Charlie Wiecha, IBM
Steven Pemberton, CWI/W3C
Erik Bruchez, Orbeon
Leigh Klotz, Xerox
Uli Lissé, DreamLab
John Boyer, IBM
Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
newSteven Pemberton: Alain Couthuries
won't be joining us today.
Steven Pemberton: I tried XSLTForms
with XForms as the default namespace and it just worked.
Leigh Klotz: I think IE fails if you
start with XHTML as default, switch on a group to XForms as
default, and then use an XHTML prefix inside that.
Charlie Wiecha: John was named one
IBM Distinguished Engineer, in recognition for his work on
standards and product architecture.
John Boyer: Thank you.
Steven Pemberton: I'll organize it.
Leigh Klotz: Can we publish
modules, small work items?
Steven Pemberton: RDFa worked well
with modularization. In the long run, it's a worthwhile
opportunity. The initial hump to split it up is hard. Do we want to
try to get over it?
Nick van: Well, we've had one big
module XForms 1.1 and we write on top of that.
John Boyer: I believe the charter says
"XForms 1.2 Specifications" (btw please update the public page to
point to the new charter).
Leigh Klotz: Maybe Steven can lead us
towards the hump, but we can also start with small modular specs
for things we already have in the wiki.
Steven Pemberton: The toolset I use
at the moment and the current spec don't fit. We're committed to
XMLSpec.
Charlie Wiecha: It becomes more
feasible in smaller units. XMLSpec isn't that hard.
John Boyer: I agree; the full spec is
organized by chapters which roughly map to modules. It's harder to
fully separate those into separate modules; that continues to be a
large engineering task, but to the extent practical they are
separate. New thin specs with new functionality on switch, or
submission, for example, might eventually be merged in but at least
it's workable. And it gets us early traction.
Erik Bruchez: I agree and it's not
different from what we're doing. It would be a huge mistake to
spend significant time purely on modularizing.
Nick van: That's also my
opinion.
John Boyer: Small and independently
edited; I have to write some actions for the switch element. I also
have to do XForms 1.1 SE, but there are champions for various
features, and for a small spec it's not a huge hump to get to the
XMLSpec world.
Charlie Wiecha: Oasys has no
consistent spec document architecture.
Leigh Klotz: I wonder if Mediawiki can
support an XMLSpec plugin.
Steven Pemberton: I've been wondering
about that as well.
Leigh Klotz: You'd still have to
snapshot it.
John Boyer: I wonder if there are any
new pubrules for the new web look.
Steven Pemberton: I believe that's on
hold for the moment; the new spec style isn't required, I
believe.
Leigh Klotz: I'll take a look at
Mediawiki. Maybe we can use it as an editing tool for and snapshot
it eventually.
John Boyer: Even if you don't have the
process and manually convert to XML Spec, the hard part is getting
the content.
Charlie Wiecha: Call me crusty, but I
find XML more user friendly than Wiki markup.
Steven Pemberton: Yes, but a live
central copy that you can edit at any moment also has some
attraction.
Charlie Wiecha: The centrality is more
important than the WYSIWYG. I always have to use the language. But
having a central copy is a win.
Steven Pemberton: Is there a WYSIWYG
editor for XMLSpec?
Charlie Wiecha: I just look at
snapshots. I'm fairly happy with the markup. It took half a
day.
Nick van: In Eclipse, it generates the
HTML.
Erik Bruchez: Mediawiki may have a
WYSIWYG editor at some point, so the Wiki syntax issue may go
away.
Leigh Klotz: If we're going to
generate semantic markup the WYSIWYG editor won't help.
Erik Bruchez: So you can do that in
Mediawiki?
Leigh Klotz: You can use wiki syntax
macros to generate a microformat with class attributes and then use
XSLT.
Erik Bruchez: I share Charlie's
concern but I believe the central copy is good.
Steven Pemberton: OK so we can all
live with it.
Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/@context_everywhere
John Boyer: That's easier as a module
than a full-spec, because it would make comments that adjust
everywhere.
John Boyer: Could be lumped in with
switch updates, or stand alone.
Steven Pemberton: It's small enough to
go in with the other functions.
Leigh Klotz: Or switch changes.
Steven Pemberton: That's much more of
a delta spec rather than a module as it changes what we already
have; context-everywhere is just a module with a separate
spec.
John Boyer: It would change how XPath
is interpreted everywhere and has an effect on actions, UI control,
and bind.
Steven Pemberton: So you don't think
it's separable?
John Boyer: It changes behavior but it
may be OK.
Leigh Klotz: I think we can loosen up
a little.
Steven Pemberton: So is it a separate
spec?
Leigh Klotz: We don't know, possibly
with switch updates.
John Boyer:
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Model-based_switching_with_switch
John Boyer: They're tangentially
related, but both related to switch. They'll end up in separate
places in a full spec.
Leigh Klotz: We may not publish a big
spec with all that in it; we might publish a smaller "Core"
spec.
John Boyer: For now we should proceed
with small delta specs.
Steven Pemberton: For the short
term, we should look at delta specs, then modules to merge them
into, with an aim not to have to produce a monolithic spec again.
That means a one-time modularization.
Leigh Klotz: And we don't front-load
the modularization.
Steven Pemberton: I still feel a bit
dubious about distributing work before the WG takes its final form.
We are expecting new members. It's good if people will commit to
doing work now. I'll start looking into the modularization now. If
others are interested in some of the issues in 1.2.
Leigh Klotz: I think we can continue
to edit things in the wiki as we've been.
Steven Pemberton: True.
John Boyer: I'm committed to the
"model-based switching with switch." And the MIPS topic.
Steven Pemberton: I thought we'd
agreed to add pattern to the MIPs.
John Boyer: I remember it being
discussed.
Nick van: There is a pattern function
in XPath 2.0 already.
Steven Pemberton: Perhaps that's why I
remembered we discussed it.
John Boyer: What's it called?
Nick van: It's a search
function.
John Boyer: One of the advantages to
XPath 2.0 is that it provides regular expressions.
Steven Pemberton: Also you can write
your own schema. Pattern is the only part that isn't built
in.
Leigh Klotz: Plus minInclusive,
maxExclusive, etc.
Nick van: The matches function.
Steven Pemberton: So work in the Wiki now on parts that you champion and we'll move on for now.
newJohn Boyer: So we might have a
different value for @replace to explicitly set up the behavior for
@target, instead of using replace=all.
Nick van: As Erik pointed out,
sometimes replace=all isn't an HTML filed, and in HTML4 sometimes
the page isn't replaced either.
John Boyer: That's an interesting, but
separate, question. Our language says that the document is replaced
by the new content. If that's wrong with target we need to fix
it.
Nick van: It may be that replace=all
needs freedom to decide to shut down the form or not.
John Boyer: Then it's
replace=host instead of
replace=all.
Erik Bruchez: We had questions about
xforms-submit-done and xforms-submit-error; we decided it "may" not
be dispatched due to HTML4 integration issues. Browsers may replace
documents, or do a submission and get a stream, but in the general
case, you if you give control, the XForms processor may or may not
be alive. It's not the case in general, and we should let the
implementors load the new document in same window, new window,
download, etc.
John Boyer: In replace=all we already
expect that XForms implementations will delegate that to user
agents.
Erik Bruchez: Then replace is the
problem, not "all".
John Boyer: The name replace is the
cause of our problems.
Steven Pemberton: Because people
misinterpret the word "replace"?
John Boyer: What do you replace with
replace=all target=_blank ?
Steven Pemberton: I see what you
mean.
John Boyer: http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#submit-evt-submit
"Entire containing document being replaced". Erik says that's what
happens sometimes. If the browser doesn't have a plugin that might
be the case.
Leigh Klotz: You use
"Content-disposition: attachment;"
Erik Bruchez: There was a discussion
about replacement in XSLTForms. It can use XHR to get the document
and replace the current content of the window with it.
John Boyer: I think we deliberately
didn't allow that because it changes the baseurl.
Erik Bruchez: HTML5 has a history
manager and there may or may not be a way to change that. Even if
it's true today, it might not be true tomorrow. I pointed out that
it may be possible to ensure it's an actual replacement, but with a
hybrid implementation like ours, you rely on the server sending
content, and if it's sent as a result of an HTML4 form submission,
you have no control over what the browser will do. So I would like
to leave open the possibility that even with replace=all you might
lose control over what gets replaced.
Charlie Wiecha: [leaves]
John Boyer: Erik says that's already
the case; we don't do step 1 already. Replace all means replace all
of something, but it might be all of a file, or all of a window, or
even all of a div.
Erik Bruchez: I guess retrospectively
it wasn't a good name.
Leigh Klotz: We got it from XLink,
show=replace.
Steven Pemberton: We'll have to do
this next week.