W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > xml-dist-app@w3.org > January 2006

Re: Action Item - Part I: WSRX and MEP signaling on the wire

From: David Hull <dmh@tibco.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:40:52 -0500
To: Christopher B Ferris <chrisfer@us.ibm.com>
Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
Message-id: <43C5EBE4.5040303@tibco.com>

Thanks for the response.  You are of course right that WS-RM defines
acknowledgment at the reliability layer:  A message is acknowledged and
/then/ delivered.  Interestingly, WS-Reliability at least appears to
take the other approach: A message is delivered to the application level
and then acknowledged.  At least, the WS-R picture with four boxes in it
shows arrows /both ways/ between the application and reliability layers,
while WS-RM shows arrows only one way.

I'm shocked, shocked I say, to find a source of potential confusion
among reliability standards.

In any case, leaving aside the possibility that delivery could involve
arbitrary amounts of application-level processing (e.g., I want to know
when the receiver taken some action based on my message, not just that
the message arrived), I believe that the issues I'm describing will
occur whenever there is more than one transport-level hop involved, and
I believe that both flavors of reliability standard allow for this.  If
not, then I'd think there would be a need for some sort of extension to
cover such cases.  I think the analogy to return-receipt is fairly
tight.  The return receipt is meant to ack not only that the message
arrived in a mailbox, but that someone actually saw it.

As far as I can tell, there shouldn't be any significant difference from
the reliability layer's point of view between forwarding a message along
another hop and doing some other sort of processing before declaring it
delivered.  In either case, I don't send back an ack until something
arbitrarily long-running and outside my control finishes happening.

The real feature I'm really trying to highlight here is that the flow of
messages and acks may be decoupled in various ways from the
transport-level flow of requests and responses.  From your comments, may
I take it that you accept that premise?  As has been pointed out, this
is essentially building a separate protocol of messages and acks on top
of a protocol of requests and responses.  Mark has already done a good
deal more than cringe at this.

As to HTTP request-response and SOAPiness thereof, we seem to be
converging on a "standard model" matching what you describe.  I'm
certainly comfortable with "HTTP is always request-response, but the
either the request or the response or both may not be SOAPy".  I'm not
sure if DaveO would put it quite that way, but I'll let him speak for
himself on that.

Generalizing a bit, there are transports that act in a request-response
manner, as Noah describes in [1].  HTTP is one and, from what I can make
out, XMPP's <iq/> mechanism can be regarded as another.  There are also
transports that act in a fire and forget manner, for example XMPP's
<message/> mechanism.  For these, the MEP will always be one-way, fire
and forget or whatever we call it. 

The transport MEP is (unsurprisingly) a static property of the transport.

Christopher B Ferris wrote:

> Apologies for the belated response... too much travel. Please see my
> comments below.
> Cheers,
> Christopher Ferris
> STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
> email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/dw_blog.jspa?blog=440
> phone: +1 508 377 9295
> xml-dist-app-request@w3.org wrote on 01/04/2006 05:24:37 PM:
> > This is a bit more free-form than I'd originally intended, but bear
> > with me.  I think we get somewhere.
> >
> > First, a motivating use case involving reliability.  I believe there
> > are WSRX members on this list or at least lurking nearby.  If so,
> > please let me know if I've missed something fundamental.
> >
> > The reliability standards I've seen distinguish between
> > submit/deliver and transmit/receive.  Transmitting and receiving are
> > transport-level concepts and carry no particular guarantee of
> > reliability.  An acknowledgment message acknowledges not that a
> message was
> > received at the transport level, but that it was delivered to its
> Not so. The WS-RM SequenceAcknowledgement merely acknowledges that the
> message was successfully received. It makes no claims whatsoever that the
> message has, or even will, be delivered to the ultimate recipient.
> It is effectively the equivalent of the HTTP 202 Accepted response in its
> meaning. The distinction is that an HTTP 202 Accepted is returned on the
> same connection as the HTTP request message, whereas the WS-RM SeqAck
> can be returned on a separate connection and that it covers the complete
> range(s) of received messages received, such that it need not be
> transmitted
> (or transferred as the case may be) reliably.
> > ultimate recipient.  Just exactly what this means is left out of
> > scope.  Essentially a message is considered received if the sending
> > side learns of an acknowledgment for it according to whatever
> > acknowledgment scheme is in effect.
> >
> > The upshot here is that, even if I use a TCP-based transport, and
> > even if that transport allows for status codes or some other
> > indication of a successful exchange, successful transmission of a
> > message does not imply successful delivery.  Delivery might depend
> > on some further application-level processing, forwarding to another
> > destination, or whatever.
> See above.
> >
> > To be concrete, suppose I am using WSN or similar to manage sending
> > notifications to a given node.  I have provided an HTTP endpoint
> > reference for the consumer of the subscriptions, and I have
> > specified (using WSN's not-yet-specified policy assertions :-) that
> > these notifications should be delivered reliably.
> Actually, you would specify the use of WS-RM using the WS-RM Policy
> Assertion:-)
> >
> > Notifications are inherently one-way.  Given HTTP as a transport, we
> > would want to use the request-optional-response MEP to send
> > notifications.  I'm not sure if WSRX does (or doesn't) support what
> > I'm about to describe, but I would expect that the producer (or
> > something acting on its behalf, but that's a separate issue) send
> > notifications to the consumer by POSTing SOAP messages to the HTTP
> > address given in the subscription request.
> >
> > What comes back?
> >
> > In the absence of other information, I would expect that each
> > notification POST should get as its response either a 202 or a SOAP
> > message containing acknowledgment information for some set of
> > previous messages.  The 202 would happen if there were no
> reliability-level
> > acknowledgments available.  Alternatively, the server could send
> > always back an acknowledgment message.  If there were nothing new to
> > acknowledge, it would be identical to the previous one.  I don't
> > have a strong opinion as to which of these is better; my intuition
> > is to allow for either.
> Agreed, especially given that there is no requirement in WS-RM that
> a SequenceAcknowledgement be sent for each and every received message.
> In fact, technically, there is only one SequenceAcknowledgement required;
> the one that covers the entire range of messages in the Sequence.
> In practice, however, it is likely that implementations will send a
> "naked" SequenceAcknowledgement message in the HTTP response entity
> body for oneway notifications/messages on each response. It should be
> noted
> that the SequenceAcknowledgement may not necessarily include the message
> number of the message transferred on the HTTP request message.
> >
> > An interesting variant occurs when the producer is sending multiple
> > streams of notifications to the consumer, in which case a
> > notification in one stream might elicit an acknowledgment for a
> > notification from a different stream.  Why not?  The HTTP response
> > channel is available and might not be available again for
> arbitrarily long.
> This is supported by WS-RM.
> >
> > Notable points:
> > The transport-level MEP is always request response.
> In the context of the HTTP binding, yes (although I am
> SURE that MB will cringe at the use of the term "transport-level" :-)
> > The SOAP MEP is always request-optional-response
> > The application-level MEP is always one-way
> > The potentially complex part here is in the reliability layer.  It
> > sees two streams of messages: notifications coming out and
> > acknowledgments coming back.  From this point of view
> > The flow of acknowledgments is independent of the transport-level
> > flow (a given HTTP response acknowledges zero or more notifications)
> > The flow of acknowledgments is independent of the application-level
> > flow (for the same reason)
> yes
> > The flow of notifications ought to be independent of the transport
> > level flow.  If nothing else, WSN allows for boxcarring of
> > notifications: a given "notify" SOAP message may contain several
> > notifications (but does the reliability layer know this?).
> No, WS-RM would only be concerned with the message, not its contents.
> > Further, since the reliability layer may retransmit, so a given
> > application-level notification may trigger more than one transport-
> > level message.
> > The recurring theme I'm seeing here is that each level has its own
> > view of message flow.  Often, those views will converge, but they
> Bingo.
> > can diverge for any number of perfectly ordinary reasons, even
> > leaving aside cases involving cell phones and tunnels:
> > A request-response operation may be realized as more than one
> > transport-level exchange (the WSA "async request-response" case)
> > A one-way operation may be realized as a request-response, either as
> > a push operation or through polling.
> Even a oneway message over the HTTP binding involves a request/response.
> The distinction, as I have seen in other emails, in this and related
> threads, is the SOAPiness of the response.
> > Retransmission means that one application-level operation may
> > manifest as several transport-level operations, even where the
> > application-level operation would otherwise match the transport level.
> > Boxcarring, where applicable, means that several application-level
> > operations may manifest as a single transport-level operation.  
> > Reliability-level acknowledgments boxcar by design.
> Don't know if I would necessarily use that term, but yes... as discussed
> above, the SeqAck covers the entire range of messages in the Sequence,
> not
> just the last one received as would be the case of an HTTP 2xx response.
> > This may seem complex, but there is a bright side.  The various
> concerns
> > have to be separated, so we might as well gain from this separation.
> You go, girl! This has been my point all along.
> > In particular, SOAP can focus narrowly on abstracting the
> > characteristics of the transport and not worry about anything else.
> > I'm more and more convinced that we're about done as far as HTTP is
> concerned:
> > The SOAP request-(optional-)response MEP describes a SOAP message
> > going out and something SOAPy optionally coming back.
> As Noah points out, something optionally SOAPy coming back.
> > The SOAP response MEP describes a non-SOAP request and something
> > SOAPy coming back.
> > Um, how do we describe a SOAP request and something non-SOAPy coming
> back?
> > We shouldn't have to worry about non-SOAP out and non-SOAP back, right?
> Correct. 
Received on Thursday, 12 January 2006 05:41:02 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 22:01:28 UTC