Re: Second International Symposium on Invisible XML

Dear Elisa,

I am not suggesting hiding the name so much as naming the conference
something more general, and not hiding what it's about.

You raise interesting questions as to who would be interested in a more
general "markup": or "structured data" or what-have-you conference or
event, but I can't answer that, since we aren't talking about what to name
it, but what not to name it. ("iXML".)

I also think that if we (the iXML contingent) don't think our papers are
interesting or should be interesting to someone who hasn't heard of iXML,
or who has not yet heard of it -- we are doing ourselves a disservice.

Come to a markup conference. Learn about parsing, structured data, text as
interface, code as text, history and principles of markup, iXML. At the
Invisible Markup and Parsing Symposium (IMPS) we talk about how to parse
our information and what we can do with it. What's so difficult about that?
(I'm not suggesting that seriously: it's a throwaway to illustrate the
concept.)

Of course (whatever the name), I can still submit a paper not XML-focused,
can I not? In which any XML is entirely incidental? Or is the symposium
really that focused on projects and toolchains enabled by iXML? If the
organizing/program committee wants to focus on iXML-enabled toolchains,
projects, ideas, there's nothing wrong with that either. My response to
Steven (and subsequent explanations) is predicated on the notion that the
symposium seeks to be relevant to everyone interested in the the problem
space, not just the technology.

Cheers, Wendell


On Tue, Aug 18, 2026 at 5:07 PM Elisa Beshero-Bondar <ebbondar@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I confess confusion more than hair-splitting. If you’re not actively
> working on or interested in invisible XML, what would draw you to register?
> Wouldn’t you need a lot of training workshops for people who come in
> without any background?
>
> Who are you trying to draw by hiding the name? And do you think they want
> to hear papers by people working on invisible XML?
>
> Elisa
>
>
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD (she/they)
> Chair, TEI Technical Council
> Program Chair of Digital Media, Arts, and Technology | Professor of
> Digital Humanities |  Director of the Digital Humanities Lab at Penn State
> Erie, The Behrend College
>
> Typeset by hand on my iPhone
>
> On Aug 18, 2026, at 4:52 PM, Wendell Piez <wapiez@wendellpiez.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Elisa,
>
> Just to be clear (in case I misspoke) I don't think "iXML" or "Invisible
> XML" should be in the name of the Symposium.
>
> This is not at all the same calculus as naming any other event or
> organization, FWIW. But for *this* event, I am trying to second Steven's
> suggestion that the focus be implicit, and created by the participants, not
> stipulated (and bounded by) the event's name.
>
> Thanks for splitting hairs with me!
> Cheers, Wendell
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2026 at 4:13 PM Elisa Beshero-Bondar <ebbondar@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This phrase sprang to mind, Wendell:
>>
>> The Invisible XML Symposium: for Markup and Beyond?
>>
>>
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD (she/they)
>> Chair, TEI Technical Council
>> Program Chair of Digital Media, Arts, and Technology | Professor of
>> Digital Humanities |  Director of the Digital Humanities Lab at Penn State
>> Erie, The Behrend College
>>
>> Typeset by hand on my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2026, at 3:50 PM, Wendell Piez <wapiez@wendellpiez.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hello again,
>>
>> Sheila makes an excellent point that by no means should iXML be
>> downplayed at the iXML Symposium (as I think of it), in either marketing
>> materials or anywhere else.
>>
>> I am not shy about saying that iXML should be at the center. It is more a
>> question of messaging who is welcome to come. If someone creates an
>> iXML-workalike creating S-expressions or curlies, I don't want them to
>> think they are outside the bounds of What May Be Discussed. Those are
>> really the people that need to be there, are they not?
>>
>> Indeed, if any mention of "The Markup Y" or "Declarative Z" must always
>> be appended with (hushed voice) "it's an *XML* event" just so people feel
>> they are being honest - that would be an excellent thing.
>>
>> Again, I think Balisage has set a good example, as its statement of
>> interest is quite broad beyond XML, and so does its title. It is diminished
>> if you think it was only an XML event.
>>
>> Cheers, Wendell
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2026 at 2:52 PM Sheila Thomson <discuss@bluegumtree.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I see the merits of both options ("markup" or "XML") and have no
>>> preference either way.
>>>
>>> Bethan makes a good point in relation to "discoverability" - in that if
>>> the name is changed, it will be important to ensure that there is still
>>> explicit mention of "IXML" and "invisible XML" in promotional material
>>> and other related comms, to increase the odds of it reaching people
>>> searching for those more commonly used terms.
>>>
>>> Sheila
>>>
>>> On 18/08/2026 15:01, Bethan Tovey-Walsh wrote:
>>> > I don't object to the change in principle, but currently there are a
>>> lot of people doing IXML and not a lot of people doing "invisible markup".
>>> My concern when we talked about this for the first Symposium was about
>>> whether the term "invisible markup" really means anything to people -
>>> whereas we *know* that people are talking about and working with IXML.
>>> >
>>> > (It does also seem weird to me that someone who would be interested in
>>> markup is *not at all* interested in XML. But I have met humans, and
>>> "weird" seems to be the one thing that they all have in common.)
>>> >
>>> > BTW
>>> >
>>> > ___________________________________________________
>>> > Dr. Bethan Tovey-Walsh
>>> >
>>> > linguacelta.com
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flinguacelta.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Ceeb4%40psu.edu%7C57bbc8767db14302f60f08defd6a9395%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C639226831399040125%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9uEbQVKtcPKBzRRYRMTSzbl1TOVkONU4GDBf58W4VkY%3D&reserved=0>
>>> >
>>> > Golygydd | Editor geirfan.cymru
>>> >
>>> > Croeso i chi ysgrifennu ataf yn y Gymraeg.
>>> >
>>> >> On 18 Aug 2026, at 14:42, Norm Tovey-Walsh <norm@saxonica.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl> writes:
>>> >>> Oh, hey! This XML stuff is actually pretty cool!
>>> >> I love your optimism. Have you met humans? :-)
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Norm Tovey-Walsh
>>> >> Saxonica
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendellpiez.com...
>> ...pellucidliterature.org... ...raventracks.org...
>> ... xproc.zone... ...github.com/wendellpiez.
>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fwendellpiez.&data=05%7C02%7Ceeb4%40psu.edu%7C57bbc8767db14302f60f08defd6a9395%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C639226831399079640%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mXud9WS7T6TpVF6mQajREjvOpl8J8Zepow%2FP7jMKqis%3D&reserved=0>
>> ..
>>
>>
>
> --
> ...Wendell Piez... ...wendellpiez.com...
> ...pellucidliterature.org... ...raventracks.org...
> ... xproc.zone... ...github.com/wendellpiez.
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fwendellpiez.&data=05%7C02%7Ceeb4%40psu.edu%7C57bbc8767db14302f60f08defd6a9395%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C639226831399103819%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xiHADH%2BlK6R1KkAYqtNqFbYtxkI0fVk9aOHIoWvu97c%3D&reserved=0>
> ..
>
>

-- 
...Wendell Piez... ...wendellpiez.com...
...pellucidliterature.org... ...raventracks.org...
... xproc.zone... ...github.com/wendellpiez...