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Re: XMail and XML Protocols (WAS: Removal (Time for XMail?))

From: Kurt Cagle <cagle@olywa.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:46:32 -0700
Message-ID: <001c01c029d8$9f7f9ff0$08cc01d0@aleria>
To: "James Snell" <jsnell@lemoorenet.com>, <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
The WebDAV extensions are basically XML-based, in that they return XML
objects upon queries. The biggest issue to be resolved is essentially
compatibility with existing email protocols -- to that end, I could see
evolving something like a redundant system as a bridge -- the headers
contain the same SMTP information they always have had, while a mirror of
this information as a SOAP entity accompanies this -- the headers for HTTP
SOAP work this way, at least in the implementations I've seen.

An XML Email solution is, to me, a must have in order to move down the road
with distributed computing.  HTTP effectively solves the case of relatively
synchronous request/response architectures, but is less than adequate for
highly asynchronous messaging systems, which is in fact one of the places
where email is used now. You send your order off as an SMTP protocol message
to a mail server which can both send back a notification of receipt and
place it in a queue. Note that this is not an original idea -- I've seen it
floated around for awhile, but generally with the concept that you're using
SMTP as the wrapping entity for a SOAP message rather than using a SOAP
message as the wrapping entity for an SMTP echo. Yet going the latter route
essentially means that you can process the XML through any port, so long as
its known that it satisfies a SMTP schema.



----- Original Message -----
From: "James Snell" <jsnell@lemoorenet.com>
To: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: XMail and XML Protocols (WAS: Removal (Time for XMail?))


> I've been thinking about this kind of thing myself.. it actually wouldn't
be
> that hard to map existing SMTP concepts to a protocol such as SOAP or
> whatever the XML Protocol group comes up with.  In fact, a few months ago,
I
> played around with creating a SOAP to SMTP bridge that ended up being
pretty
> simple if not extremely crude.  Anyway, as a long term vision, I can see
the
> efforts of the XML Protocol working group leading not only to an XML-based
> mail protocol, but also to a completely XML-based replacement to HTTP and
> other popular protocols, uniting all of them in a common framework.  Just
a
> thought :-).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org [mailto:xml-dist-app-request@w3.org]On
> Behalf Of Kurt Cagle
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:11 AM
> To: Michael Brennan
> Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Removal (Time for XMail?)
>
>
> Michael,
>
> I'm not so sure that its altogether that far off topic. We have two
primary
> mechanisms for data transport across the web -- HTTP, of course, and SMTP.
> I've heard all kinds of interesting strategies for bringing XML to HTTP,
> from WebDAV on down, but it would seem to me that work on a similar
protocol
> for upgrading SMTP to an XML basis could provide some powerful dividends.
> None of this need be visible to the user -- the SMTP container would
> essentially be something like a SOAP envelope wrapped around the plain
text
> or HTML content. Among other things, it would make it easier to provide
> consistent mechanisms for handling mailing lists, including unsubscribe
> information, and it could even make it reasonable to handle such XMail
> through HTTP ports as readily as through SMTP ones. Just an addled
thought.
> Good luck on getting some standardization on mailing lists, though.
>
> -- Kurt Cagle
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Brennan" <Michael_Brennan@Allegis.com>
> To: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:16 PM
> Subject: RE: Removal
>
>
> > I don't mean to start a thread about this, but I felt like making a few
> > points.
> >
> > If you check the mail headers, you'll notice that there are headers that
> > tell how to unsubscribe and how to query for help about the list. Of
> course,
> > most user-friendly mail programs do not by default display these
headers.
> I
> > believe the intent is that email programs could use the headers
> > intelligently to provide menus or buttons right within the program for a
> > user to unsubscribe or query for help. It would be really nice to see
> > Microsoft and other vendors support this functionality in their programs
> to
> > make this easy. (I'm not trying to single out Microsoft, here, but since
> > they have about 80-90% of the email market, anything they do has a much
> > bigger impact than anyone else.) If vendors would jump on board with
this,
> I
> > think things would work much better. Almost every email list I subscribe
> to
> > are providing such headers and are doing so in a consistent manner.
> >
> > Some of the lists, instead, add standard footers to every message sent
to
> > list subscribers that includes info on how to unsubscribe. You'd think
> that
> > would reduce the "unsubscribe" requests to the list, but it doesn't.
I've
> > seen messages on such lists that have a one-line "unsubscribe" request
> > immediately followed by a standard footer that explains how to properly
> > unsubscribe (and in some such instances, the user actually followed up
the
> > initial request with additional ones). Some people are just plain
> clueless.
> >
> > Ideally, list server programs should be configured with filters that
> detect
> > one-line subscribe and unsubscribe instructions, that block the message
> from
> > the list and send a friendly message to the sender directing them to a
FAQ
> > on netiquette and how to properly subscribe/unsubscribe from the list.
Of
> > course, this filter would have to not only catch "unsubscribe" requests,
> but
> > also "usubscribe" requests, and "unsucbribe" requests, and... well, you
> get
> > the idea.
> >
> > I think the real solution is getting the email vendors to have their
> > programs deal intelligently with the appropriate mail headers. And while
> > they are at it, it would be nice if they would make their programs
> > intelligent enough to not send "Out-of-Office" replies back to email
> lists.
> > I know I'm going to get about 5-10 such replies in response to this
post.
> >
> > Sorry about the off-topic post. I'll say no more about it.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Malcolm Dean [mailto:malcolmdean@earthlink.net]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:05 PM
> > > To: Igor Bazdyrev; 'Stasko, Sandra A'
> > > Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> > > Subject: Re: Removal
> > >
> > >
> > > Obviously, joining and leaving mail lists is far more clumsy
> > > than it should
> > > be. Everyone sees this kind of message frequently, on all
> > > kinds of lists.
> > >
> > > I have the impression that knowing how to join and leave is
> > > viewed by our
> > > nerd/administrators as a badge of courage. How else to
> > > explain how these
> > > arcane and backward interfaces appear to be immortal?
> > >
> > > Why doesn't some bright spark (perhaps someone you know) get
> > > to work on
> > > propagating a truly easy method of leaving a list?
> > >
> > > Do the planet a favor. Just think of the time we'd all save ... ;-)
> > >
> > > Malcolm Dean
> > > News Editor, Maximum Linux  (Get a free issue at www.maximumlinux.com)
> > > 1015 Gayley Avenue #1229
> > > Los Angeles CA 90024-3424
> > > 213-401-2197 fax
> > > malcolmdean@earthlink.net
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Igor Bazdyrev" <bigor@infolio.com>
> > > To: "'Stasko, Sandra A'" <sandra.a.stasko@lmco.com>
> > > Cc: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 8:05 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Removal
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > The way to unsubscribe explained at http://www.w3.org/Mail/
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Igor Bazdyrev
> > > > CTO, infolio, inc.
> > > > bigor@infolio.com
> > > >
> > > > PS: my apology for submitting response to the entire
> > > mailing list but I've
> > > > got few messages with the same "Removal" subject.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Stasko, Sandra A [mailto:sandra.a.stasko@lmco.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 2:04 PM
> > > > To: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> > > > Subject: Removal
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please remove me from this list.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
Received on Friday, 29 September 2000 01:49:22 GMT

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