See also: IRC log
csma: will next meeting be quorate due to
www2006? Who will be able to attend?
Yes from sandro, josb, EvanWallace, igor, AlexPolleres, aharth, PaulP,
DavidHirtle, JeffP, PaulaV
No from Hassan, Uli, PhillpeB, Donald_Chapin, DaveReynolds, MoZ, Allen,
mdean
csma: will go ahead with telecon
csma: wait until next meeting to accept minutes from last telecon
Paula: reminder to register for f2f, form open until June 3
<AxelPolleres> Remark: please register f2f3 the sooner the better, we need an estimate how many persons come.
No update on f2f4
<scribe> ACTION: JosDeRoo to Identify someone to do the liasion with DAWG [CONTINUED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<Donald_Chapin> SBVR - nothing new
csma: Proposed WG on web service policy has a draft charter
csma:action all review web service policy
WG charter,
for
next meeting
Axel: can't place action on whole group
to review the WS policy charter
<sandro> +1 action items must be on one person
discussion clarifies that the deadline for comments is
May 26
csma: re: WS policy charter review, post comments to list if can't be at next telecon
cmsa actions 9 and 10 are continued
PaulaP: new draft refining Frank's
proposal with some of Paula's CSF added, in progress
... plan to do more
action 12 on FrankMcCabe is continued
csma: propose adding use case specifically to cover matchng XML documents
<AxelPolleres> When is the next version due?
Allen: could add to list of use cases
rather than add to the 8 summary ones?
... take it from the public comment
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006May/0152.html
?
DavidHirtle: this is an important issue for RIF so clearer statement that RIF works with XML (e.g. in section 1.1) might help
Paula: already have a use case on working with XML data, is it not enough?
<DavidHirtle> here's the link to the XML use case: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Rule-Based_Combined_Access_to_XML_and_RDF_Data
<DavidHirtle> (also included in my email yesterday)
csma: question to GaryHallmark, does his use case fit the commenter's or Paula's?
GaryHallmark: the commenter is primarily
suggesting integrity rules
... this is very much on target for his users
GaryHallmark: current use cases are "thin" in covering this requirement
<scribe> ACTION: GaryHallmark to draft XML use case based on one submitted by reviewer and own use cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-rif-minutes.html#action02]
Sandro: suggests showing draft use case text to the reviewer
csma: anyone have comments on the second
review input (Sven Groppe)?
... he seems to be registered as a WG participant and so could review
the next draft!
<josb> Sven Groppe is not actively involved in the WG
csma: no date fixed for next draft
Sandro: reminder that members of group
should
not comment on the public list, but bring comments to the group
directly
and participate in the WG
SubTopic: Discuss new CSF/Requirements
First discussion: name for SH Prolog
csma: there was a proposal to just talk
about ordered horn clauses
Sandro: suggested not to waste more
telecon time on this issue]
Next discussion: soundness
Sandro: conclusion that soundness means
that inference procedures obey the semantics of the language
... seems to be no disagreement now
... will keep progressing this if something more is needed
Paula: suggest wait for new list of requirements and see if this one is covered
Next discussion: FOL
Next topic: Frank's GCR document
Paula: has modified the document
... worked out some new CSFs but not yet put them in document
... still a draft, hope to have something for discussion and feedback
about next week
... aim for draft ready for f2f3 meeting
<JosDeRoo> the diff seems to be http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Goals%2C_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements?action=diff&rev2=5&rev1=4
Allen: suggested modified text for first
goal, not yet posted to whole group
... would like to use notion of rule language families to help to
structure the description
<scribe> ACTION: Allen to post his proposal to the mail list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-rif-minutes.html#action03]
action 15 on AxelPolleres [CONTINUED] extend to cover WRL as well
action 16 on Hassan [DONE]
action 18 on pfps [DONE]
action 17 on Paula [CONTINUED]
csma: to Hassan, would it be interesting to apply RIFRAF to a pure constraint rule language?
Hassan: yes for a rule-based constraint language like Life, already done
Harold: will respond on Hassan's suggestions, points out that RIFRAF is only intended for phase 1
Hassan: hopes the feedback will prompt a more complete ontology
csma: call for more volunteers to apply RIFRAF to their own rule language
Sandro: suggests waiting, giving time for
RIFRAF to be modified before kicking off more
<SaidTabet> Agree with Sandro! good point
JeffP: Looking at Constraint
Interchange Format and how that would map to RIFRAF
... CIF comes from the AKT project
Harold: agree that it is best to work more on the schema before coming back to instances
MichaelKifer: tried to put RIFRAF into a
pictorial form
... lots of orthogonal features that can be combined in different ways,
hard to put into a 2D diagram
... means that not all describable languages correspond to nodes on the
diagram, just too many combinations to show
... has had (off list comments) than rule languages of interest to
members don't appear in diagram
Hassan: question to MichaelKifer, HiLog is a language it shouldn't be part of an abstract classification
MichaelKifer: no HiLog is not a language
... it's an idea of adding higher order features to first order logic
... could add comment to clarify this
... other terms like NAF and Fuzzy should also be clarified
csma: how does Michael see this classification used in the WG?
MichaelKifer: e.g. could be basis for tags which can be attached to rule set
csma: also useful to check coverage
Hassan: points out references on conceptual scaling (FAC), formal approach to forming such lattices
csma: but it is instance driven, you need a number of examples
csma: want to examine what action is
needed to follow up on the proposal from Harold et al
... has impression that there is general agreement that the approach is
interesting
... Qustion: declarations of variables, quantification, typing - is
that part of
the condition language?
Harold: layered system, starts from
positive conditions, type system supposed to be optional
... some types may be delegated to RDF Schema or OWL
csma: if have logical rules, the conclusion is expressed in the same language as the condition part, at least syntactically
Harold: started specifically with the
condition part only
... for horn the atomic clauses in conclusion are indeed the same as in
the condition part
csma: Sense that people agree with notion of starting with the condition part, calls for round table check of views
Hassan: proposal with rule condition parts is just one way to express something used in many rule languages
DaveReynolds: happy as starting point, details to work through
Sandro: yes in same way
Evan: no opinion
Andreas: yes, but not with XML syntax
DonaldChapin: would need to consult with SBVR team
Paula: yes, she and REWERSE fully support the proposal
Josb: yes
Allen: yes, a way to describe the things you are talking about in the language
csma: +1 to Allen
DavidHirtle: yes
Harold: yes!
Axel: yes, comments on details
Igor: yes, good start
Uli: yes, contains eveything needed in conditions, good start
<johnhall> yes
moz: yes
JeffP: yes
<Darko> yes
MikeDean: yes
Gary: yes
Deborah: yes
<GiorgosStoilos> yes
JosDeRoo: yes: The SPARQL Where Clause should be considered (without Filter) as the Condition language here
<AxelPolleres> Refinement for the notes: Jos said, SPARQL *WHERE clause*. IMO, we should also have full sparql queries in rule bodies
MarkusK: yes
Said: yes
Elisa: yes, mentions work on extending ODM to support rules and this subset would be a good candidate starting point for them
pfps: no, can't support it, semantics
part is nearly missing (just substitution)
... syntax is not bad, but can't stamp this document as a good start
csma: assume MichaelKifer says yes
csma: suggests trying mappings from existing languages into this proposal
pfps: the document itself is not suff. well defined to do this from just the document
csma: map both ways round and explain how their engine would interpret this condition language
MichaelKifer: respond to pfps, the
semantics is an attribute of the rule language not of the condition
language
... just defined a notion of satisfaction of conditions
csma: mapping would illuminate "what it would mean to interpret the condition language in their own rule language"
Axel volunteers to do such a mapping for WRL and DLV, check whether conditions allowed in these languages are covered by the proposal
pfps: could provide one for SWRL, in fact several are possible
Hassan: could do one
<scribe> ACTION: pfps to suggest a SWRL mapping [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-rif-minutes.html#action04]
<scribe> ACTION: Axel to suggest mapping for WRL and DLV [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-rif-minutes.html#action05]
<scribe> ACTION: Hassan to suggest mapping for ILOG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-rif-minutes.html#action06]
<scribe> ACTION: Harold to put proposal on the Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/16-rif-minutes.html#action07]
Sandro: suggests we should have an editor for the doc soonish
ACTIONS 9 and 10 on csma are [CONTINUED]
ACTION 12 on FrankMcCabe is [CONTINUED]
ACTION 15 on AxelPolleres [CONTINUED] extend to cover WRL as well
ACTION 16 on Hassan [DONE]
ACTION 18 on pfps [DONE]
ACTION 17 on Paula [CONTINUED]