17:00:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
17:00:55 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-irc
17:00:55 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:56 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
17:01:00 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star WG
17:01:08 <enrico> present+
17:01:11 <TallTed> present+
17:01:20 <adrian> present+
17:01:29 <pfps> present+
17:01:29 <ora> present+
17:01:35 <adrian> souri is excused from todays call
17:01:44 <pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:01:56 <TallTed> regrets+ souri, gkellogg
17:01:56 <gtw> present+
17:02:10 <AndyS> present+
17:02:17 <pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/16-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:02:24 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-Star WG — 2023-03-09 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230309T120000#agenda
17:02:45 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230309T120000#agenda
17:02:46 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:02:46 <agendabot> agenda+ Scribe
17:02:46 <agendabot> agenda+ Approve minutes:  -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html  &  -> https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:02:48 <agendabot> agenda+ RDF-star Working Group Process
17:02:48 <agendabot> agenda+ Quick status update of ongoing activities
17:02:50 <agendabot> agenda+ Continuation of the semantic predication discussion
17:02:53 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB (time permitting)
17:03:40 <Doerthe> Doerthe has joined #rdf-star
17:03:48 <Doerthe> present+
17:05:31 <pfps> wasn't there an action to set up a scribe list last week?
17:05:33 <TallTed> Zakim, next agendum
17:05:33 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Scribe -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:52 <adrian> Zakim: propose scribe
17:06:03 <pchampin> Zakim, pick scribe
17:06:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick scribe', pchampin
17:06:06 <gtw> Zakim, pick a scribe
17:06:06 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pfps
17:06:07 <TallTed> Zakim, pick a victim
17:06:07 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose enrico
17:06:12 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
17:06:28 <TallTed> Zakim, pick a victim
17:06:28 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose adrian
17:06:34 <olaf> present+
17:06:42 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
17:06:50 <pchampin> chair: ora
17:06:54 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
17:06:56 <TallTed> Zakim, next adgendum
17:06:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next adgendum', TallTed
17:06:59 <Dominik_T> present+
17:07:01 <TallTed> Zakim, next agendum
17:07:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approve minutes:  -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html  &  ->
17:07:01 <pchampin> scribe: adrian
17:07:02 <AZ> present+
17:07:03 <Zakim> ... https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:12 <pfps> q+
17:07:14 <adrian> ora: We have two minutes to approve
17:07:19 <adrian> ... comments, objections?
17:07:20 <ora> ack pfps
17:07:58 <adrian> pfps: There are no changes made to the minutes from 2023/03/02
17:08:09 <adrian> ... my issues are still in there
17:08:26 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:08:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:08:34 <adrian> ... I provided an updated version of the minutes for the one last week
17:08:41 <adrian> ... I communicated my concerns, there is an action icon for it
17:09:22 <adrian> ... there is no process so it's not clear who this is on
17:09:38 <TallTed> q+
17:09:45 <adrian> ... I'm not aware what is on the list of process items
17:09:48 <ora> ack TallTed
17:10:34 <pfps> q+
17:10:35 <adrian> TallTed: there are no objections to last weeks minutes
17:10:45 <enrico> +1
17:10:50 <adrian> ora: proposal to accept last weeks minutes
17:10:51 <pfps> q+ to say that there is usually a resolution for this
17:10:53 <ora> ack pfps
17:10:53 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to say that there is usually a resolution for this
17:12:29 <ora> q+
17:12:41 <adrian> TallTed: can pfps provide a script of what is expected in the process
17:12:48 <ora> ack ora
17:13:01 <adrian> pfps: I make an action icon to raise my concerns to the group about the process
17:13:16 <pfps> q+
17:13:26 <ora> ack pfps
17:13:33 <adrian> ora: I appreciate that work but I am not interested in moving backwards, moving forward instead
17:13:56 <adrian> pfps: there were WG actions that were not supported by process, that process can start now
17:14:17 <adrian> ora: let's define that resolutions so we can move forward, not editing minutes
17:14:30 <pfps> q+
17:14:36 <ora> ack pfps
17:14:50 <adrian> ... process is important but should not be a hindrance for moving forward
17:14:58 <adrian> pfps: lack of process is a hindrance for moving forward
17:15:23 <adrian> ora: it's not all about process. it's important but there can be too much process. we want the other stuff done, that's what we are chartered to do
17:15:33 <adrian> ... let's try to make the best of it. we are all improving and learning things
17:15:50 <pchampin> RESOLUTION: approve minutes from 2023-03-02
17:16:04 <pchampin> zakim, open next agendum
17:16:04 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- RDF-star Working Group Process -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:33 <TallTed> `action: <name> to <action summary>`
17:17:35 <pchampin> action: pfps to write a proposal document for a WG process
17:17:42 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #28 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/28
17:18:04 <pfps> q+
17:18:10 <ora> ack pfps
17:18:44 <adrian> pfps: I'm flabbergasted. I was expecting a proposal how to change the process
17:18:48 <pchampin> q+
17:18:53 <adrian> ora: we don't have a concrete proposal today
17:19:06 <adrian> pfps: this is a severe problem with the WG and should be fixed, before next meeting.
17:19:51 <adrian> ora: adrian and I had a discussion about organizing the work in the WG. We propose to do the following
17:20:11 <adrian> ... we need to identify the work items this WG needs to take
17:20:19 <adrian> ... we need to understand the dependencies of this work items
17:20:26 <adrian> ... not everyone needs to work on these items
17:20:39 <adrian> ... we are close to the point where we can devide ourself into taks forces
17:20:43 <adrian> ... to work on the work items
17:21:03 <adrian> ... we can have periodic WG calls to keep track of what is going on & do coordination where needed
17:21:19 <adrian> ... to us this is what we consider a pragmatic way
17:21:37 <adrian> ... compared to these calls where we don't go deep into the matter
17:21:55 <adrian> ... how do we identify all these things that need to happen. we might not know all of them right now and discover more
17:22:06 <adrian> ... but we know some things we need to work on
17:22:16 <ora> ack pchampin
17:22:42 <adrian> pchampin: lack of process and the need of process: we have to learn as we go. some of us were in WGs & have ideas
17:22:45 <adrian> ... others do not
17:23:04 <adrian> ... I have some responsibilities, maybe I was not enforcing some of them enough. like resolutions for the minuts
17:23:09 <adrian> s/minuts/minutes/
17:23:41 <ora> q?
17:23:42 <adrian> ... we need to move forward and build our own process. Peter you raise some needs, let's build them as we go instead of setting up everything upfront
17:23:48 <pfps> q+
17:23:54 <ora> ack pfps
17:24:11 <adrian> pfps: that is fine except we have changes to do in 22 documents. it's unclear what the status of these changes are
17:24:21 <ora> q+
17:24:23 <adrian> ... and wether the WG even thought about the changes to be made
17:24:33 <TallTed> q+
17:24:36 <pchampin> q+
17:24:41 <ora> ack ora
17:24:47 <adrian> ... when we go to the first public draft someone needs to go through them and see are these changes the WG wants
17:25:01 <adrian> ora: I don't disagree, every change should be accompanied with some resolution from a prior meeting
17:25:21 <adrian> ... where do we keep track of resolutions that were made? do we have a collection of them?
17:25:34 <adrian> TallTed: they don't get collected, they just remain in the minutes and can be reviewed there
17:25:52 <pfps> at one time there was a way to finding all the resolutions on one page - this may have been something special that someone (Ivan?) did
17:26:02 <adrian> ... in past experience there is an issue raised, a discussion, a concensus about the solution. which turns into a PR and/or action which enacts that resolution.
17:26:13 <adrian> ... the action/PR is closed when it is done
17:26:30 <pchampin> q-
17:26:33 <adrian> ... first public working draft does not reflect anything necessarily of a groups opinion
17:26:42 <ora> ack TallTed
17:26:48 <pchampin> I was going to make exactly that remark: a working draft does not imply consensus of the WG
17:26:50 <adrian> ... it's showing activity
17:26:54 <ora> q+
17:27:20 <adrian> ... we have a lot of work done by some of the WG that cleaned up the markup. those changes do not require group approval at all I think
17:27:34 <adrian> ... in my opinion we could publish all of them today as first working draft.
17:28:00 <ora> ack ora
17:28:10 <adrian> ... we can add a disclaimer that says this does not reflect anything in particular
17:28:30 <adrian> ora: let's write down the process step for us: issue, discussion, PR, etc.
17:28:45 <adrian> ... this does not require fixing meeting minutes typos etc.
17:29:12 <adrian> ... I ask for a volunteer to write down this template/process
17:29:54 <adrian> q+
17:30:02 <ora> ack adrian
17:30:10 <pfps> the working group did discuss creating FPWDs and did mention what is to be done, but there was no resolution, and what is to be done was vague
17:30:32 <TallTed> action: TallTed to draft working process from issue, to discussion, to consensus of action, to PR, to completion
17:30:34 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #29 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/29
17:30:40 <afs> q+
17:30:48 <adrian> adrian: we only heard opinions from peter so far, what are other opinions? there are many people in the group
17:30:49 <ora> ack afs
17:31:12 <adrian> afs: process needs to be sorted out, but not a very heavyweight process. we cannot bring every single little change to the WG for resolution
17:31:22 <adrian> ... I think the role of an editor is to bring a document to the WG
17:31:30 <adrian> ... we are castodians of a document
17:31:40 <ora> s/castodians/custodians
17:33:09 <pfps> q+
17:33:12 <adrian> ... we won't find the consensus when the issue is raised. we will have a feeling if it is a working group discussion or of it's just something simple to fix. We act as custodians, every change needs to be judged.
17:33:16 <ora> ack pfps
17:33:36 <afs> afs: balance between custodians and change agent.
17:33:36 <pchampin> q?
17:33:40 <pchampin> q+
17:33:47 <ora> ack pchampin
17:33:50 <adrian> pfps: there was no message about the recording raised in the beginning
17:34:23 <adrian> pchampin: I checked, the feature is available and cannot be disabled. I think the message only appears when someone clicks on it on their own side
17:34:48 <pfps> From the process document:  No-one may take an audio or video recording of a meeting, or retain an automated transcript, unless the intent is announced at the start of the meeting, and no-one participating in the recorded portion of the meeting withholds consent. If consent is withheld by anyone, recording/retention must not occur. The announcement must cover: (a) who will have access to the recording or transcript and (b) the
17:34:48 <pfps> purpose/use of it and (c) how it will be retained (e.g. privately, in a cloud service) and for how long.
17:34:57 <adrian> ora: we can't take actions to prevent that. peter you feel strongly that this message is repeated
17:35:07 <adrian> pfps: it's not my opinion, it's part of the W3C process.
17:35:49 <gtw> q+
17:36:11 <adrian> ... last time I said I'm with it as long as it is properly scoped
17:36:40 <ora> ack gtw
17:36:45 <adrian> ora: this time we are compliant
17:36:49 <pchampin> is live captioning considered "recording"? as it does not keep anything?
17:37:05 <adrian> gtw: my interpretation is this is only about the retention. not about the real-time usage
17:37:58 <pchampin> scrive+
17:38:11 <pchampin> scribe+
17:38:15 <pchampin> s/scrive+//
17:38:26 <adrian> adrian: it can be downloaded in zoom. my interpretation is unless someone saves it, it does not apply
17:38:31 <pchampin> adrian: you are offered to save the transcript at the end; so the process apply if anyone decides to save it
17:38:45 <pchampin> ... at leat that's my reading
17:38:49 <adrian> ora: I think we are fully in compliance so far
17:38:56 <pchampin> scribe-
17:39:17 <adrian> ... this is in the minutes, everyone in the WG is aware of it
17:39:26 <adrian> ... I don't want to spend more time on it as we are not out of compliance
17:39:26 <pfps> OK, I guess
17:40:18 <adrian> ... does anybody has an objection that we add a resolution that every WG member has to be in compliance of this part of the process
17:40:35 <pchampin> PROPOSAL: every WG participant has to comply with W3C process by *not* saving the transcript generated by live captioning
17:40:46 <pfps> +1
17:40:50 <adrian> +1
17:40:51 <ora> +1
17:40:52 <pchampin> +1
17:40:52 <olaf> +1
17:40:53 <enrico> +1
17:40:55 <TallTed> +1
17:40:56 <Dominik_T> +1
17:40:57 <Doerthe> +1
17:40:58 <gtw> +1
17:41:07 <pchampin> RESOLUTION: every WG participant has to comply with W3C process by *not* saving the transcript generated by live captioning
17:41:11 <AZ> +1
17:41:17 <afs> +1
17:41:30 <pchampin> zakim, next agendum
17:41:30 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Quick status update of ongoing activities -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:41:31 subtopic: Canonicalization
17:42:52 <adrian> ora: Adrian, piere-antoine and myself met with the RDF Canonicalization  group chair this morning. To discuss collaboration with them and timelines. They start horizontal reviews soon. candidate recommendation not later than september
17:44:28 <adrian> pchampin: there is a dependency between their work and ours. they need a canonical form of NQuads. Ntriples is underspecified. there seems to be quite some consensus that the lack or underspecification are bugs
17:44:36 <adrian> ... it's more an oversight most likely.
17:44:39 <afs> q+
17:44:47 <adrian> ... the proposal is to fix this bug ASAP
17:44:58 <adrian> ... and have a public working draft
17:45:13 <adrian> ... the draft does not reflect WG consensus, it is not too much commitment from us
17:45:16 <ora> ack afs
17:45:30 <adrian> ... that's what the Canonicalization WG would like to see happen
17:45:35 <afs> https://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#func-datatype
17:45:45 <adrian> afs: similar situation in SPARQL query
17:46:04 <adrian> ... it says "this part gets adopted when the other WGs go to REC"
17:46:40 <adrian> ... we could make Canonicalization WGs live easier by doing a deep review as soon as we can
17:46:49 <pfps> i propose that the WG consider fixing the problems with canonicalization in n-triples and n-quads as part of addressing errata in the existing documents
17:47:02 <adrian> ora: I'm not opposed to a review
17:47:22 <pchampin> FTR, the corresponding PR in rdf-n-quads is https://github.com/w3c/rdf-n-quads/pull/17
17:47:45 <adrian> pfps: that problem should be fixed. we should make sure it gets fixed
17:48:20 <adrian> ... would be great to get the RDF Canonicalization get to look at it so we get it right
17:48:30 <adrian> pchampin: they did write it so that should not be a problem
17:48:53 <pchampin> agenda?
17:49:25 <pchampin> q+
17:49:29 <pfps> q+
17:49:35 <adrian> ora: I'm still working on use-cases at our end here. I hope to submit those in the next couple of weeks
17:49:44 <ora> ack pchampin
17:49:45 subtopic: short names
17:49:51 <adrian> pchampin: we have 6 minutes left, we should review the open actions
17:49:54 <pfps> q-
17:50:04 <adrian> ... and make a habit of having this as a regular point in the agenda
17:50:28 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Aaction
17:50:45 <pchampin> q+
17:50:52 <pchampin> #4
17:50:53 <ghurlbot> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/4 -> Action 4 decide on the short names of the specifications (on pchampin) due 22 Dec 2022
17:51:37 <pfps> I added the "complete" tag as an attempt to improve process on actions
17:51:39 <adrian> pchampin: I propose to close it.
17:51:42 <TallTed> q+
17:51:56 <pchampin> q-
17:52:02 <adrian> ack TallTed
17:52:03 <pchampin> ghurlbot, close #4
17:52:04 <ghurlbot> Closed -> action #4 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/4
17:52:47 <adrian> TallTed: reviewing action items is best done early in the meeting, following approval of minutes.
17:52:56 <adrian> ... allows to claim victory & ask for help. should be done fast
17:53:05 <pchampin> +1 TallTed
17:53:22 <ora> +1 TallTed
17:53:44 <adrian> ora: I'll work on mine until next week
17:54:01 <pchampin> q+
17:54:08 <enrico> q+
17:54:13 <ora> ack pchampin
17:54:40 <TallTed> q+
17:54:41 <adrian> pchampin: how do we want to go forward with task forces? maybe we should organise a call with those interested in the semantics
17:54:44 <enrico> q-
17:54:51 <adrian> ... a parallel call for editors has been self organized already
17:55:04 <adrian> ... maybe enrico or anybody else interested could self-organize that
17:55:11 <adrian> ... I think that could happen offline
17:55:32 <adrian> enrico: I can send a message to the mailing list and do a call of like one hour
17:55:38 <ora> ack TallTed
17:55:44 <adrian> ora: I'm fine with that
17:56:27 <adrian> TallTed: it might be worthwile doing more publicity. We are working on RDF 1.2 and SPARQL 1.2, I don't think the general public realizes or appriciates that yet
17:56:35 <adrian> s/appriciates/appreciates/
17:56:50 <adrian> ... some new people might come back once they realize that
17:57:03 <adrian> ora: good comment, let us pick that up next week.
17:57:21 <adrian> ... we know for sure that we need to work on the semantics so it would be good if enrico could organize a call
17:58:48 <pchampin> ghurlbot, enrico = franconi
17:58:48 <ghurlbot> pchampin, OK.
17:59:02 <pchampin> action: enrico to organize a separate call about semantics
17:59:04 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #30 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/30
17:59:28 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:59:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:59:36 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
18:00:09 <TallTed> s| https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html| https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html|
18:00:36 <TallTed> s|minutes.html & -> https:|minutes.html & https:|
18:03:08 <TallTed> s/some new people might come back once they realize that/some past participants might come back once they realize that we're not *only* doing RDF-star and related./
18:03:16 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:03:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:05:35 <TallTed> s/WGs live easier/WGs lives easier/
18:06:11 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:06:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:11:10 <TallTed> barring objection, I will dismiss the bots, who will finalize their parts of the minutes
18:20:23 <TallTed> zakim, end meeting
18:20:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been enrico, TallTed, adrian, pfps, ora, gtw, AndyS, Doerthe, olaf, Dominik_T, AZ
18:20:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:20:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
18:20:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:20:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
18:21:37 <TallTed> s/minutes.html & -> /minutes.html & /
18:21:45 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:21:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:22:19 <TallTed> s/minutes.html \& -> /minutes.html \& /
18:22:27 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:22:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:23:15 <TallTed> s| https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html & -> https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html| https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html & https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html|
18:23:22 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:23:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:25:04 <TallTed> s/& ->/&/
18:25:11 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:25:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
18:25:20 <pchampin> let it go, TallTed, I'll patch this manually :)
18:25:56 <TallTed> fair enough.
18:25:59 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
18:25:59 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
18:25:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pfps to write a proposal document for a WG process [1]
18:25:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-irc#T17-17-35
18:25:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: TallTed to draft working process from issue, to discussion, to consensus of action, to PR, to completion [2]
18:25:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-irc#T17-30-32
18:25:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: enrico to organize a separate call about semantics [3]
18:25:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/03/09-rdf-star-irc#T17-59-02