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Re: Announce: A brief history of SOAP

From: Dave Winer <dave@userland.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:35:29 -0800
Message-ID: <1f4f01c0ba2a$8252ef80$33a1dc40@murphy2>
To: "Alan Moore" <Alan@tensquare.com>, <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
Thanks Alan, I agree.

I belong to a school of development that Doug Engelbart calls
"bootstrapping".

http://www.bootstrap.org/

It works well for what I do. I try never to skip a step.

I don't know if it's the only way to develop complex software, but it's the
way I do it.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Moore" <Alan@tensquare.com>
To: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: Announce: A brief history of SOAP


> With all due respect to both Don and Dave, I think the disconnect here has
> to do with a difference in assumptions.
>
> Dave is assuming that the developers using SOAP today are doing so
directly
> w/o the help of tools/metadata and cannot wait for those elements to
mature.
>
> Don is assuming that the only developers to use SOAP will be the tool
> builders who will make the low level details irrelevant in the near
future.
>
> Both assumptions appear to be correct and differ only in the timelines in
> which end results are needed or expected.
>
> The tools Don is referring to are not going to be built in a day so Dave's
> comments are relevant - the people on the streets need interop today even
if
> it has to be achieved by brute force and agreed upon "mano a mano".
>
> On the other hand, Dave's valuable experience fuels Don's argument about
> hiding the low level grunge. To ignore this point is to pass up an
> opportunity to make life simpler for everyone down the road.
>
> For what it is worth...
>
> alan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Winer
> To: Box, Don; 'Fredrik Lundh'
> Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> Sent: 3/31/01 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: Announce: A brief history of SOAP
>
> Don doesn't know the difference betw his opinion and fact.
>
> I've given a lot of thought to your pov, now do the return favor.
>
> When I see a layer in software I always ask if I can collapse it, to
> simplify the workings of the machine underneath.
>
> Your mind seems to work the other way.
>
> I ask "What flexibility was put there at the beginning that is no longer
> needed based on what we know about how people use this?"
>
> This is how you get to usability in all things. I've got a long career
> behind me learning that lesson and a lot of credibility in the form of
> products that were commercial hits, moneymakers and award-winners. Until
> it's simple and efficient no one gets it. Then it can get horribly
> complex
> and yucky, after it gets in. At the beginning it must be easy.
>
> Have you ever stopped to wonder why the SOAP world is perpetually at the
> starting gate Don?
>
> Maybe it would be a good idea to stop and think about that.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Box, Don" <dbox@develop.com>
> To: "'Fredrik Lundh'" <fredrik@pythonware.com>; "Box, Don"
> <dbox@develop.com>
> Cc: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 10:04 AM
> Subject: RE: Announce: A brief history of SOAP
>
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Fredrik Lundh [mailto:fredrik@pythonware.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 2:35 AM
> > > To: Box, Don
> > > Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> > > Subject: Re: Announce: A brief history of SOAP
> > >
> > >
> > > > You can read it at http://www.develop.com/dbox/postsoap.html
> > >
> > >     "Does SOAP/XML Messaging make sense without something like
> > >     WSDL? No way"
> > >
> > > huh?  I've got lots of users for my python soap implementation,
> > > and now you're saying that what they do doesn't make sense?
> >
> > Without a machine-readable metadata format, there are too many
> opportunities
> > for misinterpretation, especially when bridging to type systems that
> have
> a
> > strict type system (e.g., Java, .NET, C++/COM, JDBC). This got hashed
> out
> on
> > the SOAP list ages ago.
> >
> > > what have we missed?
> >
> > In a script-only world, probably nothing. However, for folks who
> aren't
> > using Perl/Python/Tcl etc, the lack of metadata makes all of this XML
> stuff
> > very stone-age.
> >
> > I firmly believe that within 12 months, schema compilers will render
> things
> > like the DOM and SAX fairly obsolete except for low-level XML wonks.
> In
> the
> > absence of metadata, this just can't happen.
> >
> > DB
> > http://www.develop.com/dbox
> >
>
Received on Saturday, 31 March 2001 16:36:09 GMT

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