17:01:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
17:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-irc
17:01:38 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
17:02:14 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
17:02:14 <AndyS> zakim, start this meeting
17:02:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:02:16 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), AndyS
17:02:44 <gtw> present+
17:02:44 <AndyS> meeting: RDF-star WG 2023-03-02
17:02:59 <AndyS> present+
17:03:03 <AndyS> present+ ora
17:03:08 <AndyS> present+ ktk
17:03:55 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-Star WG — 2023-03-02 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Mar/0002.html
17:04:02 <pfps> present+
17:04:10 <AZ> present+
17:04:19 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
17:04:24 <olaf> present+
17:04:27 <TallTed> present+ ora ktk
17:04:30 <TallTed> present+
17:04:34 <enrico> present+
17:04:39 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
17:05:06 <TallTed> agenda:
17:05:08 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230302T120000#agenda
17:05:09 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:05:09 <agendabot> agenda+ Pick scribe
17:05:09 <agendabot> agenda+ Approve last week's minutes:  -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:05:09 <agendabot> agenda+ Updates on WG-organization (raised last week)
17:05:10 <agendabot> agenda+ Quick status update of ongoing activities
17:05:13 <agendabot> agenda+ Report from conversations with I18N
17:05:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Continuation of the semantic predication discussion
17:05:18 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB (time permitting)
17:05:28 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-Star WG — 2023-03-02 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230302T120000#agenda
17:06:16 <Doerthe> Doerthe has joined #rdf-star
17:06:26 <Doerthe> present+
17:07:19 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
17:07:45 <Dominik_T> present+
17:08:27 <TallTed> Zakim, agenda?
17:08:27 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
17:08:28 <Zakim> 1. Pick scribe [from agendabot]
17:08:28 <Zakim> 2. Approve last week's minutes:  -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
17:08:28 <Zakim> 3. Updates on WG-organization (raised last week) [from agendabot]
17:08:29 <Zakim> 4. Quick status update of ongoing activities [from agendabot]
17:08:29 <Zakim> 5. Report from conversations with I18N [from agendabot]
17:08:29 <Zakim> 6. Continuation of the semantic predication discussion [from agendabot]
17:08:29 <Zakim> 7. AOB (time permitting) [from agendabot]
17:08:35 <pfps> scribe pfps
17:08:48 <TallTed> scribe+ pfps
17:08:57 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:08:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Pick scribe -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:09:13 <pfps> zakim, agendum 2
17:09:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agendum 2', pfps
17:09:21 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:09:21 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, pfps
17:09:42 <TallTed> Zakim, close agendum 1
17:09:42 <Zakim> agendum 1, Pick scribe, closed
17:09:43 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:43 <Zakim> 2. Approve last week's minutes:  -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
17:09:45 <pfps> antoine: having a rotation of scribes would be useful
17:09:51 <TallTed> Zakim, next agendum

17:09:58 <pfps> +1 to antoine
17:10:16 <pfps> ora: +1
17:10:39 <gtw> +1 to that. The last SPARQL WG had a scribe list on the wiki, and you just shifted your name down to the bottom when you scribed.
17:10:47 <TallTed> q+
17:11:15 <ora> ack TallTed
17:11:30 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
17:11:57 <pfps> tallted: the scribe volunteer is able to interrupt at any time to ensure good recording
17:12:01 <AndyS> zakim, who is here?
17:12:01 <Zakim> Present: ktk, ora, gtw, AndyS, pfps, AZ, olaf, TallTed, enrico, Doerthe, Dominik_T
17:12:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, Dominik_T, Doerthe, enrico, AZ, olaf, RRSAgent, pfps, Zakim, ora, TallTed, AndyS, Timothe, VladimirAlexiev, driib, ghurlbot, csarven, Tpt, ktk, gtw, rhiaro,
17:12:03 <Zakim> ... agendabot, pchampin
17:12:42 <ora> q?
17:12:43 <pfps> tallted: put everyone in the list in the scribe candidates, when someone scribes they are put at the back, pick from the front
17:12:50 <AZ> +1 to Ted
17:12:57 <pfps> ora: I will make the initial list
17:13:20 <pfps> action on rdfguy: make the initial scribe list
17:13:20 <ghurlbot> Cannot create action. Validation failed. (Invalid user for this repository?)
17:13:26 <pfps> action rdfguy: make the initial scribe list
17:13:33 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #25 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/25

17:09:51 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Approve last week's minutes:  -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:25 <pfps> pfps: I have an objection for the minutes.  The biggest is that the semantic discussion is not an item in the minutes.
17:15:02 <pfps> ora: there has been discussion on the mailing list on fixing minutes
17:15:02 <TallTed> q+
17:15:25 <AndyS> q+
17:15:43 <pfps> ora: the working group needs to figure out how to do minutes better, with post-editing of source data (not HTML)
17:15:59 <ora> ack TallTed
17:16:14 <pfps> tallted: can the chairs please use the queue more?
17:16:54 <pfps> tallted: typically the staff representative has the ability to edit the log or the HTML or both
17:17:22 <pfps> tallted: having a WG member actually doing the editing to pass back to the rep is helpful
17:17:46 <ora> ack AndyS
17:17:48 <pfps> tallted: there is a link to the processed minutes at the end of the IRC log that WG members can use
17:17:58 <ktk> q+
17:18:06 <TallTed> this is today's raw log: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-irc
17:18:30 <ora> ack ktk
17:18:39 <pfps> andy: WG members may not have access to the raw log
17:19:47 <pfps> adrian:  i'll make sure that more information is available
17:20:12 <pfps> ora: can we provisionally accept the minutes
17:20:37 <pfps> pfps: I would prefer waiting because there is a missing heading
17:21:02 <TallTed> `topic:` (and `subtopic:`) does set a heading in the minutes. I had thought that zakim "taking up" an agendum did the same; that appears not to be so; however, the agendum is usable as a reminder of what to set the topic to.
17:21:48 <TallTed> q?
17:22:01 <AZ> pfps: there are a number of issues in the minutes that need to be fixed
17:22:06 <pfps> ora: we'll defer accepting until next week so that the problems can be fixed
17:22:30 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:22:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:22:38 <pfps> action pfps: send message so that ora and adrian can have the minutes fixed up
17:22:43 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:22:44 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #26 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/26
17:22:47 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:22:47 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Updates on WG-organization (raised last week) -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:23:27 <ktk> q+
17:23:34 <ora> ack ktk
17:24:47 <pfps> adrian:  I talked to pierre-antoine - the transcript is done for accessibility but the transcript cannot be permanently stored
17:24:50 <pfps> q+
17:24:56 <TallTed> s|agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230302T120000#agenda||
17:24:56 <TallTed> s|agenda:|agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230302T120000#agenda|
17:25:02 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:25:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:25:41 <ora> ack pfps
17:25:41 <TallTed> s/scribe pfps//
17:25:41 <pfps> pfps:  I don't understand why the message didn't show up until about 12:20
17:26:08 <TallTed> q+
17:26:33 <ora> ack TallTed
17:26:54 <ora> q+
17:26:59 <pfps> tallted: can we all try to get along with the less-than-perfect technology
17:27:03 <ktk> The link I posted is here: org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:27:03 <ktk> 18:22  * RRSAgent records action 2
17:27:10 <ora> ack ora
17:27:11 <ktk> s/posted/mentioned/
17:27:28 <pfps> ora: what is your objection
17:27:40 <ktk> Sorry about that link was broken: https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#meeting-recording
17:27:55 <TallTed> s|here: org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html|here: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html|
17:28:08 <pfps> more or less that there is no chance of editing to remove problematic information
17:28:28 <TallTed> s/more or less/pfps: more or less/
17:28:37 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:28:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:28:50 <pfps> ora: if the only use is for better understanding then is that acceptable
17:28:58 <ktk> q+
17:28:59 <pfps> pfps: OK. I'll withdraw my objection
17:29:12 <ora> ack ktk
17:29:37 <TallTed> s/action on rdfguy: make the initial scribe list//
17:29:45 <pfps> adrian: at each meeting there will be a no recordings without consent announcement
17:29:47 <TallTed> q+
17:30:10 <ora> ack TallTed
17:30:29 <pfps> tallted: edits can be made to the minutes by anyone to fix problems
17:30:36 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:30:36 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Quick status update of ongoing activities -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:30:50 <pfps> q+
17:30:56 <ora> ack pfps
17:31:00 subtopic: Use Cases Process
17:31:14 <pfps> pfps: there have been several messages about use cases proposing a methodology
17:31:29 <pfps> pfps: if the WG is fine with that we can start implementing it
17:31:43 <pfps> ora: any comments?
17:32:02 <ktk> q+
17:32:09 <pfps> pfps: I think I'll need help from pierre-antoine
17:32:09 <ora> ack ktk
17:32:54 <ora> q+
17:32:58 <pfps> adrian: there is a github template for use cases
17:32:58 <ora> ack ora
17:33:18 <ktk> Github Use case template: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/new/choose -> "Use case"
17:33:30 <pfps> ora: i've been writing up use cases - it is not trivial
17:34:13 <pfps> pfps: one question is how to continue with an issue use case
17:34:40 <pfps> action pfps: present a use case process to the working group
17:34:42 <ghurlbot> Created -> action #27 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/27
17:35:27 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:35:27 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Report from conversations with I18N -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:43 <TallTed> topic: Report from conversations with I18N
17:35:55 <pfps> ora: there just was a discussion with I18N group
17:36:10 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:36:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:36:53 <pfps> ora: the group is offering to help us
17:37:05 <pfps> ora: the earlier we can provide information to them the better
17:37:07 <TallTed> s/topic: Report from conversations with I18N//
17:37:43 <pfps> ora: one question is how to determine how much the working group will do in this space
17:37:50 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:37:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:37:58 <pfps> ora: we could take the JSON-LD work and adapt it
17:38:05 <pfps> ora:  there are questions of backward compatibility
17:38:21 <pfps> ora:  from the process standpoint is this something that is out of charter
17:38:53 <pfps> ora: my view is that this is a grey area and the working group needs to decide
17:39:26 <pfps> adrian: if we don't do it in 1.2 then there will be pressure for 1.3
17:39:58 <pfps> andy: it is quite early in the cycle
17:40:13 <ktk> For those like me who don't have a clear understanding of the problem, this was helpful for me https://w3c.github.io/i18n-discuss/notes/i18n-action-612.html
17:40:35 <AndyS> s/andy/AndyS/g
17:41:03 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:41:03 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Continuation of the semantic predication discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:41:07 <TallTed> s/an agendum did the same; that appears not to be so; however, the agendum is usable as a reminder of what to set the topic to/an agendum did the same; that appears to be so, as evidenced later in today's minutes.../
17:42:07 <TallTed> `andys` is equivalent to `AndyS`
17:42:13 <pfps> andy: things may have moved on from the discussion that was mentioned
17:42:14 <ktk> Adrian is ktk
17:42:58 <AndyS> s/andy/andys/
17:43:25 <pfps> ora: there is a lot to be discussed about semantic predication
17:43:35 <enrico> q+
17:43:39 <ora> ack enrico
17:44:23 <pfps> enrico: i have a new proposal on semantic predication
17:44:37 <TallTed> regrets+ pachampin
17:44:37 <TallTed> chair+ ora
17:44:37 <TallTed> chair+ ktk
17:44:47 <TallTed> topic: new proposal on semantic predication
17:45:23 <TallTed> s/topic/subtopic/
17:45:34 <pfps> enrico: - presentation of slide that will be sent to mailing list later
17:46:31 <pfps> enrico: semantic predication is fully transparent but does not require assertion
17:46:41 <pfps> enrico: semantic predication is about events
17:46:50 <ora> q+
17:48:12 <Doerthe> q+
17:48:19 <pfps> enrico: syntactic predication is about triples - requires variable transparency
17:48:32 <pfps> enrico: syntactic predication is not about events
17:49:24 <ora> ack ora
17:49:24 <TallTed> `rdf:type :{event-type}` will have to be coined for every event type? or added to every ontology now in the wild?
17:49:45 <pfps> enrico: modal/epistemic predication is a variation of syntactic predication (example is attribution, not belief)
17:50:16 <pfps> ora: what would the abstract syntax (metamodel) look like?
17:50:53 <pfps> ora: what is the difference between semantic predication and modal predication?
17:50:58 <TallTed> q+ to ask for more real-world examples, especially examples which cover some real-world existing data, perhaps digging into DBpedia or UniProt or Wikidata ... and about {event-type} concern above
17:51:55 <ora> q+
17:52:17 <pfps> enrico: there is no abstract syntax for triples so a new notion is needed - embedded triples
17:54:20 <pfps> enrico: it is possible to transform RDF-star graphs to RDF 1.1 graphs
17:55:41 <pfps> enrico: care needs to be taken to preserve monotonicity
17:55:49 <ora> ack Doerthe
17:56:10 <ktk> I'm afraid we are at the end of our slot already
17:56:34 <ktk> could those with question write them down either here, list or on their own so we could start with them next time?
17:56:40 <pfps> Doerthe: what about logically-equivalent statements?
17:56:48 <AZ> enrico's presentation requires discussion but we don't have time now
17:57:17 <pfps> enrico: this would be done in a language that supports more powerful constructs, such as OWL
17:58:10 <TallTed> TallTed: I was going ask for more real-world examples, especially examples which cover some real-world existing data, perhaps digging into DBpedia or UniProt or Wikidata ... and about `rdf:type :{event-type}` will have to be coined for every event type? or added to every ontology now in the wild?
17:58:15 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:58:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:58:22 <pfps> enrico: I will start an email thread on this
17:58:50 <pfps> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:58:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html pfps
17:59:33 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
17:59:54 <TallTed> this is the thing that would be edited/cleaned: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-irc
18:00:36 <TallTed> which would then be reprocessed to produce the "pretty" minutes
18:01:48 <TallTed> any objections to letting zakim & rrsagent close things up?
18:02:14 <TallTed> seeing none...
18:02:14 <TallTed> zakim, end meeting
18:02:14 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ktk, ora, gtw, AndyS, pfps, AZ, olaf, TallTed, enrico, Doerthe, Dominik_T
18:02:16 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
18:02:23 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:02:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
18:02:48 <TallTed> RRSAgent, bye
18:02:48 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
18:02:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: rdfguy to make the initial scribe list [1]
18:02:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-irc#T17-13-26
18:02:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pfps to send message so that ora and adrian can have the minutes fixed up [2]
18:02:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-irc#T17-22-38
18:02:48 <RRSAgent> ACTION: pfps to present a use case process to the working group [3]
18:02:48 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-irc#T17-34-40