09:02:21 (Connected) 09:02:22 (You joined the channel) 09:02:22 The topic is: APA Teleconference; Wednesday 17 October at 1600Z. 09:02:22 Topic set by janina on Tue Oct 16 2018 21:35:55 GMT+0200 (Mitteleuropäische Sommerzeit). 09:02:56 MatthewBrennan joined the channel. 09:03:04 circ-user-NCAIz zakim, clear agenda 09:03:04 Zakim agenda cleared 09:03:20 circ-user-NCAIz TOPIC: Math prep 09:03:31 mck joined the channel. 09:04:42 (You are now known as Gottfried) 09:04:56 Gottfried was circ-user-NCAlz before 09:05:00 joanie present+ Joanmarie_Diggs 09:05:00 Gottfried scribe: Gottfried 09:05:05 Gottfried present + 09:05:16 Gottfried TOPIC: MATH prep 09:06:16 Gottfried Agenda: see https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2018 09:06:50 mrobinson joined the channel. 09:07:03 Roy present+ 09:07:08 joanie asks Gottfried if it would make sense to put that in the topic too? 09:07:28 Gottfried Is anybody on Webex? https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_apa-tpac 09:07:37 MichaelC has quit: "Leaving" 09:07:38 Gottfried Introductions... 09:07:43 MichaelC joined the channel. 09:08:17 Gottfried ... Mat King 09:08:22 Gottfried ... Matthew 09:08:27 Gottfried ... Ian 09:08:30 Gottfried ... Janina 09:09:05 Gottfried ... Martin Robertson 09:09:08 Gottfried ... Gottfried 09:09:31 Gottfried ... Steve Lee 09:10:14 mrobinson has quit: "" 09:10:34 Gottfried ... Joanie Digs 09:10:56 joanie s/Digs/Diggs/ 09:12:03 Gottfried Janina: We will have people from the Math community joining us at 11am. 09:13:17 Gottfried ... We want to spend this hour to prepare for this meeting. 09:14:08 Gottfried Joanie: Where are we and what are the next steps? 09:15:38 mrobinson joined the channel. 09:16:21 Gottfried ... Peter, the co-chair of the MathML community group, disagrees to continue with MathML. 09:17:01 Gottfried Mat: Which other technologies are being exploited today? 09:17:32 Gottfried Joanie: We do not have consensus on that. 09:17:49 aboxhall joined the channel. 09:18:19 clapierre joined the channel. 09:18:20 Gottfried Discussion on whether MathPlayer is still alive and being developed. 09:18:29 clapierre +1 09:19:00 Gottfried Joanie: VoiceOver was supposed to support MathML: 09:19:26 Gottfried ... I want the ORCA screen reader to support it, but i am not a Math person. 09:19:31 clapierre q+ 09:19:31 Zakim sees clapierre on the speaker queue 09:19:58 Gottfried ... Charles Lapiere introducing himself - joined late 09:20:02 joanie s/ORCA/Orca/ 09:20:04 Roy ack cl 09:20:05 Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 09:20:25 Gottfried Charles: I can give you some background on the Math discussion. 09:21:08 Gottfried ... Peter was pushing MathML, but got pushback. 09:21:24 Gottfried ... MathML is based on XML. 09:21:52 Gottfried ... Peter tried to get support for MathML into the browsers. 09:22:18 Gottfried ... Peter has now decided to turn around and explit other technologies to get math working on the web. 09:23:04 Gottfried ... Workshop "MathSummit" in the past summer. Thoughts about Math being brailled and spoken. 09:23:13 Gottfried ... Using ARIA, made some hacks. 09:24:13 Gottfried Joanie: We have some things that would use ARIA without making hacks. We just need to change ARIA a bit. 09:24:17 MatthewBrennan has quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds. 09:25:48 Gottfried Janina: Math specifics: equations, graphs, angles, shapes. Part of it is SVG, and part of it is a natural fit for ARIA. 09:26:05 Gottfried ... Symbols are in Unicode, so we need to nest and group. 09:26:24 Irfan joined the channel. 09:26:36 Irfan present+ 09:26:48 Gottfried Charles: There is presentational MathML and content MathML. Most of the work happens in presentational MathML - millions of works from publishers. 09:27:14 Gottfried ... Content MathML is about structuring and meaning of the symbols. 09:28:27 Gottfried ... Publishers are now stripping MathML off their books, and replacing it by images, even without text descriptions. 09:28:36 Gottfried ... Rumors that the MathML wg might get reborn. 09:28:45 Gottfried ... Neil could be leading this wg. 09:29:27 Gottfried ... I had a discussion with him on Friday. 09:29:57 Gottfried q? 09:29:58 Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 09:30:39 Gottfried ... Rendering of MathML is good in general. But publishers have some performance issues. 09:31:04 Gottfried Mat: Publishers are required to produce accessible books. 09:31:54 Gottfried Charles: Some publishers are putting alt text on images, using Benetech MathML cloud. MathJax will take the MathML and create alt-text for it. 09:32:25 Gottfried ... We have an accessible math test book with various techniques. All will go into epubtest.org 09:33:43 Gottfried ... Goal: SVG image, MathML hidden off screen. MathJax could be employed by JavaScript. AT can get MathML if wanted. 09:35:53 Gottfried Ian: From my limited experience, MathML is a bit like SVG. With simple things, works well. But gets complicated with more complex things. Not much tooling around. 09:36:22 Gottfried Irfan: When hiding alt-text, what do braille users do? 09:36:32 MatthewBrennan joined the channel. 09:36:52 Gottfried Charles: It is all in the hidden MathML that is visible to AT for using MathJax or browser support. 09:37:12 Gottfried ... Caveat is that you lose low-vision support for highlighting. 09:37:25 Gottfried ... But currently not much supported by AT anyway. 09:37:51 Gottfried ... Better support would be: Math rendered onscreen, and have semantics embedded in it. 09:38:05 Gottfried Janina: That's like reinventing MathML for structure. 09:38:14 Gottfried ... That's why Neil wants to re-start MathML wg 09:39:18 Gottfried Charles: There is a minority saying that MathML is dead. 09:40:34 Gottfried Janina: There is not necessarily just one approach. 09:40:38 joanie q+ 09:40:38 Zakim sees joanie on the speaker queue 09:40:44 Gottfried q+ ask on MathJax 09:40:45 Zakim sees joanie, ask on the speaker queue 09:41:22 Gottfried ... Some people are looking at corner cases (just 1%) where MathML would not work. 09:41:34 Gottfried ... Neil wants to focus on the 99% where it works. 09:41:51 Gottfried ... In the end, we may also target the corner cases. 09:42:02 Gottfried ... Neil really wants to get the MathML wg going again. 09:42:35 joanie q? 09:42:36 Zakim sees joanie, ask on the speaker queue 09:42:37 joanie ack me 09:42:37 Zakim sees ask on the speaker queue 09:42:40 Gottfried ... Neil says we will still need SVG support and other technologies that Peter wants to use. 09:44:26 Gottfried Joanie: What do we agree on? (1) We want a consistent user experience. (2) Speak it correctly, and braille it correctly. A screen reader does not necessarily have to understand the math semantics. 09:45:05 Gottfried Charles: We cannot add all the different semantics. 09:45:34 Gottfried Joanie: Does the tf have consensus on what approach to take? 09:46:17 Gottfried Janina: We agree on a good user experience. 09:46:47 Gottfried ... But problem is not just screen reader users. We have to think wider, including digital publishing. I guess it would push it toward authoring. 09:47:00 Gottfried q+ to mention AMAC's abandoning of MathML 09:47:00 Zakim sees ask, Gottfried on the speaker queue 09:47:03 IanPouncey1 joined the channel. 09:47:56 Gottfried Charles: There are data visualization groups working on this too. 09:48:17 Gottfried Janina: We need to slice the problem space, and get one piece accessible, then next, and so on. 09:48:42 joanie We already (hopefully) agree: The goal is to get a consistent user experience independent of what host language is used to render content. 09:49:22 joanie Question 1: Do ATs need to know the underlying semantics to provide support, or do we want to put $THINGS into place so that ATs magically do the right thing automatically? 09:49:45 IanPouncey has quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds. 09:50:08 Gottfried Janina: if we put it on AT, then every AT will do it differently -> no consistency. 09:50:42 Gottfried Mat: For ARIA we said, there would be no normative requirements on AT. 09:52:56 Gottfried ... There could be another layer feeding AT. 09:54:35 Gottfried Joanie: Ideally, we have MathML rendering everything. Peter has this SVG thing with choices. To get this totally accessible, you need a CSS-hidden HTML table, etc. 09:55:13 Gottfried Mat: For a given user, and a given technology, regardless of coding... 09:55:51 Gottfried Gottfried: A "consistent user experience" does not mean it is the same for every user. Personalization is important. 09:55:56 joanie New Version: We already (hopefully) agree: For a given user of a given AT, there should be a consistent user experience independent of what host language is used to render content. 09:56:02 joanie q? 09:56:03 Zakim sees ask, Gottfried on the speaker queue 09:56:14 joanie ack ask 09:56:14 Zakim ask, you wanted to comment on MathJax 09:56:16 Zakim sees Gottfried on the speaker queue 09:56:23 joanie ack Gottfried 09:56:24 Zakim Gottfried, you wanted to mention AMAC's abandoning of MathML 09:56:24 Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 09:56:31 Gottfried ack me 09:56:31 Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 09:56:42 Gottfried Gottfried: What is MathJax? 09:56:56 IanPouncey1 is now known as IanPouncey. 09:57:11 Gottfried Charles: MathJax takes MathML, renders it, and allows AT to navigate in it. 09:57:56 Gottfried ... There is a speech rule engine with a dictionary. 09:58:06 Gottfried Ian: It is like a polyfill for MathML. 10:00:20 Gottfried Gottfried: AMAC has abandoned MathML production. Temporary alternatives: Enhanced Tagged PDF (ETPDF) files, Long Description Microsoft Word Doc (DOCLD) files, and EPUB files. 10:00:44 Gottfried ... Does the Math community group have producers of alternative learning materials with them? 10:01:04 Gottfried Charles: Many people work with Latex. 10:01:33 Gottfried Gottfried: I could contact AMAC and ask for their support on this. 10:02:15 Gottfried Ian: Is high school text rendering the user case for us, or academic rendering? 10:03:12 Gottfried Ian: Maybe it is fine to start things with the consistent rendering? 10:04:56 Gottfried Joanie: Goal is to find out what the next steps are. We need to find out if these things need to be squeezed into ARIA 1.2. 10:05:10 IanPouncey To clarify, is the best approach to achieve adoption to have consistent rendering of basic math but lacking ability to describe high level math, or is it more important to focus on describing high level math possibly at the cost of consistent rendering (at least initially). 10:05:57 Gottfried Janina: Knowledge-domain accessibility. 10:07:43 Gottfried Joanie: Role description could help to let SRs "magically" speak the right things. 10:08:05 Gottfried ... Role description is a case where we need a braille strang in addition to the spoken strang. 10:09:12 Gottfried Charlie: Benetech is doing a Math editor. Need braille input. 10:09:15 joanie https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/771 10:09:28 joanie Consider addition of a property for input controls to provide untranslated Unicode braille key input events 10:10:09 Gottfried Joanie: Should ARIA wg in their own meetings try to tackle this? 10:10:32 Gottfried ... With the Math community group, we need to figure out what the next steps are? 10:11:32 Gottfried Janina: Use metadata to declare things, and preload stuff. 10:12:53 Gottfried Mat: We need to define the most important problems. 10:13:43 Gottfried ... Problem of consistent user experience. 10:13:54 Gottfried Joanie: The user should not have to know what the underlying markup is. 10:14:59 Gottfried ... SVG is ideal for rendering according to the author's intentions. 10:16:43 Gottfried Joanie: SVG elements have to be exposed to AT. 10:16:52 clapierre has quit: "Leaving." 10:17:38 joanie New Version: We already (hopefully) agree: For a given user of a given AT, there should be a consistent user experience independent of what host language is used to render content. 10:17:38 clapierre joined the channel. 10:17:41 joanie Question 1: Do ATs need to know the underlying semantics to provide support, or do we want to put $THINGS into place so that ATs magically do the right thing automatically? 10:18:45 Gottfried Janina: Almost okay with that. Needs to be compelling. 10:19:27 Gottfried Gottfried: Should add "personalized user experience". 10:20:07 Gottfried Ian: "Consistent, given your choice of user experience" 10:20:53 joanie New Version: We already (hopefully) agree: For a given user of a given AT, there should be a consistent, compelling, and robust user experience ***independent of what host language is used to render content.*** 10:20:56 Gottfried Mat: NVDA users vary in their settings. That's personalization. 10:21:37 Gottfried ... This is different from the personalization semantics in the personalization wg. 10:22:44 Gottfried Janina: "Compelling" means that as a reader you can discuss this with your classmates. 10:23:01 joanie INFORMAL: It should not suck regardless of the markup 10:23:08 jamesn joined the channel. 10:23:17 joanie Question 1: Do ATs need to know the underlying semantics to provide support, or do we want to put $THINGS into place so that ATs magically do the right thing automatically? 10:23:40 Gottfried Joanie: We need to split work up so each individual group can go off an do their work. 10:24:57 Gottfried Mat: As an AT developer, you are not going to develop support for half a dozen math description formats. 10:25:37 Gottfried Joanie: Like "btn" (AT knows it is "button"). 10:26:45 Gottfried Janina: We are not done when we get math done. We still have chemistry, linguistics, inter-linear content. We need to do knowledge domain. 10:26:45 MichaelC just noticed rrsagent is not in channel, minutes not logged 10:26:58 Gottfried Joanie: AT do not need to know knowledge domain semantics. 10:27:16 Gottfried Janina: Somebody with knowledge domain expertise needs to create these mappings. 10:27:36 Gottfried Mat: Accessibility tree strictly becomes a rendering engine. 10:28:01 Gottfried Ian: Will this be available in browsers, so that AT can support it? 10:28:25 Gottfried Joanie: Implementing support for ARIA roles is easy. 10:28:51 Gottfried ... And it is easy to expose these roles in the a11y tree. 10:29:31 Gottfried Ian: Then we are back to the MathJax approach, i.e. somebody is doing this for the browser. 10:30:35 Gottfried Mat: How can the semantics be expressed in an a11y tree? 10:30:41 Gottfried Joanie: Already by MathML. 10:34:11 Gottfried Gottfried: We do not want AT to be required to understand the math semantics, and we do not want to prevent AT from understanding the semantics (important for cog a11y). 10:34:39 Gottfried Mat: Is ARIA going to be explode into something really big? 10:34:51 joanie says "role all the things!" 10:34:56 Gottfried Janina: Yes, you can map stuff easily. 10:35:46 clapierre rrsagent, draft minutes 10:36:01 Gottfried Joanie: ARIA is a hammer and a screw-driver and a wretch. 10:36:29 RRSAgent joined the channel. 10:36:29 RRSAgent logging to https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-irc 10:36:39 Roy rrsagent, draft minutes 10:36:39 RRSAgent I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2018/10/22-apa-minutes.html Roy 10:36:59 Roy rrsagent, make log public 10:36:59 RRSAgent I have made the request, Roy 10:37:53 Roy scribe: Gottfried 10:38:00 nigel has quit: Client closed connection. 10:38:02 Roy TOPIC: Math prep 10:38:29 Roy has quit: "This computer has gone to sleep" 10:38:42 clapierre has quit: "Leaving." 10:38:46 clapierre joined the channel. 10:44:30 Gottfried zakim, who is here? 10:44:30 Zakim Present: janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, MichaelC, Irfan, Becka11y, IanPouncey, Roy 10:44:32 Zakim On IRC I see clapierre, RRSAgent, jamesn, IanPouncey, Irfan, aboxhall, mrobinson, MichaelC, Gottfried, janina, Zakim, slightlyoff, MichielBijl, trackbot, joanie, ShaneM