IRC log of rdf-star on 2023-03-02
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:01:34 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
- 17:01:38 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-irc
- 17:01:38 [olaf]
- olaf has joined #rdf-star
- 17:02:14 [AZ]
- AZ has joined #rdf-star
- 17:02:14 [AndyS]
- zakim, start this meeting
- 17:02:14 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 17:02:16 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), AndyS
- 17:02:44 [gtw]
- present+
- 17:02:44 [AndyS]
- meeting: RDF-star WG 2023-03-02
- 17:02:59 [AndyS]
- present+
- 17:03:03 [AndyS]
- present+ ora
- 17:03:08 [AndyS]
- present+ ktk
- 17:03:55 [TallTed]
- TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-Star WG — 2023-03-02 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2023Mar/0002.html
- 17:04:02 [pfps]
- present+
- 17:04:10 [AZ]
- present+
- 17:04:19 [enrico]
- enrico has joined #rdf-star
- 17:04:24 [olaf]
- present+
- 17:04:27 [TallTed]
- present+ ora ktk
- 17:04:30 [TallTed]
- present+
- 17:04:34 [enrico]
- present+
- 17:04:39 [Dominik_T]
- Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
- 17:05:06 [TallTed]
- agenda:
- 17:05:08 [TallTed]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230302T120000#agenda
- 17:05:09 [agendabot]
- clear agenda
- 17:05:09 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Pick scribe
- 17:05:09 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Approve last week's minutes: -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html">https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html
- 17:05:09 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Updates on WG-organization (raised last week)
- 17:05:10 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Quick status update of ongoing activities
- 17:05:13 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Report from conversations with I18N
- 17:05:15 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Continuation of the semantic predication discussion
- 17:05:18 [agendabot]
- agenda+ AOB (time permitting)
- 17:05:28 [TallTed]
- TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-Star WG — 2023-03-02 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230302T120000#agenda
- 17:06:16 [Doerthe]
- Doerthe has joined #rdf-star
- 17:06:26 [Doerthe]
- present+
- 17:07:19 [Dominik_T]
- Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
- 17:07:45 [Dominik_T]
- present+
- 17:08:27 [TallTed]
- Zakim, agenda?
- 17:08:27 [Zakim]
- I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
- 17:08:28 [Zakim]
- 1. Pick scribe [from agendabot]
- 17:08:28 [Zakim]
- 2. Approve last week's minutes: -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html">https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
- 17:08:28 [Zakim]
- 3. Updates on WG-organization (raised last week) [from agendabot]
- 17:08:29 [Zakim]
- 4. Quick status update of ongoing activities [from agendabot]
- 17:08:29 [Zakim]
- 5. Report from conversations with I18N [from agendabot]
- 17:08:29 [Zakim]
- 6. Continuation of the semantic predication discussion [from agendabot]
- 17:08:29 [Zakim]
- 7. AOB (time permitting) [from agendabot]
- 17:08:35 [pfps]
- scribe pfps
- 17:08:48 [TallTed]
- scribe+ pfps
- 17:08:57 [pfps]
- zakim, next agendum
- 17:08:57 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Pick scribe -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:09:13 [pfps]
- zakim, agendum 2
- 17:09:13 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'agendum 2', pfps
- 17:09:21 [pfps]
- zakim, next agendum
- 17:09:21 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 was just opened, pfps
- 17:09:42 [TallTed]
- Zakim, close agendum 1
- 17:09:42 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, Pick scribe, closed
- 17:09:43 [Zakim]
- I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:09:43 [Zakim]
- 2. Approve last week's minutes: -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html">https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html [from agendabot]
- 17:09:45 [pfps]
- antoine: having a rotation of scribes would be useful
- 17:09:51 [TallTed]
- Zakim, next agendum
- 17:09:58 [pfps]
- +1 to antoine
- 17:10:16 [pfps]
- ora: +1
- 17:10:39 [gtw]
- +1 to that. The last SPARQL WG
had a scribe list on the wiki, and you just shifted your name down to
the bottom when you scribed.
- 17:10:47 [TallTed]
- q+
- 17:11:15 [ora]
- ack TallTed
- 17:11:30 [Souri]
- Souri has joined #rdf-star
- 17:11:57 [pfps]
- tallted: the scribe volunteer is able to interrupt at any time to ensure good recording
- 17:12:01 [AndyS]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:12:01 [Zakim]
- Present: ktk, ora, gtw, AndyS, pfps, AZ, olaf, TallTed, enrico, Doerthe, Dominik_T
- 17:12:03 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Souri,
Dominik_T, Doerthe, enrico, AZ, olaf, RRSAgent, pfps, Zakim, ora,
TallTed, AndyS, Timothe, VladimirAlexiev, driib, ghurlbot, csarven, Tpt,
ktk, gtw, rhiaro,
- 17:12:03 [Zakim]
- ... agendabot, pchampin
- 17:12:42 [ora]
- q?
- 17:12:43 [pfps]
- tallted: put everyone in the list in the scribe candidates, when someone scribes they are put at the back, pick from the front
- 17:12:50 [AZ]
- +1 to Ted
- 17:12:57 [pfps]
- ora: I will make the initial list
- 17:13:20 [pfps]
- action on rdfguy: make the initial scribe list
- 17:13:20 [ghurlbot]
- Cannot create action. Validation failed. (Invalid user for this repository?)
- 17:13:26 [pfps]
- action rdfguy: make the initial scribe list
- 17:13:33 [ghurlbot]
- Created -> action #25 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/25
- 17:09:51 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- Approve last week's minutes: -> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html">https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html
https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from
agendabot]
- 17:14:25 [pfps]
- pfps: I have an objection for the minutes. The biggest is that the semantic discussion is not an item in the minutes.
- 17:15:02 [pfps]
- ora: there has been discussion on the mailing list on fixing minutes
- 17:15:02 [TallTed]
- q+
- 17:15:25 [AndyS]
- q+
- 17:15:43 [pfps]
- ora: the working group needs to figure out how to do minutes better, with post-editing of source data (not HTML)
- 17:15:59 [ora]
- ack TallTed
- 17:16:14 [pfps]
- tallted: can the chairs please use the queue more?
- 17:16:54 [pfps]
- tallted: typically the staff representative has the ability to edit the log or the HTML or both
- 17:17:22 [pfps]
- tallted: having a WG member actually doing the editing to pass back to the rep is helpful
- 17:17:46 [ora]
- ack AndyS
- 17:17:48 [pfps]
- tallted: there is a link to the processed minutes at the end of the IRC log that WG members can use
- 17:17:58 [ktk]
- q+
- 17:18:06 [TallTed]
- this is today's raw log: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-irc
- 17:18:30 [ora]
- ack ktk
- 17:18:39 [pfps]
- andy: WG members may not have access to the raw log
- 17:19:47 [pfps]
- adrian: i'll make sure that more information is available
- 17:20:12 [pfps]
- ora: can we provisionally accept the minutes
- 17:20:37 [pfps]
- pfps: I would prefer waiting because there is a missing heading
- 17:21:02 [TallTed]
- `topic:` (and `subtopic:`)
does set a heading in the minutes. I had thought that zakim "taking up"
an agendum did the same; that appears not to be so; however, the
agendum is usable as a reminder of what to set the topic to.
- 17:21:48 [TallTed]
- q?
- 17:22:01 [AZ]
- pfps: there are a number of issues in the minutes that need to be fixed
- 17:22:06 [pfps]
- ora: we'll defer accepting until next week so that the problems can be fixed
- 17:22:30 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:22:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 17:22:38 [pfps]
- action pfps: send message so that ora and adrian can have the minutes fixed up
- 17:22:43 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 17:22:44 [ghurlbot]
- Created -> action #26 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/26
- 17:22:47 [pfps]
- zakim, next agendum
- 17:22:47 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- Updates on WG-organization (raised last week) -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:23:27 [ktk]
- q+
- 17:23:34 [ora]
- ack ktk
- 17:24:47 [pfps]
- adrian: I talked to pierre-antoine - the transcript is done for accessibility but the transcript cannot be permanently stored
- 17:24:50 [pfps]
- q+
- 17:24:56 [TallTed]
- s|agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230302T120000#agenda||
- 17:24:56 [TallTed]
- s|agenda:|agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8a431cda-d732-4c77-a896-be3a6e4a0028/20230302T120000#agenda|
- 17:25:02 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:25:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 17:25:41 [ora]
- ack pfps
- 17:25:41 [TallTed]
- s/scribe pfps//
- 17:25:41 [pfps]
- pfps: I don't understand why the message didn't show up until about 12:20
- 17:26:08 [TallTed]
- q+
- 17:26:33 [ora]
- ack TallTed
- 17:26:54 [ora]
- q+
- 17:26:59 [pfps]
- tallted: can we all try to get along with the less-than-perfect technology
- 17:27:03 [ktk]
- The link I posted is here: org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 17:27:03 [ktk]
- 18:22 * RRSAgent records action 2
- 17:27:10 [ora]
- ack ora
- 17:27:11 [ktk]
- s/posted/mentioned/
- 17:27:28 [pfps]
- ora: what is your objection
- 17:27:40 [ktk]
- Sorry about that link was broken: https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#meeting-recording
- 17:27:55 [TallTed]
- s|here: org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html|here: https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html|
- 17:28:08 [pfps]
- more or less that there is no chance of editing to remove problematic information
- 17:28:28 [TallTed]
- s/more or less/pfps: more or less/
- 17:28:37 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:28:39 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 17:28:50 [pfps]
- ora: if the only use is for better understanding then is that acceptable
- 17:28:58 [ktk]
- q+
- 17:28:59 [pfps]
- pfps: OK. I'll withdraw my objection
- 17:29:12 [ora]
- ack ktk
- 17:29:37 [TallTed]
- s/action on rdfguy: make the initial scribe list//
- 17:29:45 [pfps]
- adrian: at each meeting there will be a no recordings without consent announcement
- 17:29:47 [TallTed]
- q+
- 17:30:10 [ora]
- ack TallTed
- 17:30:29 [pfps]
- tallted: edits can be made to the minutes by anyone to fix problems
- 17:30:36 [pfps]
- zakim, next agendum
- 17:30:36 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- Quick status update of ongoing activities -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:30:50 [pfps]
- q+
- 17:30:56 [ora]
- ack pfps
- 17:35:43 [pfps]
- subtopic: Use Cases Process
- 17:31:14 [pfps]
- pfps: there have been several messages about use cases proposing a methodology
- 17:31:29 [pfps]
- pfps: if the WG is fine with that we can start implementing it
- 17:31:43 [pfps]
- ora: any comments?
- 17:32:02 [ktk]
- q+
- 17:32:09 [pfps]
- pfps: I think I'll need help from pierre-antoine
- 17:32:09 [ora]
- ack ktk
- 17:32:54 [ora]
- q+
- 17:32:58 [pfps]
- adrian: there is a github template for use cases
- 17:32:58 [ora]
- ack ora
- 17:33:18 [ktk]
- Github Use case template: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/new/choose -> "Use case"
- 17:33:30 [pfps]
- ora: i've been writing up use cases - it is not trivial
- 17:34:13 [pfps]
- pfps: one question is how to continue with an issue use case
- 17:34:40 [pfps]
- action pfps: present a use case process to the working group
- 17:34:42 [ghurlbot]
- Created -> action #27 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/27
- 17:35:27 [pfps]
- zakim, next agendum
- 17:35:27 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 -- Report from conversations with I18N -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:35:43 [TallTed]
- topic: Report from conversations with I18N
- 17:35:55 [pfps]
- ora: there just was a discussion with I18N group
- 17:36:10 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:36:11 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 17:36:53 [pfps]
- ora: the group is offering to help us
- 17:37:05 [pfps]
- ora: the earlier we can provide information to them the better
- 17:37:07 [TallTed]
- s/topic: Report from conversations with I18N//
- 17:37:43 [pfps]
- ora: one question is how to determine how much the working group will do in this space
- 17:37:50 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:37:51 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 17:37:58 [pfps]
- ora: we could take the JSON-LD work and adapt it
- 17:38:05 [pfps]
- ora: there are questions of backward compatibility
- 17:38:21 [pfps]
- ora: from the process standpoint is this something that is out of charter
- 17:38:53 [pfps]
- ora: my view is that this is a grey area and the working group needs to decide
- 17:39:26 [pfps]
- adrian: if we don't do it in 1.2 then there will be pressure for 1.3
- 17:39:58 [pfps]
- andy: it is quite early in the cycle
- 17:40:13 [ktk]
- For those like me who don't have a clear understanding of the problem, this was helpful for me https://w3c.github.io/i18n-discuss/notes/i18n-action-612.html
- 17:40:35 [AndyS]
- s/andy/AndyS/g
- 17:41:03 [pfps]
- zakim, next agendum
- 17:41:03 [Zakim]
- agendum 6 -- Continuation of the semantic predication discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 17:41:07 [TallTed]
- s/an agendum did the same;
that appears not to be so; however, the agendum is usable as a reminder
of what to set the topic to/an agendum did the same; that appears to be
so, as evidenced later in today's minutes.../
- 17:42:07 [TallTed]
- `andys` is equivalent to `AndyS`
- 17:42:13 [pfps]
- andy: things may have moved on from the discussion that was mentioned
- 17:42:14 [ktk]
- Adrian is ktk
- 17:42:58 [AndyS]
- s/andy/andys/
- 17:43:25 [pfps]
- ora: there is a lot to be discussed about semantic predication
- 17:43:35 [enrico]
- q+
- 17:43:39 [ora]
- ack enrico
- 17:44:23 [pfps]
- enrico: i have a new proposal on semantic predication
- 17:44:37 [TallTed]
- regrets+ pachampin
- 17:44:37 [TallTed]
- chair+ ora
- 17:44:37 [TallTed]
- chair+ ktk
- 17:44:47 [TallTed]
- topic: new proposal on semantic predication
- 17:45:23 [TallTed]
- s/topic/subtopic/
- 17:45:34 [pfps]
- enrico: - presentation of slide that will be sent to mailing list later
- 17:46:31 [pfps]
- enrico: semantic predication is fully transparent but does not require assertion
- 17:46:41 [pfps]
- enrico: semantic predication is about events
- 17:46:50 [ora]
- q+
- 17:48:12 [Doerthe]
- q+
- 17:48:19 [pfps]
- enrico: syntactic predication is about triples - requires variable transparency
- 17:48:32 [pfps]
- enrico: syntactic predication is not about events
- 17:49:24 [ora]
- ack ora
- 17:49:24 [TallTed]
- `rdf:type :{event-type}` will have to be coined for every event type? or added to every ontology now in the wild?
- 17:49:45 [pfps]
- enrico: modal/epistemic predication is a variation of syntactic predication (example is attribution, not belief)
- 17:50:16 [pfps]
- ora: what would the abstract syntax (metamodel) look like?
- 17:50:53 [pfps]
- ora: what is the difference between semantic predication and modal predication?
- 17:50:58 [TallTed]
- q+ to ask for more
real-world examples, especially examples which cover some real-world
existing data, perhaps digging into DBpedia or UniProt or Wikidata ...
and about {event-type} concern above
- 17:51:55 [ora]
- q+
- 17:52:17 [pfps]
- enrico: there is no abstract syntax for triples so a new notion is needed - embedded triples
- 17:54:20 [pfps]
- enrico: it is possible to transform RDF-star graphs to RDF 1.1 graphs
- 17:55:41 [pfps]
- enrico: care needs to be taken to preserve monotonicity
- 17:55:49 [ora]
- ack Doerthe
- 17:56:10 [ktk]
- I'm afraid we are at the end of our slot already
- 17:56:34 [ktk]
- could those with question write them down either here, list or on their own so we could start with them next time?
- 17:56:40 [pfps]
- Doerthe: what about logically-equivalent statements?
- 17:56:48 [AZ]
- enrico's presentation requires discussion but we don't have time now
- 17:57:17 [pfps]
- enrico: this would be done in a language that supports more powerful constructs, such as OWL
- 17:58:10 [TallTed]
- TallTed: I was going ask
for more real-world examples, especially examples which cover some
real-world existing data, perhaps digging into DBpedia or UniProt or
Wikidata ... and about `rdf:type :{event-type}` will have to be coined
for every event type? or added to every ontology now in the wild?
- 17:58:15 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:58:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/03/02-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 17:58:22 [pfps]
- enrico: I will start an email thread on this
- 17:58:50 [pfps]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes