Re: Second International Symposium on Invisible XML

Hello all,

I would like to offer a different perspective on
> XML does not have to be scarier than an angle bracket (or a few)

I would like to bring up https://xkcd.com/2501/ about average familiarity.

XML is extremely much a "shoulders of giants" technology; it's not the easy way, it's a "this will work, despite the otherwise intractable problem" way.  XML was created to solve a fundamentally difficult problem of intelligibility and it's nearly impossible to infer how it works from looking at a file with a dot-xml suffix; someone needs to explain all the things they need to explain to explain the data model. And trying to use it for anything complex without knowing how it works is a route to extensive suffering. (To which many have been condemned because management thought this was the new cool thing and had been sold on the XML approach as easier, rather than better. Starts-with-X approaches are not easier until you're firmly ensconced on the shoulder.)

Invisible XML is taking XML's "you've got to use a parser and a parser has to have rules" and extending it to "parsing against a grammar makes implicit rules explicit; we can use that". The grammars are not and will not become easy to write; they more or less cannot be, they've got to contain a description of all the ways there is information (in a particular problem domain) in the source text. (Fun to write, sure, once you're friends with the several giants and given you possess a certain set of predilections about what constitutes fun.)

Telling people it's easy becomes a way to communicate that you think they're exceptionally incapable, because they're going to try it and find out it's not easy. (Some of them will take this personally.) Invisible XML as a technology is powerful, not easy. (That it isn't any more difficult than the problem compels it to be is an accomplishment, but is not an initial selling point!) If you want to sell it, I think it's going to be far better to explain what problems it can solve (maybe with some why) and why you might want to do it that way. (And maybe notice that the pitch is fairly close to "writing your own compiler is better in these cases"; that's true, or at least it can be true, but it sounds demented.)

Having a conference for the existing friends of the giants and having a conference to gain the giants more friends are not objectives with inherent overlap.

Graydon

On Wed, Aug 19, 2026, at 07:46, Wendell Piez wrote:
> Hi again,
> 
> Thanks for reading, and to Elisa for an amazing job rethreading those lost posts. That appears to have required some (human) effort.
> 
> I'd like to add as a footnote to Steven's observation (iXML as gateway technology) that (as he and we hardly need reminding) XML does not have to be scarier than an angle bracket (or a few), and if you want your iXML processor to hide those, that can easily be arranged.
> 
> While I am not volunteering for more jobs, as part of the propaganda effort, maybe "someone" needs to make a black-box demo -- say, a two-step XProc that parses something meaningful using iXML and emits JSON. There are worse ways to design and support a bespoke text-based format for your needs, in home and business, and iXML is a fine way to specify such a format, irrespective of what  kinds of results are (sooner or later) produced.
> 
> I recently met a guy who was seriously parsing his Markdown using home-grown ANTLR-alike grammars written in Rust. (For context: an Irish developer transplanted to New Jersey.) I recommended looking into Declarative Amsterdam (because what I saw was aiming for an entirely declarative layer, not just a tunnel to HTML). This person was crazy for Markdown and HTML/CSS but pretty much at sea with anything containing an "X". He (or they) needs to be able to find their tribe.
> 
> Cheers, Wendell
> 
> 
> Cheers, Wendell
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2026 at 6:04 AM Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl> wrote:
>> Thanks for this great information about ixml at TEI, Elisa.
>> 
>> I see ixml as a possible gateway to XML, and while the name 'XML' is poisoned in some communities, 'markup' isn't. So what I'm hoping is that people may be tempted by the title to look at the program, and see things that are interesting, and decide to come, whereas people who think they don't like XML may well not even look at the program.
>> 
>> Steven
>> 
>> On Wednesday 19 August 2026 02:52:53 (+02:00), Beshero-Bondar, Elisa Eileen wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> Thanks for checking in about missing some of my messages to the public-ixml list today! I discovered the problem is on my end: Replies to posts from my phone are being sent from my gmail address, and not my psu.edu address. I've been writing from my phone on a plane this afternoon coming home from the TEI conference in Vancouver, and realized the problem after I looked up my subscription. I subscribed to this list from my university address.
>>> 
>>> If I was replying to someone, the list is nicely configured to make sure they receive my message. Checking the archives confirms I've been kind of a "ghost" today: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2026Aug/
>>> 
>>> Now that I'm back on my computer, I think this message will post properly, so I'll just (for the record) paste in my few messages from the flight today. (I should change my settings so this one mirrors the other lists in my life.) 
>>> 
>>> In reply to Wendell's post that starts, 'Dear Norm and list,  / I am pretty confident that the new humans will reject the so-called 'wisdom' of their elders who spurn XML. At least some of them.'  I wrote about some of those humans from the TEI2026 conference last week: 
>>> 
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> At the TEI conference last week, I found a lot of people asking me what they should know about invisible XML, kind of tentatively interested to see if they should take time to learn it. 
>>>> 
>>>> Context:  A new grad from my program, Hadleigh Bills, presented her project to make a TEI digital edition of the Voynich manuscript using invisible XML to convert a very regularly formatted but very esoteric transliteration file of Voynich into XML, and thence (via XSLT) to TEI, and thence (via CETEIcean) to a web edition preserving TEI semantics, with IIIF to port in facsimile page images from the Beinecke. People were asking us lots of questions to learn more— “is it some kind of markdown? Is it regular expressions? Etc) 
>>>> 
>>>> (Hadleigh Bills’ project code with a Readme describing the pipeline is here: https://github.com/newtfire/voynichTEI, and slides for the TEI conference here: https://slides.com/hadleighjae/voynichtei .
>>>> You all might find her invisible XML strategy interesting. She learned this eagerly after trying a lot of complicated regex replacements in Python. The ixml was a lot cleaner and easier to read than the Python string replacements she’d been trying. 
>>>>  )
>>>> 
>>>>  It is interesting to discuss ixml in the TEI community context—these people understand a need to move difficult texts into tractable formats, and XML is a shared language among TEI people. 
>>>> 
>>>> In this space, XML and TEI were frequently discussed as a format that mediates explicitly among multiple technologies in digital environments—between databases , graphs, and publishing tech.
>>>> 
>>>> Elisa 
>>> 
>>> Then Sheila sent this post, which included: 'Bethan makes a good point in relation to "discoverability" - in that if the name is changed, it will be important to ensure that there is still explicit mention of "IXML"', and I replied:
>>> 
>>>> I agree with Sheila and Bethan on this. Generally I want people to start noticing “XML” now and becoming curious about interesting new things happening around it. As in, look—there’s another event about XML—what’s going on?
>>>> 
>>>> I have some hope for well-designed XML as medium for transparent and efficient document data and metadata exchange as a direct counterpoint to unreadable, inaccessible, bloated alternatives used to train and augment language models. I look forward to meeting others interested in similar work… Could the letters “XML” appear to be forward-looking now?
>>>> 
>>>> Elisa
>>> Wendell replied to Sheila (probably not seeing my post), the message beginning "Hello again, / Sheila makes an excellent point that by no means should iXML be downplayed at the iXML Symposium (as I think of it), in either marketing materials or anywhere else."
>>> 
>>> To this, I replied briefly, 
>>> 
>>>> This phrase sprang to mind, Wendell:
>>>> 
>>>> The Invisible XML Symposium: for Markup and Beyond? 
>>> 
>>> Then Wendell replied to me the message starting, "Elisa, / Just to be clear (in case I misspoke) I don't think "iXML" or "Invisible XML" should be in the name of the Symposium."
>>> 
>>> To this, I replied:
>>> 
>>>> I confess confusion more than hair-splitting. If you’re not actively working on or interested in invisible XML, what would draw you to register? Wouldn’t you need a lot of training workshops for people who come in without any background?
>>>> 
>>>> Who are you trying to draw by hiding the name? And do you think they want to hear papers by people working on invisible XML? 
>>>> 
>>>> Elisa
>>> 
>>> And Wendell responded with the post that begins: "Dear Elisa, / I am not suggesting hiding the name so much as naming the conference something more general, and not hiding what it's about."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> After that, Bethan noticed all the replies to me and none *from* me on the list... I landed in Toronto, got to a hotel, and figured out what happened. 
>>> 
>>> At this point, after all the excellent ideas you're all sharing, I like the title "International Symposium on Invisible Markup". I'm also very much in favor of name recognition. And (as I really wanted to share from my first post today) I think you may find people interested in workshops at the event. The fun thing about invisible XML is that you really can get started learning it quickly—it's very workshoppable! So an outreach event at such a symposium might be a good idea. People in my world are hearing about ixml but don't totally understand what it's for yet. 
>>> 
>>> Hope this literally sets our archive in order again! 
>>> 
>>> Elisa
>>> 
>>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD (she/they)
>>> TEI Technical Council Chair
>>> Development site: https://newtfire.org 
>>> Program Chair of Digital Media, Arts, and Technology | Professor of Digital Humanities |  Director of the Digital Humanities Lab at Penn State Erie, The Behrend College
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *From:* Sheila Thomson <discuss@bluegumtree.com>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2026 8:06 PM
>>> *To:* public-ixml@w3.org <public-ixml@w3.org>; Bethan Tovey-Walsh <bytheway@linguacelta.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Second International Symposium on Invisible XML
>>>  
>>> I received the first message from Elisa but not the second one.
>>> 
>>> Excellent summary Bethan, thanks.
>>> 
>>> Sheila
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 18 August 2026 23:04:04 BST, Bethan Tovey-Walsh <bytheway@linguacelta.com> wrote:
>>>> Sorry - a meta question. I appear to be getting only Wendell's side of this conversation and not Elisa's - is that the same for everyone else, or is my email client misbehaving in some newly evil way?
>>>> 
>>>> BTW
>>>> 
>>>> ****************************************************
>>>> 
>>>> Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>> 
>>>> linguacelta.com
>>>> 
>>>> Golygydd | Editor geirfan.cymru
>>>> 
>>>> Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 18 Aug 2026, at 22:50, Wendell Piez <wapiez@wendellpiez.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dear Elisa,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am not suggesting hiding the name so much as naming the conference something more general, and not hiding what it's about.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You raise interesting questions as to who would be interested in a more general "markup": or "structured data" or what-have-you conference or event, but I can't answer that, since we aren't talking about what to name it, but what not to name it. ("iXML".)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I also think that if we (the iXML contingent) don't think our papers are interesting or should be interesting to someone who hasn't heard of iXML, or who has not yet heard of it -- we are doing ourselves a disservice.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Come to a markup conference. Learn about parsing, structured data, text as interface, code as text, history and principles of markup, iXML. At the Invisible Markup and Parsing Symposium (IMPS) we talk about how to parse our information and what we can do with it. What's so difficult about that? (I'm not suggesting that seriously: it's a throwaway to illustrate the concept.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Of course (whatever the name), I can still submit a paper not XML-focused, can I not? In which any XML is entirely incidental? Or is the symposium really that focused on projects and toolchains enabled by iXML? If the organizing/program committee wants to focus on iXML-enabled toolchains, projects, ideas, there's nothing wrong with that either. My response to Steven (and subsequent explanations) is predicated on the notion that the symposium seeks to be relevant to everyone interested in the the problem space, not just the technology.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers, Wendell
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2026 at 5:07 PM Elisa Beshero-Bondar <ebbondar@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I confess confusion more than hair-splitting. If you’re not actively working on or interested in invisible XML, what would draw you to register? Wouldn’t you need a lot of training workshops for people who come in without any background?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Who are you trying to draw by hiding the name? And do you think they want to hear papers by people working on invisible XML? 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Elisa
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD (she/they)
>>>>>> Chair, TEI Technical Council
>>>>>> Program Chair of Digital Media, Arts, and Technology | Professor of Digital Humanities |  Director of the Digital Humanities Lab at Penn State Erie, The Behrend College
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Typeset by hand on my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 18, 2026, at 4:52 PM, Wendell Piez <wapiez@wendellpiez.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Elisa,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just to be clear (in case I misspoke) I don't think "iXML" or "Invisible XML" should be in the name of the Symposium.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is not at all the same calculus as naming any other event or organization, FWIW. But for *this* event, I am trying to second Steven's suggestion that the focus be implicit, and created by the participants, not stipulated (and bounded by) the event's name.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks for splitting hairs with me!
>>>>>>> Cheers, Wendell
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2026 at 4:13 PM Elisa Beshero-Bondar <ebbondar@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> This phrase sprang to mind, Wendell:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The Invisible XML Symposium: for Markup and Beyond? 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD (she/they)
>>>>>>>> Chair, TEI Technical Council
>>>>>>>> Program Chair of Digital Media, Arts, and Technology | Professor of Digital Humanities |  Director of the Digital Humanities Lab at Penn State Erie, The Behrend College
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Typeset by hand on my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 18, 2026, at 3:50 PM, Wendell Piez <wapiez@wendellpiez.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hello again,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sheila makes an excellent point that by no means should iXML be downplayed at the iXML Symposium (as I think of it), in either marketing materials or anywhere else.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I am not shy about saying that iXML should be at the center. It is more a question of messaging who is welcome to come. If someone creates an iXML-workalike creating S-expressions or curlies, I don't want them to think they are outside the bounds of What May Be Discussed. Those are really the people that need to be there, are they not?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Indeed, if any mention of "The Markup Y" or "Declarative Z" must always be appended with (hushed voice) "it's an *XML* event" just so people feel they are being honest - that would be an excellent thing.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Again, I think Balisage has set a good example, as its statement of interest is quite broad beyond XML, and so does its title. It is diminished if you think it was only an XML event.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Cheers, Wendell
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2026 at 2:52 PM Sheila Thomson <discuss@bluegumtree.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I see the merits of both options ("markup" or "XML") and have no
>>>>>>>>>> preference either way.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Bethan makes a good point in relation to "discoverability" - in that if
>>>>>>>>>> the name is changed, it will be important to ensure that there is still
>>>>>>>>>> explicit mention of "IXML" and "invisible XML" in promotional material
>>>>>>>>>> and other related comms, to increase the odds of it reaching people
>>>>>>>>>> searching for those more commonly used terms.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 18/08/2026 15:01, Bethan Tovey-Walsh wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > I don't object to the change in principle, but currently there are a lot of people doing IXML and not a lot of people doing "invisible markup". My concern when we talked about this for the first Symposium was about whether the term "invisible markup" really means anything to people - whereas we *know* that people are talking about and working with IXML.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > (It does also seem weird to me that someone who would be interested in markup is *not at all* interested in XML. But I have met humans, and "weird" seems to be the one thing that they all have in common.)
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > BTW
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > ___________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> > Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > linguacelta.com
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Golygydd | Editor geirfan.cymru
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >> On 18 Aug 2026, at 14:42, Norm Tovey-Walsh <norm@saxonica.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> >>> Oh, hey! This XML stuff is actually pretty cool!
>>>>>>>>>> >> I love your optimism. Have you met humans? :-)
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>>>>> >> Norm Tovey-Walsh
>>>>>>>>>> >> Saxonica
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendellpiez.com...
>>>>>>>>> ...pellucidliterature.org... ...raventracks.org...
>>>>>>>>> ... xproc.zone... ...github.com/wendellpiez...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendellpiez.com...
>>>>>>> ...pellucidliterature.org... ...raventracks.org...
>>>>>>> ... xproc.zone... ...github.com/wendellpiez...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendellpiez.com...
>>>>> ...pellucidliterature.org... ...raventracks.org...
>>>>> ... xproc.zone... ...github.com/wendellpiez...
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendellpiez.com...
> ...pellucidliterature.org... ...raventracks.org...
> ... xproc.zone... ...github.com/wendellpiez...