Keith Wells, IBM
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer, DreamLabs
John Boyer, IBM (chair)
Charlie Wiecha, IBM
Mark Seaborne, PicoForms
Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
Steven Pemberton, CWI/W3C
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Rafael Benito, SATEC
Blake Jones, ViewPlus Technologies/DAISY
John Boyer: Steven, can we get the
abstract page ready for me to post in the database that Dave
Megginson sent us.
Steven Pemberton: Leigh?
Leigh Klotz: Yes, I have them in http://del.icio.us/leighklotz/xforms+paper+submission
John Boyer: I changed my abstract not
to say "proposed".
Leigh Klotz: Should we do that?
John Boyer: I think so. Also contact
and ask for photos.
Action 2007-10-3.1: Leigh Klotz to edit abstracts and ask authors for photos for XForms @ XML 2007.
Action 2007-10-3.2: Steven Pemberton to post final abstracts for XForms Day to XML 2007 database that Dave Megginson will provide John Boyer.
John Boyer: Two fixes, to add optional date-time parameters to deal with calculating "two hours from now" in the same way we calculate "two days from now." http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.1/index-diff.html#fn-seconds-from-dateTime The boolean defaults to true (as in XForms 1.0) using UTC time, but false makes the seconds-from-dateTime calculation in the current time zone.
Nick van: Adding the boolean makes
seconds-from-dateTime incompatible with XPath 2.0.
John Boyer: What about
seconds-to-dateTime?
Nick van: That's not in XPath
2.0.
John Boyer: That's a good point. The
critical one is seconds-to-dateTime.
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.1/index-diff.html#fn-seconds-to-dateTime
Nick van: They have another way to do
that.
John Boyer: They have natural date
math functionality. I found I couldn't calculate "two hours from
now" in a single calculate. If you look at the examples, you can
see I don't need the parameter on seconds-from-dateTime.
Steven Pemberton: [irc] Ugh
John Boyer: Yes, Steven, XPath 2.0
will be better. But if you look in the email, you'll see that
without this parameter, you have to have four binds and two or
three local instance date variables to calculate "two hours from
now." At a minimum, if we can keep the optional boolean parameter,
days-to-date(days-from-date(local-date()) + 31) will add 31
days.
Leigh Klotz: So the issue is that now
returns UTC?
John Boyer: The issue is
seconds-to-dateTime, which is not capable of returning a local
date.
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.1/index-diff.html#fn-seconds-to-dateTime
You will see that seconds-to-dateTime produces a UTC
dateTime.
Steven Pemberton: You can say that
again.
John Boyer: [repeats]
Steven Pemberton: No, I mean I agree
with you entirely.
Nick van: I agree that we need
something to convert to local timezones, but boolean is a bit...it
is not such expected behavior. It feels a bit of a hack. In fact
what you really want is conversions between timezones, as in XPath
2.0. Maybe it's a bit too much to ask. You could have a convert
timezone function to localtime.
Leigh Klotz: It seems to me a function
that would convert from UTC to localtime would do the same thing
but be discoverable.
Nick van: Those are all in XPath
2.0.
John Boyer: I agree that XPath 2.0
would be nicer and I could go for seconds-to-localDateTime. If we
do nothing, we have to do all this...
Leigh Klotz: I think a separate
function is better. It doesn't have to be totally generic if XPath
2.0's, is; we can just do convert to localtime.
John Boyer: Yes, and in part because
modifying seconds-from-dateTime isn't a good idea.
Nick van: [irc]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-operators/#func-adjust-dateTime-to-timezone
John Boyer: So we could just have
adjust-dateTime-to-localtime.
Nick van: I wanted to do this, but we
are trying to add not too much stuff that isn't in XPath 2.0.
John Boyer: We're about to go to a
call for implementations and this looks easy to implement.
Nick van: I can live with it.
John Boyer: So the proposal is to add
a adjust-dateTime-to-localtime function.
Leigh Klotz: The XPath 2.0 function
has lots of cases to consider, empty, no timezone etc.
John Boyer: Yes, we'll have to have
similar language.
John Boyer: [irc] Proposal: add a
convert-to-local-dateTime; Similar language about edge cases as
well as main case of converting from UTC to local (if timezone info
known by impl)
Leigh Klotz: I'd say that it should
handle all timezones in the date, just as in
seconds-from-dateTime.
John Boyer: What if it isn't
specified?
Leigh Klotz: It says just append the
timezone if the timezone is unspecified.
Nick van: I would say we can just use
the XPath function without the optional timezone arg.
Leigh Klotz: It's called
adjust-dateTime-to-timezone and they have it defined without the
timezone parameter as well.
John Boyer: That would probably make
Erik happy. Anybody unhappy with that? So resolved.
Resolution 2007-10-3.1: We adopt adjust-dateTime-to-timezone from http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-operators/#func-adjust-dateTime-to-timezone in the single-parameter version only.
Action 2007-10-3.3: John Boyer to adopt adjust-dateTime-to-timezone from http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-operators/#func-adjust-dateTime-to-timezone in the single-parameter version only for XForms 1.1.
John Boyer: What topics?
Steven Pemberton: Harmonizing forms;
they have their own HTML-like forms. Also, harmonizing events,
though possibly that is backplane.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: Is this for
the all-group meeting?
John Boyer: It came up at the F2F. We
decided to request the meeting.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: What's the
reason for the request?
Steven Pemberton: I'd like to discuss
the HTML approach vs the XML approach.
John Boyer: Charlie?
Steven Pemberton: What was in the
minutes.
Steven Pemberton: Today is the
final deadline for the F2F hotel deadline.
John Boyer: We really need you at the
F2F meetings.
Steven Pemberton: what is the
status?
Leigh Klotz: I'm waiting for the test
suite to be updated to PicoForms to test.
Keith Wells: The changes should be in
place. The v3 test suite was updated two days ago. Can we get the
updated link posted John?
John Boyer: Yes.
Steven Pemberton: Where is the
link
Keith Wells: In my email this
morning.
Action 2007-10-3.4: John Boyer to update v3 test suite link from home page.
John Boyer: Which test suite are
they trying to create an implementation report against?
Steven Pemberton: We are using
PicoForms for PR for XForms Basic. Which edition are you using?
Third edition?
Mark Seaborne: I think we are using
second.
John Boyer: Leigh, have you seen the
implementation report?
Leigh Klotz: I've not seen it. I was
preparing to ask for one.
Steven Pemberton: I've seen a
spreadsheet with reports of basic vs. not.
Leigh Klotz: I don't care where it
comes from, but I am not doing the test of PicoForms myself. I just
need to produce the document.
Steven Pemberton: Mark Seaborne, can I
ask you to contact Leigh and get him what he needs?
John Boyer: Which edition does it
reference for PicoForms?
Leigh Klotz: It could refer to any one
we want I suppose. Whatever PicoForms implements and tests is the
version that we can advance to PR.
John Boyer: Mark, can you let us know
what version PicoForms will be testing and get an implementation
report to Leigh?
Mark Seaborne: Sure.
Action 2007-10-3.5: Mark Seaborne to let us know what version PicoForms will be testing and get an implementation report for XForms 1.0 Basic Profile to Leigh Klotz?
John Boyer: Keith, can you send
mail with links to the messages from David Landwehr (see IRC) and
report they are fixed?
Keith Wells: I did that.
Steven Pemberton: What is the
status?
Nick van: There is a proposal for the
charter from Anne. It's quite vague but it's a start. There is some
movement on either a phone call or a tech plenary meeting. It is
moving again.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: Yes. I am
not showing up but that is a red herring, but I should be there. I
introduced myself today. There's a question about which wiki
version.
Steven Pemberton: I'll either use our
existing wiki or use the new one if it's available.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: I think
Anne's just asking for web space for storing documents, not
necessarily a wiki; maybe he can just get space from Chris Lilley.
Nick van: Then only he can edit
it?
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: No, it
would be access public. But we need to confirm.
John Boyer: Once the space is set up,
let us know and we'll link to it.
John Boyer: Submission examples
from Steven? Will you be able to give us some examples?
Steven Pemberton: Yes, I'll do that
Friday.
John Boyer: Uli reported that he is
working on the insert/delete examples. Hopefully some of you have
had a chance to look at the first four; they're more intelligible
than our past ones.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: Did Uli do
the past ones?
John Boyer: He did a good job to
start, but I asked for a couple of other adjustments on the
presentment to make the general pattern obvious at the
beginning.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: I'll tell
Uli.
Nick van: For readonly examples, do
we want them in the same format as for insert? The data before and
after will be the same.
John Boyer: How many examples do you
have?
Nick van: I have ...
John Boyer: We don't have to go as
wild as we did on insert/delete, because we had a last call comment
to document common usage patterns, and it feeds XForms 1.2 and turn
them into new vocabulary to streamline "append an element,"
"prepend an element," "duplicate," etc. with an exact ... More like
Uli's original format would be sufficient.
Nick van: I did the same as the other
examples.
John Boyer: If there's anything to be
done other than wiring them in we'll correspond.
John Boyer: The Schema...Nick did a
lot but there's one left.
Charlie Wiecha: That's me,
actions
Leigh Klotz: What about the
unnecessary toplevel elements?
Nick van: New ones are local and old
ones are left toplevel.
John Boyer: We can put together a
better schema as time goes on. Jan created a version of the Schema
that did move some elements away from being toplevel, so maybe we
could take a look at that. I think Mark Birbeck is working on a
highly-modularized Schema and there was some concern that it was
using features that some Schema engines wouldn't support; I'm
prepared to believe it but it seems fishy.
Leigh Klotz: I think this is our last
chance to say that label can't go just anywhere, or put it in
group.
John Boyer: That's why the schema
isn't normative any more; the main body of the document doesn't say
that. Also we said that the submission children could be in any
order.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: The
validation battle is lost.
John Boyer: I don't think runtimes are
using it, but it's helpful for validation.
Leigh Klotz: Really all we need out of
it is the data types.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: Technically
we could, but I think we shouldn't.
Leigh Klotz: We could use an RNG
Schema.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: Someone
should write one.
Leigh Klotz: In fact we have an RNG
Schema. Micah wrote one and I'm an editor of it.
Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: Let's talk
about it.
Leigh Klotz: Next time.