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Re: Issues 368 and 369 Proposal

From: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 22:24:40 -0500
To: "David Fallside" <fallside@us.ibm.com>
Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
Message-ID: <OFDA01B86D.A251DCD8-ON85256C68.001288C0@lotus.com>

I hate to say this, but I still have a problem with this:

>> An implementation MUST implement all of the 
>> mandatory ("MUST") requirements expressed 
>> in Part 1 of the SOAP 1.2 specification 
>> to claim conformance with the SOAP 1.2 
>> specification.

This appears to rule out sender-only implementations, for example, since 
many of the MUSTS relate to receivers, or at least that's how I parse this 
sentence.  I still think we need to say something that makes clear that 
when implementing a particular format (SOAP envelope, encoding, etc) or 
aspect of the specification (sender, receiver, etc.) that you MUST never 
fail to do something that the specification says you MUST do.  That's not 
the same as saying you MUST have code to do lots of things that you know 
won't come up.  For example, a trivial (if not very useful) conforming 
responder is one that always faults with an indication that it does not 
understand the request.  One step up is a responder that never understands 
or processes any headers, always giving a fault if any targeted at it are 
mU.  And so on.

I think this still needs tuning.  Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn                              Voice: 1-617-693-4036
IBM Corporation                                Fax: 1-617-693-8676
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
------------------------------------------------------------------







"David Fallside" <fallside@us.ibm.com>
Sent by: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org
11/04/2002 09:49 PM

 
        To:     xml-dist-app@w3.org
        cc:     (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
        Subject:        Re: Issues 368 and 369 Proposal




Here is a revised version of the proposal for a new Conformance section, 
to
appear after the Notational sections in Parts 1 and 2. Issue 367 asks for 
a
conformance section and a scoping for SOAP which is answered in terms of
usage scenarios. Issues 368 and 369 ask for clarifications: of the
implementation object - see para 2 on SOAP Node, of conformance - see para
1 on adhering to MUSTs, and of Part 1/2 obligations - see para 2 on Part
1/2.

<revised_proposal>
1.@@ Conformance
An implementation MUST implement all of the mandatory ("MUST") 
requirements
expressed in Part 1 of the SOAP 1.2 specification to claim conformance 
with
the SOAP 1.2 specification. In addition, an implementation MAY implement
any number of the Adjuncts specified in Part 2 of the SOAP 1.2
specification.
(Note there is no conformance associated with the convention for 
describing
features and bindings [ref]). The implementation of an Adjunct MUST
implement
all of the mandatory requirements expressed in the specification of the
Adjunct
to claim conformance with the Adjunct.

A SOAP Node provides the implementation of Part 1, any Adjuncts from Part
2, and
any other technologies allowed within the scope of the SOAP 1.2
specification.

SOAP 1.2 is designed to enable at least the usage scenarios described in
SOAP Version 1.2 Usage Scenarios [ref], and possibly other scenarios.
Informal descriptions showing XML representations of concrete SOAP 
messages
used in some common scenarios are provided in SOAP Version 1.2 Part 0:
Primer [ref].
</revised_proposal>

............................................
David C. Fallside, IBM
Ext Ph: 530.477.7169
Int  Ph: 544.9665
fallside@us.ibm.com



|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           "Jean-Jacques    |
|         |           Moreau"          |
|         |           <moreau@crf.canon|
|         |           .fr>             |
|         |           Sent by:         |
|         |           xml-dist-app-requ|
|         |           est@w3.org       |
|         |                            |
|         |                            |
|         |           10/18/2002 01:19 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                      |
  |       To:       Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM@Lotus    |
  |       cc:       David Fallside/Santa Teresa/IBM@IBMUS, 
xml-dist-app@w3.org                                                  |
  |       Subject:  Re: Issues 368 and 369 Proposal           |
  |                                                      |
  |                                                      |
 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|




Noah, I agree with your comments below (albeit it would be an
advantage to the editors and to implementors to not have
conforming initial senders, as it would make the spec shorter and
easier to implement. ;-)).

More seriously, I think the statement needs to be revised.

Jean-Jacques.

noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com wrote:
> Just curious, anyone have further comments on the attached?  Thanks.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn                              Voice: 1-617-693-4036
> IBM Corporation                                Fax: 1-617-693-8676
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Noah Mendelsohn
> 10/14/2002 04:35 PM
>
>
>         To:     "David Fallside" <fallside@us.ibm.com>
>         cc:     xml-dist-app@w3.org
>         Subject:        Re: Issues 368 and 369 Proposal
>
>
>
>>>A SOAP node can claim to conform to the SOAP 1.2 specification when it
>
> processes SOAP messages that conform to the SOAP message construct [see
5.
> SOAP Message Construct] and according to the SOAP processing rules [see
2.
> SOAP Processing Model].
>
> This seems to imply that you can't have conforming initial senders, 
since

> they don't process messages per the Processing Model.  I don't have
> proposed text, but the spirit of what we need is:  "what you do, you do
> according to the rec."  I can't think of any one part of the
> recommendation that must in all cases be implemented by a node.  Initial
> senders and ultimate receivers seem to have relatively disjoint
> requirements;  intermediaries have requirements which overlap with both
> initial sender and ultimate receiver, but intermediaries have some
> requirements of their own.   When MEPs are considered, the
> responsibilities change further;  an ultimate receiver in
request/response
>
> has an obligation to respond, and the originial sende waits for the
> response.   Furthermore,  use of features can, in principle, override
> quite a few of the rules that would otherwise apply to senders,
receivers,
>
> and intermediaries.
>
> Bottom line:  I think there's a real risk that by making a conformance
> statement we inadvertently restate the recommendation in different or
more
>
> restrictive form.  Why do we need one?  Doesn't the recommendation speak
> for itself?  If we do need one, I think it needs to talk about the
> responsibilities of initial senders, ultimate recipient, and
intermediary.
>
>  It needs to take account of the fact that we do not have any notion of 
a

> general purpose SOAP processor in any case:   traffic lights are ok.
> Furthermore,  the features you use, including MEPs (such as the ones we
> supply) can both tighten and loosen the rules.
>
> We need to be very careful here, I think.  Thanks.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn                              Voice: 1-617-693-4036
> IBM Corporation                                Fax: 1-617-693-8676
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "David Fallside" <fallside@us.ibm.com>
> Sent by: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org
> 10/14/2002 02:54 PM
>
>
>         To:     xml-dist-app@w3.org
>         cc:     (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
>         Subject:        Re: Issues 368 and 369 Proposal
>
>
>
> Here's some text to start from. It fudges exactly what is conformance
> (para
> 2, sentence 1) -- awaiting the outcome of John's suggested discusion
topic
> -- but I think it answers the other issues. The text would be added as
new
> subsections into Parts 1 and 2.
>
> <proposal>
> 1.3 Conformance
> A conforming implementation of the SOAP specification is called a SOAP
> node
> [ref].
>
> A SOAP node can claim to conform to the SOAP 1.2 specification when it
> processes SOAP messages that conform to the SOAP message construct [see
5.
> SOAP Message Construct] and according to the SOAP processing rules [see
2.
> SOAP Processing Model]. Implementers should find the assertions and 
tests
> described in SOAP Version 1.2 Specification Assertions and Test
Collection
> [ref] useful in building and testing conformant SOAP nodes. A SOAP node
> may
> additionally implement: support for the SOAP data model [ref], the SOAP
> encoding of that data model [ref], the SOAP RPC representation [ref], 
and
> the SOAP HTTP binding, or any combination thereof, although such
> implementations are not required of a SOAP 1.2 compliant SOAP node. To
> briefly summarise, a SOAP node must implement Part 1 of the SOAP 1.2
> specification to be compliant, and it may additionally implement any, 
all
> or none of the adjuncts from Part 2 of the SOAP 1.2 specification
although
> any such implementations do not change the implementation's compliance 
to
> the SOAP 1.2 specification.
>
> SOAP 1.2 is designed to enable at least the usage scenarios described in
> SOAP Version 1.2 Usage Scenarios [ref], and possibly other scenarios.
> Informal descriptions showing XML representations of concrete SOAP
> messages
> used in some common scenarios are provided in SOAP Version 1.2 Part 0:
> Primer [ref].
> </proposal>
>
> ............................................
> David C. Fallside, IBM
> Ext Ph: 530.477.7169
> Int  Ph: 544.9665
> fallside@us.ibm.com
>
>
>
> Monday, October 14, 2002 6:16 AM
> To: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> cc:
> From: John Ibbotson/UK/IBM@IBMGB
> Subject: Issues 368 and 369 Proposal
>
>
>
>
> Issue 369 and most of issue 368 seek to calrify the conformance criteria
> for the SOAP 1.2 specification. The issues were raised as part of a
review
> of the SOAP WG documents bythe W3C QA WG.
>
> The relevant parts of issue 368 are:
> There is no dedicated Conformance section that would
> 1. when an implementation could claim conformance to the SOAP 1.2 spec,
> and
> what does it mean.
> 2. clearly state that Part I is obligatory and any adjunct from the Part
> II
> is optional.
>    What combinations of the adjuncts in Part II are allowed.
> 3. State explicitly, does the implementation of the Part I that does not
> use any of the adjunct of the Part II still conform to the
>    SOAP 1.2 specification.
>
> Issue 369 states that:
> Embedded in the issue 368. Not clear if the implementation is required 
to
> implement any of the adjuncts from the Part 2 in order to
> conform to the SOAP 1.2 specification.
>
> Discussion:
> The two issues taken together raise the point that there is no clear
> statement on what constitutes conformance to the SOAP 1.2 specification.
> In particular:
>    It is unclear when and how an implementation can claim conformance
>    Whether to be conformant, part 1 of the specification is obligatory
and
>    part 2 is optional
>
> Conformance is further complicated by statements made in the SOAP
> Version1.2 Specification Assertions and Test Collection document [1]. In
> section1 (Introduction) of that document, it states that :
> "A SOAP 1.2 implementation that passes all of the tests specified in 
this
> document may claim to conform to the SOAP 1.2 Test Suite $Date 
2002/06/26
> $."
> In the following paragraph, it states that conformance to the test suite
> does not imply conformance to the SOAP 1.2 specification since there are
> mandatory
> requirements in the specification that are not tested in the test suite
> (for example that every legal value of a role name is accepted and all
> illegal role names are
> rejected). The same paragraph goes on to say that:
> "An implementation may be said to be SOAP 1.2 conformant if and only if
it
> it satisfies the conformance requirements specified in SOAP 1.2
> specifications.
> The W3C does not at this time provide for any comprehensive means of
> testing for such conformance."
> Neither part 1 or part 2 of the specification contain any statement with
> respect to conformance.
>
> The introduction also states that applications may be conformant even if
> they do not implement all of the test suite. This is to support
> applcations
> in special purpose
> implementations such as dedicated controllers which only implement a
> limited set of messages.
>
> Proposals for discussion:
> I see two starting points for WG discussion:
>    If we accept that there are parts of the SOAP 1.2 specification for
>    which there are no testable assertions, then we should accept that 
the
>    set of test cases are "as close as we can test". Therefore we should
>    state in the specifications part 1 and part 2 that conformance to the
>    set of testable assertions is the same as conformance to the
>    specification.
>    XML Schema [2] proposes three levels of conformance by profiling the
>    specification. For the SOAP 1.2 specification, this would correespond
> to
>    part 1 wih profiles based on part 2.
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-soap12-testcollection-20020626
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#concepts-conformance
>
> John
>
> Emerging ebusiness Industry Architecture ,
> XML Technology and Messaging,
> IBM UK Ltd, Hursley Park,
> Winchester, SO21 2JN
>
> Tel: (work) +44 (0)1962 815188        (home) +44 (0)1722 781271
> Fax: +44 (0)1962 816898
> Notes Id: John Ibbotson/UK/IBM
> email: john_ibbotson@uk.ibm.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Monday, 4 November 2002 22:28:14 GMT

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