Re: 2.4.7 Focus Visible

Hi Marc

>>I have no idea how a mouse user can benefit from a Fokus indicator.

Visual disabled user cannot see the pointer clearly and benefit from a
clear indication of when they have clicked a control element.

Users with cognitive impairment benefit from a focus indicator to help them
remember what they have clicked, the active element.

Mobility impaired users using a pointer type device that doesn't display a
constant pointer also benefit from a focus indicator.

There is a large number of accessible use cases that benefit from a focus
indicator on pointer click.

>>be very careful what to ask users! They're not experts!

I think we need to be careful of telling users what is best for them.
Accessibility is about making the web as accessible as possible for as many
people as possible.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 11:37 PM Michael Livesey <mike.j.livesey@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Just of note, this is the response provided by chatGPT when asked about
> focus visible and accessibility for visually disabled users.
>
> "Visually disabled users may rely more on pointer-type devices, such as a
> mouse or trackpad, rather than keyboard navigation. It is important to keep
> in mind that the specific needs and preferences of users with disabilities
> can vary greatly. Consider providing a clear visual indication of focus for
> both keyboard and pointer users."
>
> The above seems along the lines of what I would propose as an advisory to
> 2.4.7.
>
> ChatGPT went on to make the following comments.
>
> "Respect user preferences: Some users may have specific preferences for
> focus styles or may use custom stylesheets to modify the appearance of web
> content. Ensure that your focus styles can be easily overridden or disabled
> by users who prefer or require alternative styles."
>
> "Test with diverse users: As accessibility needs can vary among
> individuals, it's important to involve users with different disabilities in
> your testing. Conduct usability tests with participants who use different
> assistive technologies, such as screen readers, keyboard-only navigation,
> or pointer devices, to gather feedback and ensure your focus styles work
> effectively for a wide range of users."
>
>
> On Sunday, July 16, 2023, Marc Haunschild
> <marc.haunschild@accessibility.consulting> wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> > There is even a much more simple way to address some persons needs:
> plugins.
> > As a matter of fact, there obvious are people wanting a focus
> highlighting and people, that really have problems because of it.
> > The best thing about accessibility is - in my opinion - that people are
> free to use tools that help them meet there own needs.
> > For example accessible ICT can be used with mouse and/ or keyboard and/
> or touch screen and/ or voice input…
> > As HTML and CSS are well known standards, it’s not a big thing to write
> a plugin or bookmarklet to change the design to your own needs.
> > In the EU support of user settings is mandatory, so persuading browser
> vendors to implement it, would be the more sustainable solution of course…
> >
> > 11.7 User preferences
> >
> > Where Web-App is not designed to be isolated from its platform, and
> provides a user interface, that user interface shall follow the values of
> the user preferences for platform settings for: units of measurement,
> colour, contrast, font type, font size, and focus cursor except where they
> are overridden by the user.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > NOTE 2: For web content, the underlying platform is the user agent.
> >
> > Of course all manipulation works better with valid HTML - which is yet
> another reason to have back a SC that demands valid HTML, sigh…
> > Standards are the only way to ensure compatibility for all UAs tech
> stacks (OS, Browser, SR/ screen…), user tweaks and preferences. But that is
> a discussion I gave up long ago. Still missing this particular WCAG 1.0 SC
> nevertheless…
> > — Marc
> >
> >
> > Am 11.07.2023 um 01:43 schrieb Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk
> >:
> > On 11/07/2023 00:07, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> >
> > On 10/07/2023 23:42, Michael Livesey wrote:
> >
> > Even Patrick appears not to appreciate how it operates, suggesting on
> Firefox a single keyboard use will trigger it for subsequent mouse clicks.
> >
> > Patrick does appreciate how it was implemented in Firefox
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1445482#c19, but Patrick
> must have missed a recent change that tweaked that behaviour.
> >
> > And now these repressed memories are finally coming back to me ... here
> are the bugs I filed back in the day about getting browsers to implement an
> override switch to allow :focus-visible to always kick in even after
> mouse/pointer interaction. Boosting this/lobbying browsers to do this has,
> in my view, a much greater chance to provide a simple solution that then
> satisfies all different constituencies/stakeholders, and again puts the
> control back in users hands/preferences (rather than pushing/advocating for
> one solution for everybody)
> >
> > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1742284
> >
> > https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1272296
> >
> > P
> > --
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> > https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> > https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> >
> >
> >