W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > xml-dist-app@w3.org > October 2000

Re: Removal (Time for XMail?)

From: Kurt Cagle <cagle@olywa.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 06:59:57 -0700
Message-ID: <003801c02c79$0cd0f660$08cc01d0@aleria>
To: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
I do my share of Microsoft bashing (perhaps more than my fair share, to be
honest), but I'm going to play devil's advocate for a bit. MS is a fairly
large corporation, with about 35,000 employees worldwide. I've met very few
of the "evil, take over the world" type people out there - perhaps with the
exception of MS marketing - and a lot of people who are actually there
because they feel that they can make a difference there better than they can
anywhere else. They have done more for promoting XML as a standard for data
communications that just about any company that I can think of, and while I
have some concerns about their long term vision, I have to admit that
they've been right about implementations a surprising number of times.

The biggest problem that the company as a whole has is that its more than a
little schizophrenic. The corporate atmosphere there rewards those that are
the most competitive, often at the expense of projects and ideas that are
sound but that may not have as much of a profit motive. I don't think that
they are alone in this, however - it is a common malaise in most computer
software companies, and its perhaps an indicator that we need to rethink our
business models more than that Microsoft is evil.

The truth is that none of this stuff IS simple, as much as we'd like it to
be. We are in fact talking about creating a global network of incredible
complexity, one where companies become components in a fabric of millions of
nodes, and doing it in such a way as to harness fifty years worth of
accumulated bad software practices, obsolete databases, and legacy "this'll
do as a hack but I'll change it when I get the time" code.

Thus, while its easy to envision Bill Gates as this megalomaniac who's only
goal is to become even richer than he is today, the reality is that he's no
worse than the other CEOs in the industry who would gladly rape, pillage and
plunder if there was a profit to it, and he's better than a lot. It's also
worth noting that Gates has been quietly diversifying his own holdings for
years, and is now significantly vested in the biotech sphere. He understands
that software as it exists today is a largely transient phenomenon, and that
we are in fact writing ourselves out of a job.

Okay, it is unpleasant to be an apologist for Microsoft, because I do have a
number of significant qualms with both their business practices and their
technology. I just ask that people think about MS in the context of the
industry as a whole, and understand that they probably do as much good as
harm in this sector. If we're going to cast stones, make sure that we can do
so without those stones turning on us.

-- Kurt Cagle

----- Original Message -----
From: "William M. Rawls" <wrawls@redshift.com>
To: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 10:33 PM
Subject: RE: Removal (Time for XMail?)


> <Comment>Actually, standardization is what "we" all want. Only companies
> like <Name of large corporation trying to take over the world> desire
> complications such that only programmers can understand the "standards"
they
> advocate. We should be striving for simplicity rather than complexity.
This
> is the way.</Comment>
>
> <Sincerely>William M. Rawls</Sincerely>
>
> <PS>Keep XML pure</PS>

>
----- Original Message -----
From: "William M. Rawls" <wrawls@redshift.com>
To: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 10:33 PM
Subject: RE: Removal (Time for XMail?)


> <Comment>Actually, standardization is what "we" all want. Only companies
> like <Name of large corporation trying to take over the world> desire
> complications such that only programmers can understand the "standards"
they
> advocate. We should be striving for simplicity rather than complexity.
This
> is the way.</Comment>
>
> <Sincerely>William M. Rawls</Sincerely>
>
> <PS>Keep XML pure</PS>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org [mailto:xml-dist-app-request@w3.org]On
> Behalf Of Kurt Cagle
> Sent: 28 September, 2000 10:11
> To: Michael Brennan
> Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Removal (Time for XMail?)
>
>
> Michael,
>
> I'm not so sure that its altogether that far off topic. We have two
primary
> mechanisms for data transport across the web -- HTTP, of course, and SMTP.
> I've heard all kinds of interesting strategies for bringing XML to HTTP,
> from WebDAV on down, but it would seem to me that work on a similar
protocol
> for upgrading SMTP to an XML basis could provide some powerful dividends.
> None of this need be visible to the user -- the SMTP container would
> essentially be something like a SOAP envelope wrapped around the plain
text
> or HTML content. Among other things, it would make it easier to provide
> consistent mechanisms for handling mailing lists, including unsubscribe
> information, and it could even make it reasonable to handle such XMail
> through HTTP ports as readily as through SMTP ones. Just an addled
thought.
> Good luck on getting some standardization on mailing lists, though.
>
> -- Kurt Cagle
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Brennan" <Michael_Brennan@Allegis.com>
> To: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:16 PM
> Subject: RE: Removal
>
>
> > I don't mean to start a thread about this, but I felt like making a few
> > points.
> >
> > If you check the mail headers, you'll notice that there are headers that
> > tell how to unsubscribe and how to query for help about the list. Of
> course,
> > most user-friendly mail programs do not by default display these
headers.
> I
> > believe the intent is that email programs could use the headers
> > intelligently to provide menus or buttons right within the program for a
> > user to unsubscribe or query for help. It would be really nice to see
> > Microsoft and other vendors support this functionality in their programs
> to
> > make this easy. (I'm not trying to single out Microsoft, here, but since
> > they have about 80-90% of the email market, anything they do has a much
> > bigger impact than anyone else.) If vendors would jump on board with
this,
> I
> > think things would work much better. Almost every email list I subscribe
> to
> > are providing such headers and are doing so in a consistent manner.
> >
> > Some of the lists, instead, add standard footers to every message sent
to
> > list subscribers that includes info on how to unsubscribe. You'd think
> that
> > would reduce the "unsubscribe" requests to the list, but it doesn't.
I've
> > seen messages on such lists that have a one-line "unsubscribe" request
> > immediately followed by a standard footer that explains how to properly
> > unsubscribe (and in some such instances, the user actually followed up
the
> > initial request with additional ones). Some people are just plain
> clueless.
> >
> > Ideally, list server programs should be configured with filters that
> detect
> > one-line subscribe and unsubscribe instructions, that block the message
> from
> > the list and send a friendly message to the sender directing them to a
FAQ
> > on netiquette and how to properly subscribe/unsubscribe from the list.
Of
> > course, this filter would have to not only catch "unsubscribe" requests,
> but
> > also "usubscribe" requests, and "unsucbribe" requests, and... well, you
> get
> > the idea.
> >
> > I think the real solution is getting the email vendors to have their
> > programs deal intelligently with the appropriate mail headers. And while
> > they are at it, it would be nice if they would make their programs
> > intelligent enough to not send "Out-of-Office" replies back to email
> lists.
> > I know I'm going to get about 5-10 such replies in response to this
post.
> >
> > Sorry about the off-topic post. I'll say no more about it.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Malcolm Dean [mailto:malcolmdean@earthlink.net]
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:05 PM
> > > To: Igor Bazdyrev; 'Stasko, Sandra A'
> > > Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> > > Subject: Re: Removal
> > >
> > >
> > > Obviously, joining and leaving mail lists is far more clumsy
> > > than it should
> > > be. Everyone sees this kind of message frequently, on all
> > > kinds of lists.
> > >
> > > I have the impression that knowing how to join and leave is
> > > viewed by our
> > > nerd/administrators as a badge of courage. How else to
> > > explain how these
> > > arcane and backward interfaces appear to be immortal?
> > >
> > > Why doesn't some bright spark (perhaps someone you know) get
> > > to work on
> > > propagating a truly easy method of leaving a list?
> > >
> > > Do the planet a favor. Just think of the time we'd all save ... ;-)
> > >
> > > Malcolm Dean
> > > News Editor, Maximum Linux  (Get a free issue at www.maximumlinux.com)
> > > 1015 Gayley Avenue #1229
> > > Los Angeles CA 90024-3424
> > > 213-401-2197 fax
> > > malcolmdean@earthlink.net
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Igor Bazdyrev" <bigor@infolio.com>
> > > To: "'Stasko, Sandra A'" <sandra.a.stasko@lmco.com>
> > > Cc: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 8:05 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Removal
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > The way to unsubscribe explained at http://www.w3.org/Mail/
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Igor Bazdyrev
> > > > CTO, infolio, inc.
> > > > bigor@infolio.com
> > > >
> > > > PS: my apology for submitting response to the entire
> > > mailing list but I've
> > > > got few messages with the same "Removal" subject.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Stasko, Sandra A [mailto:sandra.a.stasko@lmco.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 2:04 PM
> > > > To: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> > > > Subject: Removal
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please remove me from this list.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
Received on Monday, 2 October 2000 10:02:51 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Monday, 7 December 2009 10:58:57 GMT