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RE: potential users of web services

From: Andrew Layman <andrewl@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:18:29 -0700
Message-ID: <C3729BBB6099B344834634EC67DE4AE103DA3D99@red-msg-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: <www-ws@w3.org>
Thanks.  I was just pushing on this point to emphasize the distinction
of  Web services from other, earlier technologies that base contracts on
programming-language APIs.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Martin [mailto:martin@AI.SRI.COM] 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 1:07 PM
To: Andrew Layman
Cc: Anne Thomas Manes; Timothy N. Jones; thomi@di.uoa.gr; www-ws@w3.org
Subject: Re: potential users of web services

Andrew -

Andrew Layman wrote:

> Whether a Web service is invoked using a programmatic API is
immaterial
> to its being a Web service.

Speaking for myself only, I don't think there's any disagreement about
this.  I responded positively to the phrase "programmatic API" not
because I
was thinking of any specific RPC mechanism, but because I took that
phrase
to mean that the service is set up so that software components
(programs)
can interact with it.  The service can be invoked (in some appropriately
loose sense of that word) by a program, and its results can be
used/processed/handled by a program.  If we want to go further than
that,
and say that the interaction is in terms of language-neutral and
platform-neutral messages, that's consistent with what I have in mind.

Regards,

David Martin

> It is much more important that the messages
> effecting the invocation have a definite, language-neutral and
> platform-neutral format.  That is, Web services are defined in terms
of
> their protocols, not the APIs used for invocation, which may vary from
> platform to platform or language to language.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Martin [mailto:martin@AI.SRI.COM]
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 11:38 AM
> To: Anne Thomas Manes
> Cc: Timothy N. Jones; thomi@di.uoa.gr; www-ws@w3.org
> Subject: Re: potential users of web services
>
> Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
>
> > IMHO, a web service is a component that is invoked using a
> programmatic API, ...
>
> There seems to be a consensus on the idea that a web service is
invoked
> using a programmatic API,
> and I certainly agree that's a central element of what we mean by "web
> service".
>
> But it's worth noting that there is are interesting issues to
consider,
> even with this relatively
> well-defined notion of programmatic API.  I'm referring to the idea
that
> a service can have both an
> offline component and an online component, and we need to consider the
> full range of variability
> here.
>
> Some services can take place predominantly online, with a minor
offline
> component -
>
>     For example, one could have an elaborate online buying process,
> including such
>     things as getting ratings on potential sellers, arranging
financing,
> etc., where the only
>     offline component might be shipping the item purchased.  One can
> also imagine
>     services that happen completely online, except that they require
> just a moment or
>     two of a human's attention to give final approval to the
> transaction.  And so forth.
>
> some can take place predominantly offline, with a minor online
component
> -
>
>     For example, one might order a pizza online.  In this case, of
> course, the pizza
>     preparation and delivery (and possibly even the payment, if you
pay
> cash)
>     take place offline.  Also, what about the case where one has a
> software
>     agent to locate a pizza restaurant that delivers, but then one
calls
> up that
>     restaurant and places the order by telephone?  Does that count as
a
> "web service",
>     given that it was found using a programmatic API?  (I suppose it
> depends on
>     whether this programmatic API is provided by the pizza restaurant
or
> by a
>     third party directory service, but I'm not sure.)
>
> and one can imagine a wide range of in-between values for this
> "online/offline ratio".
>
> Although I don't think it's really necessary to arrive at a precise
> definition of "web service",
> still, it's probably useful to think about which services on this
> online/offline spectrum should be
> regarded as "Web services".   Should it be any service with a
> programmatic API  for an online
> component (even if that component represents only a minor part of the
> service), or must the service
> take place completely online to be regarded as a "Web service", or
> should there be some sense in
> which the service is "invoked" online (not just "found" online), or
> what?  In our work on DAML-S, we
> are tending towards the view that includes the broadest range of
> services - but I can't claim that
> we have a clear-cut definition of this, or ever will have one :-).
>
> David Martin
> SRI International
>
> Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
>
> > IMHO, a web service is a component that is invoked using a
> programmatic API,
> > hence it is not a user-driven application. If a web service
determines
> that
> > it needs more input, then either it returns an error or it contains
> some
> > logic that allows it to obtain more input. It can obtain that input
by
> > initiating an interaction with a user (which sounds to me like it's
> still
> > service-driven, not user-driven), or it might queue a request up on
a
> > workflow process, or it might call some other service or program
that
> knows
> > how to obtain the input.
> >
> > I'm not saying that you can't build a UI-driven application with web
> > services. What I'm saying is that web services themselves aren't
> UI-driven.
> >
> > I believe that it's important to distinguish between a web service
and
> an
> > application that has been constructed using web services. Let me
> illustrate
> > with an analogy. A database is an example of a service. You
> communicate with
> > it using a programmatic API (SQL). The database isn't a UI
> application, but
> > you can certainly build UI applications that utilize the database
> service.
> >
> > Anne
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Timothy N. Jones [mailto:tim@crossweave.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 2:50 PM
> > > To: Anne Thomas Manes
> > > Cc: thomi@di.uoa.gr; www-ws@w3.org; www-ws-arch@w3.org
> > > Subject: RE: potential users of web services
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would have to object to the separation of UI and web service
> described
> > > below on the grounds that it appears incompatible with the notion
of
> > > interactive web services.  For example, it seems reasonable that
at
> some
> > > point along a web service call chain a service could dynamically
> determine
> > > that it needs additional information from the user to complete its
> task.
> > > Unless UIs are able to themselves be web services I think the WS
> > > architecture will not be able to support user-driven applications,
> which
> > > would be an unfortunate limitation.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Tim Jones
> > > CrossWeave, Inc.
> > >
> > > > Thomi,
> > > > Ask five people the definition of "web service" and you'll get
six
> > > answers.
> > > > I generally describe a web service as a service that
> > > communicates over the
> > > > web. A service is a component that exposes a programmatic
> interface. The
> > > > service interface must be described; and the service
> implementation must
> > > be
> > > > discoverable.
> > > > When you relate this abstract definition to current
> > > technologies, you can
> > > > implement a web service by creating a service that exposes a
SOAP
> > > interface,
> > > > which is described by WSDL, and which is registered in UDDI. But
I
> > > wouldn't
> > > > want to use current technologies to *define* the basic concept.
I
> also
> > > don't
> > > > think that it's essential to use any of these technologies to
> > > create a web
> > > > service. I can certainly create a web service using XML-RPC or
> > > RosettaNet
> > > or
> > > > a host of other technologies.
> > > > That said, I would concur that web services are intended to be
> > > consumed by
> > > > applications rather than humans. But keep in mind that a user
> > > interface is
> > > > an application. If I wanted to arrange food for 500 people for
two
> weeks
> > > in
> > > > Dubai, I would use a catering application, which in turn uses
> > > web services
> > > > to find caterers that can provide services in Dubai. The UI
> > > isn't the web
> > > > service. The UI uses web services to accomplish its work. Hence
an
> ASP
> > > page
> > > > or HTML form aren't web services, they are an interface to web
> services.
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Anne Thomas Manes
> > > > CTO, Systinet
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: www-ws-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-request@w3.org]On
> > > > > Behalf Of Thomi Pilioura
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 9:09 AM
> > > > > To: www-ws@w3.org
> > > > > Subject: potential users of web services
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm little confused about the notion of the term "web
services".
> > > > > When I'm reading papers related to UDDI,WSDL,SOAP they present
> > > > > web services
> > > > > as a new age of distributed computing and as such they are
only
> useful
> > > to
> > > > > developers (who are trying to build web applicattions) and not
> to the
> > > > > end-users. But when I'm reading papers related to DAML-S the
> idea I'm
> > > > > getting for web services is different. They are also useful to
> > > > > end users as
> > > > > it shown by DAML-S motivating scenarios:
> > > > >
> > > > > Web service discovery
> > > > > Find me a shipping service that transports goods to Dubai.
> > > > >
> > > > > Web service invocation
> > > > > Buy me 500 lbs. powdered milk from www.acmemoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Web service selection, composition and interoperation
> > > > > Arrange food for 500 people for 2 weeks in Dubai.
> > > > >
> > > > > Web service execution monitoring
> > > > > Has the powdered milk been ordered and paid for yet?
> > > > >
> > > > > There are also numerous papers that use the term service (and
> not "web
> > > > > service") and are talking about UDDI, WSDL and DAML-S. What's
> the
> > > > > difference
> > > > > between "web service" and "service" if both of them work over
> > > > > Internet? For
> > > > > example, a search engine (such as google) is a service, but
when
> it is
> > > > > described in WSDL, published in UDDI and can be invoked using
> > > > > SOAP becomes a
> > > > > web service? Ia a asp or an HTML form a service or a web
> service?
> > > > >
> > > > > In summary which are the potential users of web services (web
> service
> > > > > providers, developers, end-users)?
> > > > >
> > > > > could you please shed some light on this?
> > > > > regards
> > > > > Thomi Pilioura
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
Received on Monday, 8 April 2002 19:19:01 GMT

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