W3C

- DRAFT -

RIF Telecon 16 Oct 2007

16 Oct 2007

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, PaulVincent
Regrets
JosDeBruijn, IgorMozetic, AllenGinsberg
Chair
Chris Welty
Scribe
Jeff Pan, JeffP

Contents


 

 

<PaulaP> :)

<PaulaP> +1

<PaulaP> :)

<ChrisW> scribe: Jeff Pan

<ChrisW> scribe: JeffP

<ChrisW> scribenick: JeffP

Admin

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/att-0034/2007-10-09-rif-minutes.html

<ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 10/9 meeting

PROPOSED: Accept minutes of October 9 telecon [1]

no objection

PROPOSED: Accept minutes of F2F7 [2], [3]

No objection

ChrisW: W3C team is migrating wiki to mediawiki
... we also want to migrate

<AxelPolleres> Will the old wiki still be preserved, then no prob, we can migrate other stuff on demand if needed.

ChrisW: Proposed: only migrate the active pages

Harold: will we lose web pages in this way?

Sandro: It is just a UI, so nothing would be lost,

<sandro> (it == the 100 page limit.)

ChrisW: There are many good reasons to move over, and now we should identify the web pages that we want to migrate

sandro: do we need to move now?

ChrisW: As Harold suggested, no move until the release of the working draft

Liason

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0066.html

<sandro> That's PFPS's **DRAFT for OWL WG** of his review of BLD. It's not sent to us yet, and may change before it gets sent to us.

sandro: JeffP is also attending telecons of both WGs

F2F

BLD

<Harold> Two concerns wrt early moinmoin->mediawiki conversion: 1) Loss of version history [currently versions older than 100 steps back are invisible, very likely just a moinmoin parameter]. 2) The wiki-tr tool need to be adapted [give time to try it out in mediawiki].

<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Horn_Rules_Alternative

<Harold> RESOLVED: For WD2, change structural model so that Forall, Implies, and Atomic are three parallel subclasses of RULE (as shown on Christian's diagram labeled "BLD Rule: alternative")

<Harold> 1) For the choice ' Forall ' Var* ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) ' we still need to capture in prose that all free CLAUSE variables should be declared in Forall's Var*.

<Harold> 2) For the choice CLAUSE (to the left of the '|') we obtain a duplication of formulas expressible as ' Forall ' ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) '.

<Harold> 3) For the choice CLAUSE we are also dependent on the Prolog convention.

ChrisW: What is the new information?

(can we have an email explaining the problem?)

<scribe> ACTION: Harold to move this into the document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<scribe> ACTION: Harold to freeze the BLD editor's draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action02]

<rifbot> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/

<scribe> ACTION: sandro and csma to move the action into the tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action03]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-357 - And csma to move the action into the tracker [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-23].

ACTION 355 complete

Action 354 continue

<DaveReynolds> Action 356 done: see http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/42

Action 353 continue

Action 352 closed

<AxelPolleres> 350 is done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Sep/0184.html

Action 351 continue

Actions 349 continue

Action 348 complete

Action 350 pending discussion

Action 347 complete

Action 346 continue

Action 342 pending discussion

<ChrisW> http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/

ChrisW: which one is the BLD?

(six documents available from the above link)

http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHorn.xsd is BLD?

csma: Which one is the complete one?

sandro: put it in appendix and a stable W3C URL

<scribe> ACTION: Harold to move the complete one into the appendix [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action05]

<rifbot> Created ACTION-358 - Move the complete one into the appendix [on Harold Boley - due 2007-10-23].

csma: People should read and comment the schema

Arch - naming conventions

csma: should have been removed (?)

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0053.html

Requirements for Arch

sandro: three questions as numbered

<Harold> We could also talk here about RIF Dialect Structure: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure

<Zakim> csma, you wanted to ask what Sandro means by RIF document

<Harold> A Horn dialect has somewhat different semantics for a rule P(...) :- Q(...) than an extension with strong negation, where that same rule also 'means' its contraposition ~Q(...) :- ~P(...).

<csma> Normal forms!

sandro: not sure the answer yet

DaveR: what about built-ins?

<sandro> Sandro: Good question Harold. You could use different syntax. Otherwise there's a challenge as to how to do this.

<sandro> compare: Arch vs Component Library

<sandro> Component Library is a way to implement No-Conflict and Max-Reuse?

ChrisW: any other comments?

<Harold> Sandro, as I just reponded to Axel, we could keep the same syntax and construct a hierarchy of semantics (see Michael's lattice diagram).

sandro: Michael sent some comments ...
... blue arrows, syntactic sugar?

MichaelK: yes

<AxelPolleres> I think that the contraposition issue can exactly be addressed with the definition of "loose layering" from Jos, mentioned in this mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0056.html

MichaelK: frames are syntactic sugar

sandro: I would like to have cheap and easy syntactic sugar

MichaelK: we need to think about the scenarios

<Harold> The semantics of extension dialects can extend the meaning of syntactic constructs in base dialects.

(bye)

sandro: we were talking about another kind of round-tripping

<GaryHallmark> the most important round-tripping is using RIF as a document storage format

<csma> +1 to gary

test cases

http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Test_Cases

csma: just a subject that we never discussed
... Dave did some early work on this
... maybe we should pick it up again now

<Harold> We have three early test cases from the examples of the paper, e.g. http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHornExample.rif

sandro: a query syntax or see the print result

csma: seems that the print approach is easier

<PaulVincent> +1 to test fn for print

<Harold> I think Query is needed anyway.

<GaryHallmark> query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD

<JeffP> +1 for query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD

<Harold> Actually, we already have a Query language: the BLD Condition Language. Let's use it for test cases!

(we are ruunig out of time)

<Harold> Jeff, I also agree with the bit about print "action" for PRD.

<DaveReynolds> +1 to Sandro, all that semantics is part of the dialect

<PaulaP> one possibility would be to list all facts (data items) entailed by the program

ChrisW: AOB?

<csma> scribe

<csma> scribe

<csma> scribe

<PaulaP> bye

<AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Rule_Interchange_Through_Test-Driven_Verification_and_Validation

<PaulVincent> bye

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Harold to freeze the BLD editor's draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to move the complete one into the appendix [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Harold to move this into the document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: sandro and csma to move the action into the tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action03]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS log)
$Date: 2007/10/16 16:32:55 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/a three/three/
Found Scribe: Jeff Pan
Found Scribe: JeffP
Found ScribeNick: JeffP
Scribes: Jeff Pan, JeffP
Default Present: DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, PaulVincent
Present: DaveReynolds ChrisW +49.892.1.aaaa PaulaP Harold StellaMitchell Sandro csma +012242aabb JeffP +49.351.6.aacc AdrianP AxelPolleres LeoraMorgenstern Gary_Hallmark MichaelKifer PaulVincent
Regrets: JosDeBruijn IgorMozetic AllenGinsberg
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0065.html
Got date from IRC log name: 16 Oct 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: 355 csma harold sandro

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