:12] *** Jema has joined #rdfcore [15:12] agenda? [15:13] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda [15:13] -open [15:13] RDFCore WG Telecon 2002-04-26 is now open [15:13] The agenda can be found at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Apr/0430.html [15:13] Agenda item 1: Volunteer scribe [15:13] agenda + 26Apr http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Apr/0430.html [15:13] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added [15:13] +Pat.Hayes [15:13] +MDean [15:13] Jeremy: the number from the uk is 00 1 617 761 6200 ? [15:13] +??P17 [15:13] gk volunteers as scribe [15:13] nick gk-scribe [15:13] -agenda next [15:13] Agenda item 2: Roll Call [15:13] *** mdean has joined #RDFCore [15:13] *** gk is now known as gk-scribe [15:14] Zakim, who's here? [15:14] I see FrankM, PatrickS, AaronSw, EricM, Gk, ILRT, JosD, MartinH, DanC, JeremyC, Pat.Hayes, MDean, ??P17 [15:14] ILRT has DaveB, JanG, DanBri [15:14] Sorry folks my phone's dead [15:14] zakim, ??P17 is RonD [15:14] +RonD; got it [15:14] Zakim, ??P17 is RonD [15:14] sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named '??P17' [15:15] brian, EricM is chairing; ok? [15:15] -agenda next [15:15] -agenda next [15:15] Agenda item 3: Introduce Observers [15:15] Agenda item 4: Review Agenda [15:15] See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Apr/0430.html [15:15] * AaronSw sits on hands [15:15] Zakim, ??P17 is RonD [15:15] sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named '??P17' [15:15] zakim, who's here? [15:15] Zakim, 4tf? [15:15] I see FrankM, PatrickS, AaronSw, EricM, Gk, ILRT, JosD, MartinH, DanC, JeremyC, Pat.Hayes, MDean, RonD [15:15] ILRT has DaveB, JanG, DanBri [15:15] I don't understand your question, DanC. [15:15] ah. [15:16] *** Jema has quit IRC (EOF From client) [15:16] *** bwm has quit IRC (EOF From client) [15:16] *** bwm has joined #rdfcore [15:16] Jeremy requests issue 15 before 13 (charmod before testcases) [15:16] -agenda next [15:17] regrets from DanBri, PatS? [15:17] +??P18 [15:17] also prob regrets from DaveB [15:17] Zakim, ??P18 is BrianM_cell [15:17] +BrianM_cell; got it [15:18] Next telecon: May3, usual time, unless decided otherwise [15:18] Review of minutes: PASSED [15:18] Status of completed actions: [15:19] CONFIRMED [15:19] Confirm status of withdrawn actions: [15:19] CONFIRMED [15:19] *** Jema has joined #rdfcore [15:19] Outstanding issues: 9 left [15:19] *** JosD has joined #rdfcore [15:20] 3 schema issues: DanBri proposals for dealing with? [15:20] Issue rdfs-isDefinedBy-semantics: Must the value of an rdfs:isDefinedBy property be a schema? [15:20] raised Wed 21 Feb 2001 by Aaron Swartz [15:20] http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfs-isDefinedBy-semantics [15:21] ACTION Aaron/Look at rdfs-isdefinedby-semantics, make proposal [15:21] http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfs-clarify-subClass-and-instance [15:21] ACTION Aaron/Look at (above), make proposal [15:22] who owns rdfms-contexts? [15:22] ACTION DanBri/Propose to close rdf-namespace-change [15:23] Item 10: new pubrules [15:23] aaron's issues are rdfs-isDefinedBy-semantics and rdfs-clarify-subClass-and-instance [15:24] Eric: everyone should be aware of these [15:24] In particular, disclosure of IPR [15:24] Item 11: document status - model theory [15:24] http://www.coginst.uwf.edu/~phayes/w3-rdf-mt-draft-42402.html [15:24] PatH: running a little behind schedule [15:25] new feature: "Weasels all dead" [15:25] Not much to say about containers -- is there anything that definitely should be said? [15:25] DanC: toiday's the day, decide to publish new draft, or not [15:26] Eric: then 2 week moratoriam on new publication [15:26] PatH: not sure if can get new document ready before mid next week [15:27] Is there any burning reason that people should be aware that the current draft is the current state of thinking? [15:28] (Deadline 30 Apr before moratorium) [15:28] PROPOSED: decide to publish, and PatH will do his best to get document ready [15:29] Most important change: simplification of literals; weasle wording and unasserted triples expunged; containers has some discussion, but incomplete as yet [15:29] * [15:29] JosD: this is a big improvement over Feb14 version [15:30] so... it's been moved and seconded to publish, giving the editor wide discretion to fix the remaining stuff [15:32] ACTION Eric/Get IPR statements link in place by April 30 [15:32] ACTION PatH/If possible, submit new document to Eric befor 29 April AM [15:33] eric, I might be able to help with the publication stuff, if it comes to that. (or maybe danbri?) [15:33] Datatypes document... [15:34] (danbri) -- i expecft to learn more about pubrules real soon now... [15:34] (patrick? which?) [15:34] (I guess PatrickS) [15:34] yeah [15:35] * DanC q+ [15:35] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue [15:35] bwm: need to take care that datatype spec and model theory don't say different things; some issues to be resolved between PatrickS and PatH about what the MT actually says [15:35] ack DanC [15:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:35] Note: "the Bermuda entailment" is not entailed by this design [15:36] jeremy's entailment == bermuda entailment [15:36] Datatypes not ready to publish [15:36] Item 12: document status primer [15:36] *** bwm has quit IRC (EOF From client) [15:36] *** Jema has quit IRC (Broken pipe) [15:36] primer: http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/rdf-primer-20020424.html [15:37] *** bwm has joined #rdfcore [15:37] can we have forward pointers, please? when you leave http://www.w3.org/2001/09/rdfprimer/rdf-primer-20020418fm.html in the dust, add a pointer to your newer work, ok? [15:37] Frank: message sent out last night - new version 20020424 has all of material from reviewed version PLUS new section on PRISM plus editorial changes. [15:37] Does not deal with use of rdf:value. Eric and Frank believe it's ready to publish [15:37] +??P19 [15:37] Martyn is happy with what he's reviewed [15:38] zakim, ??P19 is Sergey [15:38] +Sergey; got it [15:38] calling from Germany [15:39] "Sergey M, rocket scientist, is stumped by tricky telcon passcode technology". ;-) [15:39] * AaronSw chuckles [15:39] DanBri: hasn't reviewed schema section yet; would like warning on that [15:39] lol [15:40] it's because he doesn't believe in hashes, like me! [15:40] ... or blanket warning about mis-sync between documents [15:41] Improvements: many, and new sections [15:41] PROPOSED: publish primer [15:41] APPROVED [15:41] ACTION Eric/Take primer as-is, and publish [15:41] 13: Test Cases WD [15:42] Jan: 2002-02-25#2, 2002-02-25#3, 2002-02-25#9 are DONE [15:42] Several actions done, some awaiting checkin. Apart from test cases to-be-approved, content is pretty much final [15:44] DanC wants directions to implementers to tell them how to collect test results [15:44] Tarball needs to be rebuilt [15:45] For results collection: mail to rdf-comments list [15:45] oops, let's take the charmod item. 15. [15:46] Item 15: rdf-charmod-resources [15:47] jjc: wants to get this closed. Trying to get feedback onviewing URIs as IRIs and not accepting those not in NFC (i.e. require NFC). This is a change; seems to be in line with charmod, but charmod has dependency here on IRI which doesn't yet have consensus. [15:48] NFC Unicode remains in the N-triples, not %-encoded. [15:48] * DanC q+ [15:48] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue [15:48] URI that is %-encoded doesn't match otherwise-equivalent non-%-encoded URI [15:49] ooh.. that's a good test case... HTTP://example/foo vs. http://example/foo [15:49] ack danc [15:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:49] .me q+ [15:49] * AaronSw q+ [15:49] * Zakim sees AaronSw on the speaker queue [15:50] Aaron opposed allowing Unicode strings [15:50] ack AaronSw [15:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:51] Aaron wants to go the always-%-encode route [15:51] I count one in favor (Jeremy), one against (Aaron), and one abstain (DanC) [15:51] Case against: not correct treatment of NFC?? [15:51] that is, case against aaron, and *for* the proposal on the table. [15:52] (Thanks Dan) [15:52] I could make the case in favor stronger than jeremy's making it, but I'm not sure today's the day. [15:52] I18N folks Don't want implementations to lose the original character sequence [15:53] why not do a straw poll? [15:53] zakim, who is here [15:53] em, you need to end that query with '?' [15:54] zakim, who is here? [15:54] I see FrankM, PatrickS, AaronSw, EricM, Gk, ILRT, JosD, MartinH, DanC, JeremyC, Pat.Hayes, MDean, RonD, BrianM_cell, Sergey [15:54] ILRT has DaveB, JanG, DanBri [15:54] the poll is: is Andre' distinct from Andr3%A9? [15:54] whoa, that turns green on my machine [15:55] Straw poll options: YES= Leave URI reference as un-escaped Unicode; NO= convert to US-ASCII %-escaped [15:56] abs, yes, no, yes, abs, yes, yes, abs, no, abs, abs, yes, abs, abs, abs, no, yes [15:56] Eric YES(ish); GK abstain; DaveB YES; JanG YES; DanBri ABSTAIN; JOS NO; Martyn ABSTRAIN; DanC ABSTRAIN; PatH ABSTAIN; RonD ABSTRAIN; bwm NO; Sergey YES [15:57] (DanC's list above is complete, mine is not) [16:00] -AaronSw [16:01] PROPOSED: Decide "YES", with dissent on record [16:01] Also, ask for community feedback [16:01] +AaronSw [16:02] ACTION jjc/ email RFC-IG and I18N asking for feedback on this decision [16:02] Formal poll: [16:03] Formal poll options: YES= Leave URI reference as un-escaped Unicode; NO= convert to US-ASCII %-escaped [16:04] Opposed: bwm, aaronsw, josd [16:05] Abstain: frankm [16:05] All others agree or concur [16:06] those opposed will please elaborate on the reasons for their dissent in email. [16:06] Back to test cases (Item 13) [16:06] jjc: PROPOSE, approve the test cases [16:07] DaveB: notes we need to change N-triples now [16:07] jjc: DaveB's proposed text OK,. prefers NOT referencing IRI draft [16:07] we're now deciding whether to publish the test cases spec, yes? [16:08] DaveB: PROPOSE - give DaveB editorial discretion and he'll remove the IRI reference [16:09] so it's Jan that has editorial discretion; DaveB takes an action to do the writing. [16:09] ACTION DaveB/Update test cases draft, with editorial discretion [16:09] ACTION eric/Publish test cases draft as revised by DaveB [16:10] Agenda item 14: schema draft [16:10] DanBri: Current document not polished [16:11] who had actions to review? [16:11] Does it look like something we can publish? [16:11] interesting... my scrollbar doesn't even go to minimal size; so it's nice and short. [16:12] PROPOSE DanBri to publish, with editorial discretion over the next couple of days [16:12] EricM, I suggest you make the motion to publish. [16:12] APPROVED - publication of schema WD [16:13] pls action danbri to publish his WD [16:13] Those with document to publish, talk to Eric, DanBri and/or DanC [16:14] ACTION DanBri/publish schema WD [16:15] q+ danbri [16:15] * Zakim sees Danbri on the speaker queue [16:15] my only dissappointment is that we're not going to last call on anything. [16:15] General discussion: at this time, should syntax be republished? It's fairly well-baked, so with publication of the others we have a full suite. [16:15] DanBroi would like issue of serialization raised in next meeting';s agenda [16:16] -DanC [16:16] em notes we just agreeed to publish all RDF Core specs (at least in some form) [16:16] -RonD [16:16] -JosD [16:16] After hours discussion - PatH stuff [16:16] -JeremyC [16:16] -MartinH [16:16] -MDean [16:16] -FrankM [16:16] Meeting CLOSED. ----- remaining logs are occasional notes from after-meeting discussion of datatypes. ----- [16:17] -AaronSw [16:17] -ILRT [16:18] Datatypes. [16:18] * DaveB -> office [16:18] *** gk-scribe is now known as gk [16:18] *** DaveB has quit IRC (Leaving) [16:19] -EricM [16:19] *** JosD has quit IRC (EOF From client) [16:19] The value associated with a datatype literal -- is it explicit anywhere in the MT? [16:19] PatH: the value clearly exists, doesn't attach to any particular syntax [16:19] zakim, who is here? [16:19] I see PatrickS, Gk, Pat.Hayes, BrianM_cell, Sergey [16:19] *** DaveB has joined #rdfcore [16:24] Patrick now feels that the model theory is inbsufficient for his needs -- he wants Jenny age "10" to somehow infer that Jenny's age is 10 [16:24] *** Disconnected Session Close: Fri Apr 26 16:25:03 2002 Session Start: Fri Apr 26 16:25:09 2002 [16:25] *** Now talking in #rdfcore [16:25] Patrick now feela that the MT is insufficient -- he feels that Jenny age "10" shoulkd somehow infer that Jenny's age is 10. [16:26] At F2F, inline idiom (as in Jenny age "10"??) was clearly wanted. [16:27] Sergey implements by special flags in the graph [16:28] Is this an internal issue, or an information exchange issue?? [16:31] *** gk has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [16:31] PatrickS: no problems with the datatype property idiom [16:31] So the problem seems to be the "inline" idiom. [16:33] Problems with untidy literals: (a) some entailments lost, and also??? (b) fragility of model theory? [16:37] No: that "fragile" version did have tidy literals: inline idiom triple is true when the value of the literal is in the proiperty pair, even though the object node denotes the string [16:38] Problem with non-tidy literals is failure of self-entailment [16:42] Bermuda entailment: Jenny age "10 . age rdfd:datatype xsd:integer . John age [ xsd:integer "10" ] . Do Jenny and John have the same age? [16:43] Options: (a) no Bermuda entailment; (b) multiple properties; (c) untidy literals [brian? did you say that?] [16:44] Some discussion of property range being union of lexical and value spaces [17:21] No solid conclusion -- patH will take editoral pass over DT document; OatrickS will bring "Jeremy's entailment" back to the group [17:21] *** Disconnected Session Close: Fri Apr 26 17:22:28 2002