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<trackbot> Date: 29 June 2011
<scribe> ScribeNick: jsoref
<scribe> Scribe: Josh_Soref
<fjhother> ScribeNick: jsoref
<lgombos> Zakim: Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
fjh: First topic is administrative
<fjh> 19-21 July F2F logistics, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2011Apr/0000.html
<fjh> Please register - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43696/paris-2011/
<fjh> Publishing moratorium 24-29 July
<fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-device-apis/2011Jun/0011.html
<darobin> [registration expires on the 12th]
Hi, I'm Josh Soref, I recently joined Research In Motion, to officially work on Web Standards.
And I'm glad to be here
dom: I wasn't on last week's call because I welcomed my second son. He's also why I won't be at the f2f
<cmarc> congratulations
<darobin> François Daoust
<darobin> a.k.a tidoust
dom: François Daoust will be at the f2f in my stead
<fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Jun/att-0055/minutes-2011-06-15.html
fjh: any concerns?
Proposed Resolution: 15 june 2011 are approved
RESOLUTION: 15 june 2011 minutes are approved
fjh: Discovery...
<fjh> Review completed, see http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/dap-2/results
<fjh> Possible clarification needed on scope of discovery
fjh: whether it should be in the
charter or not
... i don't know what WG can do at this point, Dom, it seems
like we need a couple of sentences
dom: roughly speaking, i will be working with the team on trying to find a position that is agreeable to all
<fjh> team will be working on updates to charter from this point
dom: this would affect whether
it's present in the charter or not
... the current charter runs through July 31
... so we have a little leeway
AnssiK: I received some feedback
from the Web Performance WG
... they liked it
... they liked the simplicity of it
... I also received editorial feedback from josh
... that's reflected in the ED
... the webkit team has a draft implementation of the ED
... I'd like to summarize the status....
... the spec is terribly simple
... i'd like to go to LC
... I'd rather address josh's other feedback in a later
spec
... We also received feedback from Doug Turner of Mozilla
... Josh's feedback is good, but...
<dom> +1 on more than level-based events
<darobin> +1 as well
fjh: it seems to me that some of josh's comments should be dealt with later
AnssiK: i'd like to put them in a
bucket that can be in Version 2 of the specification
... a question to Josh:
<dom> I would put Critical/Low events in v1 rather than v2
AnssiK: do you think that the ideas that you have could be built on top of the current version?
<darobin> I would, too
AnssiK: if that's the case, then
i'd rather go out with what we have now
... and then when we have more implementation experience
... we could got out with the current spec
... and then extend it later
[ scribe pauses to compose thoughts ]
<fjh> josh notes concern of having to replicate implementation of higher level functions if not provided as part of the api
<fjh> josh notes concern about having to have continuously running app to learn about device battery use, self-defeating to use up battery
<dom> [I'm not sure OS can report useful data about battery time left in the first place
<fjh> josh notes that knowing that battery is low or critically low is not useful, since app cannot interpret this in terms of time left etc
<darobin> [no, but it's the most accurate you'll ever get]
<fjh> josh notes some laptops are able to handle this time left function
<dom> [we could add an "estimatedTimeLeft" attribute added to the event?]
<Zakim> darobin, you wanted to clarify that there's no rush to LC — we have good feedback, what's more from implementers, I think we should take it for v1
<fjh> josh suggests no rush to go to last call
darobin: I just wanted to point
out that irrespective of technical arguments
... there's no rush to LC
... there's no rush to have a short spec and go to rec
immediately
... i think we have good feedback
... from implementers
... i think that this spec should be so simple
<dom> +1 to robin
darobin: that there perhaps should never be a need for a v2
AnssiK: my question that was not
answered
... can we layer this functionality on the existing api?
... josh's proposal
... or doug's proposal
darobin: for the semantic
events
... the problem is that the only thing that javascript can
do
... is have some very rough heuristics
... on some devices, 10% is extremely low
... on other devices you still have 1 1/2 hrs of battery
... the system has this information
... if that information is available, then we should use
those
... it certainly doesn't make sense for a script to start
saving battery if you have 2 hours left
AnssiK: by layering on top
<fjh> +1 to robin and josh that having time left is very useful if possible
AnssiK: i mean can we just add another api past it
darobin: so battery events level 2 that is other stuff past level one
AnssiK: if someone implements the
current draft
... does it do something useful toward level 2
darobin: i'm a bit concerned that
for something as simple as a battery specification
... that we might be producing multiple specs
... layering is very nice
<Zakim> fjh, you wanted to ask if the spec is layered
darobin: but i'm concerned that we may be doing too much of it
fjh: i have another
question
... josh asked about continuously polling
... i think we would want to avoid that
... do we think it would be 3 months?
darobin: i said 3 months because
it was the first figure that came
... i don't think that it would take that long to integrate the
current feedback
fjh: i think the webkit feedback
asked about use cases
... i think that josh is expanding the use cases
... i don't think that we thought about those use cases
lgombos: there was some feedback
from the webkit community about use cases
... i think we answered them
... that it was just for telling the web page that it needs to
save its state because it's running low
... initially the use case is just very basic power management
for the web page
<AnssiK> [ the use case request on the webkit-dev was about the Contacts API ]
fjh: thanks, i think you're saying we don't need to expand the use cases much
dom: i think it's actually useful to document the use cases we think we are solving
<darobin> +1 to documenting use cases
dom: the reason i think we should
include critical and low events
... and also remaining time
... i think that the changes needed are fairly low
<fjh> documenting use case should help set appropriate expectations
<darobin> +10 to someone taking an action item to document use cases :)
dom: i think there's much more
value in integrating them now
... because they will actually match the use cases people will
need
<Zakim> AnssiK, you wanted to note that timeRemaining was in but was dropped due to implementer's feedback
<Zakim> fjh, you wanted to subject
AnssiK: timeRemaining was in, but
was dropped due to implementer's feedback
... it's easy to put that part back in
... if we wish to do that
<darobin> [actually I think it was my feedback that dropped it]
AnssiK: Opera is running across
multiple platforms
... and they indicated that they had trouble implementing it
across platforms
<dom> [I think .timeRemaining would be set to null if it can't be detected]
darobin: if i recall correctly,
it was removed
... because i looked and saw it wasn't available in low level
apis
AnssiK: i think rich also raised
some concerns
... so it was your [ darobin ] feedback and his
darobin: i think we could do it
as dom suggested, using null otherwise
... i think all the desktop low level apis provide it
... and it's quite possible that iOS 5 may have it
... and Android has it
... if it's something that people want and there are use
cases
... i'm less convinced that it's more useful than semantic
<dom> Robin's review of other platform battery APIs
fjh: so where does that leave us? i thought we were going to LC
lgombos: I'm also questioning
time remaining as a feature, both from use cases
... and also from feasibility
<dom> "So the first conclusion I have is that we can kill timeRemaining. It doesn't seem to be available outside of desktop APIs (which are far more complete, including UPS support and all that)." -- Robin in that message
lgombos: i think time remaining
is predicting the future
... people can claim to be good at it
... but it can change drastically
... i think signalling you have 5 minutes left to the web page
can be confusing
<dom> (well, the spec could make it clear this is an estimation; it could even be called estimatedTimeRemaining if we prefer clarity to concision]
lgombos: if it turns out to be
wrong
... i'm not sure what the web page can do with 5 mintues left
v. 10 minutes left
<dom> (but I agree that the needs for timeRemaining are less clear than the need for semantic events)
<Zakim> jsoref, you wanted to talk about update notifications
lgombos: i kind of understand how semantic events could be useful
<darobin> [I tend to agree that the use cases for semantic events are strong, for timeRemaining I'm not yet convinced (but will go with the group's consensus)]
<dom> (I think the Critical event would address that use case)
<fjh> josh notes use case where writing to disk or network is expensive (both power and timewise) and that app could defer writes if knows there is enough battery to wait
<fjh> josh notes that app could learn from system if time estimate needs adjustment
<darobin> [I agree with dom]
<fjh> josh asks "what does critical mean to app"
<fjh> seems to me we have a fundamental disconnect here between higher level functionality and knowing what it means in terms of battery, not so deterministic
darobin: josh, i think your cases
are somewhat contrived
... when i got a low message, i'd start saving everything
... and when i get critical, i'd give up
... you generally need to save regularly anyway
... since you can't be sure you won't crash
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: we should wait a bit before we go further. And that we want to accept some of the feedback. Most people agree that semantic events are useful.
fjh: Some people wonder if they're practical
darobin: the difference is, if we
don't agree that we might want them, then we do no work at
all
... if we do agree that they're useful, then we look into the
practicality of implementing them
... as for time remaining, it's less clear
... i'm not sure we have consensus to remove it
<dom> ISSUE: do we need to give an estimated time remaining indication with battery events?
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-112 - Do we need to give an estimated time remaining indication with battery events? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/112/edit .
AnssiK: for Semantic events, is
it just a matter of dispatching an event with the same
information, but a different name?
... possibly with timeRemaining
... that's easy for spec writing
... the harder part is coming up with the prose
darobin: i'm not sure that we
need to provide much prose
... we can leave it to the implementation
... they can use whatever the system gives to them
... two different UAs on the same device should give roughly
the same event at the same time
AnssiK: that's so simple that i
could do it right away
... we could bike shed the event names :) ...
... that's the longest part of the work
... after that, we'd like to get implementer feedback
... but then again, they might not be looking at the spec with
those glasses on
... - what developers need -
... just from an implementer's point of view
darobin: for bike shedding, i'm open to the editor
<darobin> BatteryLow, BatteryCritical :)
AnssiK: editor is open to suggestions (by irc)
<dom> all lowercase indeed
AnssiK: are there best practices ... all lower case? camel case?
<darobin> batterylow, batterycritical
AnssiK: doug raised an important
point
... should we expose this to the global namespace or not?
... doug was thinking we should only expose it via
AddEventListener
... and not window.<foo>
darobin: I don't see the use case for having it on window
+1
AnssiK: it's currently on window,
but we could just get rid of it
... there are lots of legacy items on window
<dom> +1 on not having it on window
AnssiK: it seems to me that there's no established best practice
<dom> I think DeviceOrientaiton is considering removing it, have asked Hixie for feedback
darobin: i wouldn't take
inspiration from DeviceOrientation
... because it isn't finalized
... the only thing is detection
AnssiK: i looked at the
modernizer component
... and it does detection based on interface existance
darobin: the other thing you can do is detect if asking for the event results in an event immediately
AnssiK: points... whether we drop
the window.<onstuff>
... and also the body.<onstuff>
... whether we should drop both
... and do what doug suggested
... i looked at bugzilla.mozilla.org and saw that ... i think
offline/online events
<darobin> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: we should wait a bit before we go further. And that we want to accept some of the feedback. Most people agree that semantic events are useful. Time remaining has ISSUE-112. Remove onfoo on window and body
AnssiK: and it seems initially it
was exposed on window, and then later removed
... i think josh remembers it
yes, I remember it being removed
AnssiK: josh: do you remember the infrastructure behind events
RESOLUTION: we should wait a bit before we go further. And that we want to accept some of the feedback. Most people agree that semantic events are useful. Time remaining has ISSUE-112. Remove onfoo on window and body
ACTION AnssiK to remove window/body.onfoo
<darobin> ACTION: Anssi to implement changes to battery event based on feedback, and RESOLUTION from 20110629 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-dap-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-417 - Implement changes to battery event based on feedback, and RESOLUTION from 20110629 [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2011-07-06].
dom: how do we make progress on time remaining
darobin: i don't know...
... do we look at use cases?
... and decide if they're necessary?
... or are we more concerned about implementability
dom: i think it's both
... maybe we can give an action item to josh
... to identify use cases that require time remaining
<fjh> unmute jsoref
<darobin> ACTION: Josh to formulate the use cases he sees for timeRemaining, and if possible an implementation strategy for when that information isn't provided by the OS [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-dap-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-418 - Formulate the use cases he sees for timeRemaining, and if possible an implementation strategy for when that information isn't provided by the OS [on Josh Soref - due 2011-07-06].
AnssiK: should i formulate
something for semantic events in the ED now
... or ask the list
darobin: I think you should just
change the ED and notify the list
... the list needs to be notified at some point
... to inform people that the changes have been taken into
account
<dom> (I think fixing the draft first makes it clearer)
AnssiK: so there's no preference in the group
darobin: i have a preference for
not having a discussion about commit-then-review or
review-then-commit
... because i have had that discussion too many times
recently
+1
AnssiK: we can always revert
fjh: rich sent a message to the
list saying he was doing more for it
... [looks for message]
<fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Jun/0107.html
fjh: he's going to respond to the
feedback
... maybe we should wait for rich's input on this... instead of
rehashing it twice
... in terms of discussions about implementation
... and use cases
<fjh> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63223
fjh: I noticed that the WebKit
team was asking for justification to have this
implemented
... dom: if you had use cases, it might be helpful
... at least to try a use cases discussion
<dom> My use cases for Contacts API
darobin: we should be able to
provide an argument in favor of implementing our
specifications
... otherwise i don't know why we're writing them in the first
place
... I believe josh's feedback was integrated by dom
<dom> (only the editorial feedback; not sure if Josh also sent substantive feedback)
<Zakim> jsoref, you wanted to comment on that
My non editorial items were not integrated
scribe: I'm assuming that rich will address them
darobin: back to LC
tracking
... i guess that's something we can do right before the
f2f
... i presume, dom, that you won't be around to put it
together
... one thing that we could do is the LC tracking system
... fjh i think it's the one you were using for XMLSEC WG
fjh: you it works fine
darobin: do we need to do something to open new specs in it?
dom: i can take care of
that
... but the question is who takes care of it after
<dom> ACTION: Dom to open a Last Call comments tracker for Contacts API [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/29-dap-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-419 - Open a Last Call comments tracker for Contacts API [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2011-07-06].
darobin: if the team side sets up
the documents and we can do the rest
... and the chairs can take care of the comments, since there
aren't many
darobin: i think we're stuck on
feedback, including mine
... i have an action to reply to feedback
... that's entirely in my court
[ I need to give feedback ]
darobin: are there other
items?
... is there anything people would like to prioritize for the
f2f
... it's coming up in a few weeks
... if you have topics
... you can send feedback to the list / chairs
ADJOURNED