Re: Normative reference to schema.org in EPUB Accessibility?

On 2021-09-08 09:37 AM, Ivan Herman wrote:
> Ralph, Philippe,
> 
> this type of question comes up regularly, but I did not see any clear 
> cut answer.

There's no absolute determination in advance; this is intentional.  Each 
case has its own considerations.

> The EPUB Accessibility spec[1] has a section on package metadata[2] to 
> refer to metadata like access mode or accessibility features. The 
> specification defines these terms in general, meaning that it is not 
> properly defined which terms are to be used in a real metadata 
> instantiation; this is left to the separate WG Note on a11y 
> techniques[3] which reveals the thinly veiled fact that, in practice, 

"thinly veiled" is a big flag for me.  The spec should be clear and as 
precise as possible about the Working Group's intentions.  If the WG 
intends that the conformance expectations for an eventual W3C 
Recommendation maximize interoperability with specific metadata usage it 
should state so.  If it believes that the schema.org terms and their 
definitions are the correct solution, it should state so -- and be 
prepared to argue its position with the Director, the W3C Members, and 
the Community.

> these general terms refer to their equivalents in schema.org 
> <http://schema.org>[4]. Indeed, all the terms defined in [2] are, 
> actually, defined in schema.org <http://schema.org>, and those are the 
> only mappings for those terms. Those terms are not out of the blue, 
> actually: they have been developed, originally, in cooperation with the 
> IMS Global[5] and are now maintained on [6].

"maintained on [6]" does give me pause.  [6] does not state a 
maintenance policy and refers to an issue tracker that uses the pronoun 
"I" in many places, including its Resolved Issues section, and was last 
modified on 5 January 2018.  The parent page (WebSchemas) is explicitly 
disclaimed as "left primarily for historical record".  Is this in fact 
the authoritative place for maintaining the current accessibility 
vocabulary?

> The reason of this somewhat weird setting in [2] is to avoid normatively 
> referring to schema.org <http://schema.org>.

If the WG believes such a normative reference is what the Web needs, it 
should not shy away from stating that.

>  Actually, the 
> accessibility spec has an earlier version published at the ISO, and in 
> ISO land it was a clear no-no to do so. However, W3C is meant to be more 
> flexible and therefore the question does arise. However, our document on 
> normative references[7] is not 100% clear cut for me.
> 
> Hence this mail: does W3C has an official position as for a normative 
> reference to schema.org <http://schema.org> terms?

In this, as in many things, if the WG is able to obtain a clear and 
authoritative statement on the stability of the parts it wants to 
normatively reference, the organization (or community) who "owns" that 
stability, and the open process by which the referenced material is 
maintained, that is important to the Director's consideration.

> Specifically, is it 
> possible to simplify [1] and make a clear reference to schema.org 
> <http://schema.org> instead of the hand-weaving approach we have there 
> currently? In case of a positive answer, can we, possibly, add a 
> reference to schema.org <http://schema.org> in [7] just as we do with 
> the WhatWG?

It depends on the answers to the questions above (and maybe other 
questions that could arise) :)

-Ralph

> Thanks for your help
> 
> Ivan
> 
> 
> [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/ 
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/>
> [2] https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/#sec-disc-package 
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/#sec-disc-package>
> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-tech-11/#meta-002 
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/#sec-disc-package>
> [4] https://schema.org/accessMode <https://schema.org/accessMode>
> [5] http://www.imsglobal.org/activity/accessibility 
> <http://www.imsglobal.org/activity/accessibility>
> [6] https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Accessibility 
> <https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Accessibility>
> [7] https://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references 
> <https://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references>
> 
> 
> 
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ <http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/>
> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
> ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 
> <https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704>
>

Received on Wednesday, 8 September 2021 20:05:23 UTC