W3C

WS Description WG telcon

15 Sep 2005

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present:
Charlton Baretto, Adobe Systems
Rebecca Bergersen, IONA Technologies
Allen Brookes, Rogue Wave Software
Roberto Chinnici, Sun Microsystems
Glen Daniels, Sonic Software
Paul Downey, British Telecommunications
Youenn Fablet, Canon
Hugo Haas, W3C
Tom Jordahl, Macromedia
Jacek Kopecky, DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universitšt Innsbruck, Austria
Amelia Lewis, TIBCO
Jean-Jacques Moreau, Canon
David Orchard, BEA Systems
Bijan Parsia, University of Maryland MIND Lab
Tony Rogers, Computer Associates
Arthur Ryman, IBM
Asir Vedamuthu, Microsoft
Umit Yalcinalp, SAP
Regrets
Kevin Canyang Liu, SAP
Chair
Jonathan Marsh
Scribe
GlenD

Contents


<scribe> Scribe: GlenD

Approval of minutes

APPROVED

Action Items

Review of Action items [.1].

PENDING†† 2005-06-16: Amy to provide test cases for MEPs not described
†††††††††††††††† †††††in Part 2, due 2005-07. 
PENDING†† 2005-07-20: DOrchard to respond to commenter on keeping
††††††††††††††††††††† mustUnderstand

DOrchard to respond to commenter on keeping mustUnderstand - PENDING

PENDING†† 2005-07-21: pauld to write a proposal for a working group
††††††††††††††††††††† report for requirements for schema evolution
††††††††††††††††††††† following closure of LC124

Hugo: talked to Michael S.McQ re: ignoreUnknowns, and I may have finished your AI :)

DONE [.3] 2005-09-01: Marsh to propose some text to address LC305 in
††††††††††††††††††††† terms suitable for both WS-A and WS-D,
††††††††††††††††††††† due 2005-09-08. 
PENDING   2005-09-08: Kevin Liu to propose text for talking about IRIs 
                      in primer (from Hugo's suggestion), due 
                      2005-09-22. 
DONE [.4] 2005-09-08: Marsh to write up LC315 proposal (simple content, 
                      no type restriction), due 2005-09-15.
DONE [.5] 2005-09-08: Asir to put such an LC321 proposal together
                      (making {soap mep} optional property, specify
                      the error for SOAP 1.2 default binding rules), 
                      due 2005-09-15.

Current Editorial Action Items
?†††††††† 2005-07-21: Arthur to add stable identifiers for each
††††††††††††††††††††† assertion, due 2005-09-26.

Note: Editorial AIs associated with LC issues recorded at [.2].

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/lc-issues/actions_owner.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Sep/0010.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Sep/0008.html
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Sep/0011.html

Administrivia

discussion of f2f

Marsh: no call during F2F - short call next week

Logistics for November F2F are up, more on the way re: transportation

<pauld> it's been moved fromTokyo to Yokohama ..

<asir> if you are looking for japanese rail passes, read http://www.nta.co.jp/english/rail/ - you have to buy this before you arrive in Japan

<Marsh> ACTION: Marsh to check with Bob on closing date for hotel registration. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01]

Z-notation in Part 2.

Marsh: Lack of formal notation for part 2 may have contributed to # of issues... maybe more Zed is the answer?

Hugo: Many more comments on part 2 than part 1 - spent a lot of time on part 1 partly due to Z-notation (finding issues, etc). Might help part 2.

Marsh: Any volunteers for moving this forward?

Arthur: will work with anyone to help with this

(lots of interest, but no cycles)

Marsh: when can we do this? Would be good to get it done ASAP, esp if it's going to raise issues...

Arthur: I'll take a crack at it, but no guarantees

(discussion of a Z-notation session at the F2F)

<pauld> a Z tutorial session / workshop would be cool!

Marsh: Should we just do the bindings?

Arthur: MEPs too, perhaps even abstract description of MEP

Arthur describes Z authoring process (pretty easy with right tools)

<Arthur> yes, there is a good zed url

<Arthur> google zed mike spivey

<Arthur> http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/~mike/zrm/

<Arthur> the zrm site has a pdf of the Z Reference Manual and the fuzz type checker

<Arthur> To learn Zed, there is a short tutorial in http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/~mike/zrm/zrm.pdf

<Arthur> you can download the fuzz type checker from http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/~mike/fuzz/

Issue LC301: {soap action} granularity

No response from Addr WG yet

Issue LC303: Mention IRIs in the primer

Deferred

Issue LC304: Definition of a IANA media type token

Hugo: Value of this required property must be an IANA media type token, but we don't say what that is

Hugo: only other use of that phrase is the media types note. We should define it...

Marsh: Any objections to adopting Hugo's proposal? (http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/lc-issues/#LC304)

(discussion of whether we need parameters)

Umit: No mention of "token" in the media types doc currently...

Hugo: originally just wanted to allow quality parameter, then wondered why restrict ourselves to just one?

Tom: Why allow parameters? What do they mean?

Marsh: Does this appear in the HTTP envelope, and allow params there if so?

Tom: Example of input serialization? "text/xml"?

Hugo: Wondering if we're envisioning different kinds of XML serialization, and if so how would they get declared?
... Maybe we should say serialization corresponds to MIME type for HTTP response? Not sure about allowing parameters or not...

Marsh: Sounds like the peanut gallery likes keeping things simple (no params), but if Hugo comes back with a good reason would they be acceptable?

Tom: We should say what a token is, but not do more stuff (params). Keep it simple.

<scribe> ACTION: Hugo to write revised proposal with clear direction on params (LC304) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03]

Issue LC305: Notational conventions

Marsh's proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Sep/0010.html

Marsh: Our usage is quite consistent with WSA already. We do illustrate extensions when needed, even though we don't show all extensibility points.

<uyalcina> it is good enough.

<RebeccaB> ship it!

<asir> Looks good

Marsh: mixed content is a single case where we use italicized text, don't need to add that to the general description
... Any objections to proposal?

(no objections)

RESOLVED to accept Jonathan's proposal for LC305

<Marsh> ACTION: Marsh to ask WS-A for the changes re LC305 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action04]

Issue LC315: HTTP binding: HTTP Header component's {element} property declaration

Marsh's proposal - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Sep/0008.html

+1 to simple content

Marsh: could toss out structure for complex/mixed content

<JacekK> +1 to simple content

<charlton> +1 to simple content

(discussion of definition of simple type / simple content)

<Marsh> Proposal: "The element information item MUST be declared as a simple type or having simple content."

Umit: concerned about attributes - why shouldn't we worry about them?

Marsh: good to be able to add things like xml:id, but that doesn't change the actual value of the element...

Umit: Can we say attrs have no bearing here like we do with RPC method signatures?
... If it's already ignored, that's cool

(discussion of the origin of the text (ADD feature))

Marsh: so what would we do with attributes if trying to turn an element into an HTTP header?

<charlton> got to nash for now - see you next week and at the F2F

Roberto: easy if we allow existing element decls and drop the attributes, although of course writing elements for this purpose wouldn't include them

Asir doubts anyone is going to use this feature

(scribe agrees)

Marsh: two proposals. Allow more types, and Hugo's "strict" proposal, which must be simple type (no attrs, no complex types)

PROPOSAL: elements must be simple types.

Jacek: Change name of property from element to type?

Marsh: symmetrical with soap:header, which has element...

Arthur: yes, but SOAP *is* XML, HTTP ain't

Marsh: Reason for structure that maps to both?

Glen: Part of what DaveO wanted from ADD - abstract sideband application data?

(discussion of encoding/escaping)

Marsh: Do we really want arbitrary data or are simple types OK?

DaveO: content-location and WebDAV depth headers are interesting... maybe not arbitrary XML...

Marsh: use type instead of element?

Jacek/Glen: Then how do you name it?

Someone: use name of type?

Arthur: why not just an attribute name=""?

Jacek: we were already forcing people to make elements, now we can have them make types
... name="foo" type="simpleType" seems good

Marsh: seems like a new proposal would be good at this point...

(discussion of header serialization, multiple lines, escaping...)

Marsh: Need a volunteer to write this up. Just point to simpleType, not an element - anything else is an error. Rename element property to type (or simpleType), and also introduce name property.

Hugo: Why not just use element with simple type restriction?
... doesn't this make the mechanisms different?

<scribe> ACTION: Jacek to look into escaping/serialization issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action05]

<Marsh> ACTION: Hugo to propose simpleType/header name for LC315. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action06]

Issue LC318: SOAP and HTTP bindings: Editorial reorganization for defaultstype

(Hugo describes issue)

Asir: specifying defaults is at the markup level. Default binding rules is more about interpreting the component model than constructing it. That's the difference.

Hugo: ok to define default for method in a different way than the query param or transfer coding?

Marsh: Strong opinions?

DaveO: we should be consistent, agree w/Hugo

Asir: LC324 captures this

Hugo: 6.10 is a better example than 6.6

PROPOSAL: Reorg as necessary using 6.10 as a model

Two kinds of defaults - a) syntactic (default attrs), which is single value per property, and b) algorithms for setting a value of a property based on other conditions (MEP in use, etc)

We are specifically looking at (a)

no objections to proposal

<scribe> ACTION: Hugo to reorg as necessary using 6.10 as a model (LC318) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action07]

ADJOURN

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Hugo to propose simpleType/header name for LC315. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Hugo to reorg as necessary using 6.10 as a model (LC318) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Hugo to write revised proposal with clear direction on params (LC304) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Jacek to look into escaping/serialization issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Marsh to ask WS-A for the changes re LC305 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Marsh to check with Bob on closing date for hotel registration. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/15-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2005/09/15 16:30:08 $