W3C

- DRAFT -

RIF Telecon 8 July 2008

8 July 2008

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Adrian Paschke, Axel Polleres, Chris Welty (ChrisW), Dave Reynolds, Harold Boley, Jos de Bruijn (josb), Leora Morgenstern, Michael Kifer, Stella Mitchell
Regrets
Gary Hallmark, Hassan Ait-Kaci, Paul Vincent, Sandro Hawke
Chair
Chris Welty
Scribe
Stella Mitchell

Contents


 

Admin

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jul/att-0037/20080701-RIF-minutes.html

<ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept Minutes from July 1 telecon

ChrisW: Any objections to accepting the minutes from last week?

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept Minutes from July 1 telecon

ChrisW: Any agenda ammendments?

Liaison

ChrisW: None of the liaison people are here

F2F11

ChrisW: Next F2F is Sept 26-27 in NY. I would like to know whether people prefer to have it at Hawthorne or at an IBM facility in Manhattan. Manhattan is more fun but more expensive. The default will be Hawthorne, so please let me know if you have a preference.

<josb> +1 Manhattan

<AxelPolleres> I prefer the lower cost options to some extent.

Action Review

<AxelPolleres> yes, I did

ChrisW: All documents are frozen except for FLD?

Harold: Yes

job: RDF/OWL is not frozen. I'm waiting for BLD freeze, and wiki was broken today. So, RDF/OWL will be ready for freeze tomorrow.

<AxelPolleres> I will also send some more comments to you by tonite, jos.

Harold: FLD is promised by this Friday, but will try for earlier

ChrisW: Action review

action-538 completed

action-537 completed

action-534 continued

action-530 will be complete by Friday, July 11

JosB: Review of FLD by next Tuesday, July 15

Document review

ChrisW: Document freeze and review schedule:

.... DTB is frozen and will be reviewed by Chris
.... BLD is frozen and will be reviewed by Leora and Jos by Friday, July 11
.... UCR is frozen and will be reviewed by Stella by Friday, July 11
.... FLD will be frozen by Friday, July 11 and reviewed by Chris and Jos by Tuesday, July 15
.... RDF/OWL will be frozen by Wednesday, July 9 and reviewed by Axel
.... PRD has been reviewed and is ready for publication

ChrisW: AdrianP, is there a person assigned to review UCR?

AdrianP: No, not yet

ChrisW: Volunteer to review UCR?

I can review UCR

<ChrisW> ACTION: Stella to review UCR for next WD [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-539 - Review UCR for next WD [on Stella Mitchell - due 2008-07-15].

<ChrisW> ACTION: Axel to review BLD for LC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-540 - Review BLD for LC [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-07-15].

<ChrisW> ACTION: jdebruij2 to review bld [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-541 - Review bld [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-07-15].

Mime Types

ChrisW: Sandro put the mime types text in BLD. Has anyone reviewed?

Harold: Yes, it looks good

ChrisW: Do you need any changes?

Harold: No, it's fine. Security is an open ended topic - I think it's a little unbalanced because he talks specifically about the danger of documents that are imported by dereferencing, but not about other things such as computation that doesn't end. He talks about one particular example, but doesn't mention other cases.

<DaveReynolds> Surely the current wording addresses both?

ChrisW: Are you talking about problems caused by implementations or by specific rule sets?

Harold: Rule sets, for example the text doesn't mention rule sets that will cause computation that doesn't end

<Harold> Sandro mentions: "Through the use of "import", it may

<Harold> also require arbitrary URI dereferencing, which may consume

<Harold> all available network resources on the consuming system or

<Harold> other systems."

DaveR: I think the current text covers that case

ChrisW: Yes, I also think it does

Harold: Ok

ChrisW: Any other comments on mime type?

Casting

ChrisW: Axel, can you summarize this issue?

AxelP: In the DTB document, section 4.3, cast and conversion functions
... casts from and to rif:iri - the question is do we want these casts, and if so how should we design them
... and there was also a question about the cast from rif:text to string. First, I will describe the rif:text issue.
... note that we have to wait until we resolve rif:text with OWL working group
... the question is: should the conversion take only the string part, or the string with the language tag
... both would be fine, currently only the string part is preserved in the cast
... Next issue is rif:iri (sections 4.3.5 and 4.3.6). A function style cast is possible in one direction if we define axiomatic equalities (4.3.5)
... but this is not possible in the other direction, because the axioms would cause inconsistencies
... I prefer functions wherever possible, and predicates only where function can't be used
... (as opposed to making from and to rif:iri both predicates)
... MichaelK and JosB said the predicate will cover both directions of casting

JosB: Yes, the function is redundant, and another argument against 4.3.5 is that it is not actually a function (one return value for a given argument) in the way that the other casting functions are, because rif:iri is not a data type

AxelP: I agree that what you say is true, but still want to leave it the way it is

JosB: It's simpler and more understandable to have the one predicate

ChrisW: Are you arguing to use this method for all cases?

JosB: No, just rif:iri

ChrisW: What about doing it for all?

JosB: It's possible, but maybe not natural because we are following XQuery, and also because they are actually functions. But I still wouldn't be completely against using predicate for all casts

AxelP: Predicates makes writing things more complicated

ChrisW: Any other opinions?

<MichaelKifer> I agree with Jos.

<ChrisW> Straw Poll: Axel +1, Jos -1

<josb> -1

<DaveReynolds> -0.1

<AxelPolleres> Strawpoll: Keep 4.3.5: +1 drop: -1

<Harold> 0

<MichaelKifer> -1

<AxelPolleres> +1

<LeoraMorgenstern> -1

-1

<AdrianP> 0

ChrisW: I will put this in the form of a proposed resolution (Jos's proposal) and let people know that we'll be voting on it at next week's telecon

JosB: What about between rif:text and strings? The issue is when casting from rif:text to string. In the current spec, you lose the language when casting from rif:text to string. But the other direction is only defined for strings that have language id embedded (with the @ notation). So, roundtripping is not possible

<AxelPolleres> casting from string to numbers is also not round-drippable... "0001"

DaveR: Casting from text to string using only the string part makes sense to me -- as long as there is also a two argument constructor to create a string, and also an extractor to get the language from the string

JosB: I think we don't have the two argument constructor

AxelP: I don't agree with the roundtripping argument because (?)..... and also then it would be complicated to get out the string part

<AdrianPa> sorry, dropped out. I'm currently travelling and do not have a stable line

JosB: I agree with DaveR's idea that we change the cast in 4.3.4 to take two arguments: the first a literal string, and the second a language tag

ChrisW: I agree that current cast doesn't really make sense

AxelP: It comes from the presentation syntax, it would be easy to implement for the presentation syntax
... yes, I agree to change 4.3.4 to 2 argument version

<ChrisW> ACTION: axel to change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-542 - Change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-07-15].

AxelP: I think we should add a shortcut for rif:text then, in the presentation syntax

JosB: That was discussed at length at F2F10, with no agreement

JosB: Also, in section 4.7.1, Axel and I disagree over the name of the extraction function. It is inconsistent with the rest. I think it should be called lang-from-text

AxelP: The others come from XQuery, this one comes from SPARQL. But I could live with JosB's naming

JosB: It's all caps in SPARQL

AxelP, ChrisW: SPARQL is not case sensitive

<ChrisW> Straw Poll +1 prefer func:lang, -1 prefer func:lang-from-text

<DaveReynolds> +0.1

<LeoraMorgenstern> -1

<josb> -1

<MichaelKifer> 0

<AxelPolleres> strawpoll: +1 lang -1 lang-from-XYZtext

<Harold> -0.1

<AxelPolleres> +1

<AdrianPa> +1

ChrisW: Default is leaving it as is

AxelP: Jos and I agreed to put editor's note on items we don't agree on, and get comments from external reviewers

<josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#func:op:add-yearMonthDuration-to-dateTime_.28adapted_from_op:add-yearMonthDuration-to-dateTime.29

ChrisW: Other issues on casting?

JosB: In the above DTB section, there is an inconsistency in names. Which is intended?

AxelP: Typo. Can I fix this even though wiki says the document should not be changed?

JosB: It's just a simple editorial change

ChrisW: Yes, you can make an editorial change

JosB: Just to confirm: the one in the schema is the correct name, right?

AxelP: Yes

MichaelK: Are grammar changes also ok?

ChrisW: Yes

<AxelPolleres> -1 to adding double-negations

ChrisW: Any other discussion on DTB?

AOB

AxelP: I would like all the access phone numbers in the agenda emails

<ChrisW> ACTION: chris to update access numbers in agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-543 - Update access numbers in agenda [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-07-15].

ChrisW: Any other business?

ChrisW: The meeting is adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: axel to change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Axel to review BLD for LC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: chris to update access numbers in agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: jdebruij2 to review bld [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jos to review bld [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Stella to review UCR for next WD [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2008/07/08 15:56:54 $