Web Services Description WG

17 Feb 2005


David Booth, W3C
Allen Brookes, Rogue Wave Software
Roberto Chinnici, Sun Microsystems
Glen Daniels, Sonic Software
Paul Downey, British Telecommunications
Youenn Fablet, Canon
Hugo Haas, W3C
Anish Karmarkar, Oracle
Amelia Lewis, TIBCO
Kevin Canyang Liu, SAP
Jacek Kopecky, Leopold Franzens Universitat Innsbruck
Jonathan Marsh, Chair/Microsoft
Jeff Mischkinsky, Oracle
Jean-Jacques Moreau, Canon
David Orchard, BEA Systems
Bijan Parsia, University of Maryland MIND Lab
Tony Rogers, Computer Associates
Adi Sakala, IONA Technologies
Asir Vedamuthu, webMethods
Umit Yalcinalp, SAP
Prasad Yendluri, webMethods, Inc.
Dale Moberg, Cyclone Commerce
Arthur Ryman, IBM
Sherman Gong, Macromedia




<scribe> scribe: JacekK

minutes from last week approved

action items

Review of Action items [.1].  Editorial actions [.2].

?         2004-04-01: Marsh will get schema tf going.
?         2004-09-02: Bijan to create stylesheet to generate a
                      table of components and properties.
?         2004-09-16: Editors to move App C to RDF Mapping spec, 
                      except the frag-id which will move 
                      within media-type reg appendix.
?         2004-09-16: Editors to fix paragraph 6-9 of section 
                      2.1.1 moved into 2.1.2
                      which talks about the syntax.
?         2004-10-14: Editors to add a statement like: 
                      The Style property may constrain both 
                      input and output, however a particular 
                      style may constrain in only one 
                      direction. In Section of Part 1.
                      (subsumed by LC21 resolution?) 
?         2004-11-09: DaveO to work on text for option 
                      3 (redefining conformance in terms 
                      of building the component model) 
?         2004-11-09: DaveO will recast the @compatibleWith 
                      proposal using an extension namespace. 
?         2004-11-10: Sanjiva to write the rationale for 
                      rejecting LC75a
?         2004-11-10: Glen will post an e-mail describing 
                      the compromise proposal on formal objections.
?         2004-11-10: Editor remove ambiguity if it exists
?         2004-11-10: Sanjiva will write up this proposal 
                      and email it to the list as a response 
                      to the objection.
?         2004-11-11: Anish to propose additions to the 
                      test suite for the purpose of 
                      interoperability testing.
?         2004-11-11: Editors of part 2 and 3 to add text 
                      about WSDLMEP and SOAP mep mapping that 
                      points to section 2.3 of part 3 (LC48b) 
?         2004-11-18: Mini-task force to propose one or two 
                      proposals for the group for LC5f.
?         2004-12-03: Glen and Asir to help craft the specfic text 
                      for the editors.
?         2004-12-03: Glen to send example on feature stuff for primer
?         2004-12-16: Part 3 Editors to update the HTTP binding with 
                      one of the above versions of text
?         2005-01-06: MTD Editors to add note saying content-type
                      is not sufficient, information to be 
                      provided via other mechanism, for 
                      example xsi:type"
?         2005-01-06: MTD editors implement proposal 2 for issue 
?         2005-01-06: Umit? to respond to Larry, "not dynamic, 
                      other solutions equally bad, not 
                      recommendation track, if problems
                      happy to consider those"
?         2005-01-13: Editors of media type doc to 
                      implement issue 261 resolution
?         2005-01-13: Editors of media type doc to 
                      implement issue 262 resolution
?         2005-01-13: Editors of media type doc to 
                      implement 262 and 273
?         2005-01-13: Editors of media type doc to 
                      incorporate the text at 2004Dec/0022.html
?         2005-01-13: Editors of media type doc to 
                      resolve 275 editorially 
?         2005-01-13: Umit to reply to issuer 270
?         2005-01-13: Umit to respond to Ian Hickson 
                      about issue 271
?         2005-01-19: Part 1 Editors to call out the difference 
                      between WSDL 1.1 and 2.0 in respect to 
                      single interface per service, and 
                      indicate alternatives
?         2005-01-19: Part 1 Editors to rewrite ONMR as Best practice.
DONE [.4] 2005-01-19: Hugo to write a proposal for adding 
                      an optional Action attribute in line 
                      with WS Addressing (LC84b)
?         2005-01-19: Arthur and Asir to look for more edge cases 
                      ref LC20 and LC27.
?         2005-01-19: Part 1 Editors to add the intersection 
                      rule for f&p composition.
?         2005-01-20: Asir to think about mU and possibly 
                      propose some clarification text
?         2005-01-20: Arthur to come up with primer text 
                      to show fault reuse and fault code.
DONE      2005-02-03: Marsh make Jan 0008 issue LC103 and close it.
?         2005-02-03: Members who have recently raised issues 
                      should check that these were reflected in 
                      the issues list.
DONE [.6] 2005-02-03: Marsh to find schemaLocation supporting 
                      material for Arthur.
DONE      2005-02-03: Marsh to add RDF mapping to agenda, try 
                      to recruit Jacek.
?         2005-02-03: Asir to work with primer eds on SOAP 1.1
?         2005-02-03: Part 1 editors to incorporate text from 
                      Jan/0026 and Feb/0006.
DONE [.3] 2005-02-10: Arthur to add non-normative ref to WS-Addr
DONE [.5] 2005-02-10: Asir to say which component names need discussion

  Friendly amendment to original proposal.
  WG agrees to classify as editorial.

?         2005-02-10: DBooth to mail Arthur change to wording on media 
                      type registration, Arthur to incorporate.
?         2005-02-10: JMarsh to ask Henry to respond about media type 
                      issues with examples
DONE      2005-02-10: Marsh to consider a cutoff for LC issues.

  Doesn't make sense with another LC release.

DONE      2005-02-10: Marsh to move 106 up on the agenda.
DONE      2005-02-10: Marsh to schedule discussion of LC70 along 
                      with LC5f.

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/4/lc-issues/actions.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2005Feb/0022.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Feb/0035.html
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Feb/0041.html
[.6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Feb/0048.html

asir: my action done, friendly amendment to make the entire issue editorial

<asir> my amendment e-mail is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Feb/0041.html


<Marsh> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/4/lc-issues/issues.html#LC107

<Marsh> s me

Marsh: does anybody object to treating LC107 as editorial?

<scribe> ACTION: Marsh to reclasify LC107 as editorial and add reference to Asir's amendment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action01]

Marsh: cut-off for LC dismissed as we'll need a new LC anyway

jjm: I added table explaining how import and include actually work

<scribe> ACTION: Asir to review table on how import and include actually work (added by JJM) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action02]

ACTION 2=Asir to review table on how import and include actually work (added by JJM)


Marsh: don't have date for April, but I'm looking at the week of 18th
... that would be a F2F joined with WS-Addressing, not co-hosted but close, same week
... Sunnyvale and Mountain View in Silicon valley
... next meeting probably May 30th, with Desc end of the week

RDF mapping

Marsh: checking on status of progress, expectation of progress, scope of the draft

asir: can this work be done after WSDL 2?

Marsh: yes, alternatively I can report that this deliverable cannot be done at all

<dbooth> Jacek: I have interest in working on this. I've spent some time on this. Read draft ontology; probably will suggest changes. If only the ontology will be the content of the first public WD, then we might have it after the Tech Plenary.

<scribe> ACTION: jacekk to get RDF mapping work ongoing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action03]

bijan: was planning to do something concrete by next week, sending it to Jacek

Marsh: we also have a section on RDF mapping in the primer

dbooth: the intent was that this would be an awareness item in the primer, hi-level introduction about what the mapping is about

<scribe> ACTION: bijan and JacekK to supply text for primer section on RDF mapping [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action04]

Marsh: security considerations section continues to be marked as "at risk"

media-type description

Marsh: if we could have all editorial work done by the f2f, we'd only have the single issue

<Marsh> ACTION: Umit and Anish to complete editorial work on media type description before ftf [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action05]

Umit: the media type document may actually precede the WSDL document

Marsh: we also need it for the MTOM recommendations

LC issues

Marsh: 107 reclasified as editorial
... some small issues on HTTP don't seem to be totally editorial
... objections to having 108, 109 reclasified as editorial?
... no objections, LC108 and LC109 are now editorial

media-type registration

Marsh: anything new?


component model changes

Marsh: Arthur is not here today, anybody objects to deferring this item until we have Arthur?
... no objections


skipped because Umit doesn't have enough time on the call


Marsh: LC70 may be a precursor to LC5f, therefore now on the agenda

<dbooth> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/4/lc-issues/issues.html#LC70

asir: part 1 allows multiple schema languages, which we have concerns about
... 1) XML Schema is required, so decoupling from XML Schema is already hit
... 2) in the appendix on DTD and RelaxNG we seem to be inventing things to allow these languages; e.g. the DTD part puts a DTD inside a namespace
... for RelaxNG we redefine some of their semantics
... 3) it seems that mixed schema languages are allowed but it's not clear what happens when multiple languages are used

Marsh: what do you mean - simultaneous description of one type or just mixing?

asir: both
... the question is - we don't know how they all come together
... 4) message reference has element attribute referring to element declaration but this doesn't indicate what schema language is in use
... so overloading of "element" AII is not fully clear
... two proposals:
... a) put XML Schema dependence out of part 1, indicate somehow what schema language is used
... b) drop RelaxNG and DTD from the spec, stay coupled to XML Schema
... additionally, if we have status quo or go with proposal a, we have to demonstrate implementations of use of other schema languages
... that's LC70

dbooth: regarding LC5f, option b is to treat xs:schema as an extension with implied wsdl:required="true"; does this route eliminate your concerns?

asir: seems like only concern 1 would go away
... we should talk about mixing within a class of extension - schema languages

alewis: I disagree with most of this
... the appendices are non-normative, intended as examples, may be insufficient and that would have to be addressed, but not by dropping them
... we invent mechanisms in other places, it's inevitable, that's not a flaw
... no schema language suggests how it's going to be embedded or imported in other systems
... we may need clarifications, we may not need to suggest what happens with multiple schema languages used
... I don't see why anybody would actually use multiple schema langauges with conflicts; if they use a different type system, they probably don't want to use XML Schema at all

Roberto: agree 100% with amy

<Marsh> invention vs. illustration?

Roberto: going over the concerns - 1) is handled in LC5f, 2) we are inventing stuff in non-normative appendices, that's fine, provides an example

<pauld> is anyone working on an RDF Schema or OWL alternative to Schema in WSDL 2.0? Would such a thing make sense?

Roberto: 3) is a rathole
... if multiple type systems are understood, all components end up together as element declarations
... don't see the issues

asir: non-normative appendix of part 1 has a certain status, an example can go to the primer

Roberto: disagree it has any certain status

asir: one possibility to avoid the rat hole is just allowing one schema system in one description
... if schema systems are pluggable, XML Schema should be optional

alewis: no

<Zakim> JacekK, you wanted to suggest wsdxs:element, wsdldtd:element, wsdlrng:element and to suggest wsdxs:element, wsdldtd:element, wsdlrng:element; SOAP DM schema langauge

<dbooth> JacekK: 1. Asir wants an indication of what schema language is in use. It may seem weird that DTD and schema and RelaxNG might end up in the same bag, but ontology elements would not. Therefore maybe we could use different AIIs for different schema languages: One for XML Schema, one for RelaxNG, one for DTD.

<dbooth> ... 2. We have examples of equivalence to XML Schema. Maybe they could be referenced. 3. We could include OWL or SOAP Data Model Schema Language as an example of a situation where a totally different type system is used.

dorchard: agree with amy
... we do have the issue of potential conflicts; but dropping the support for other schema languages would be too drastic
... if other schema languages are in fact used, people will invent ways to do that and those can be mentioned in our errata or later publications
... we aren't losing anything if nobody uses this extensibility point, but if we limit it too much, we might lose out on a lot of innovation

<anish> q to ask if this can be a CR criterion

bijan: in favor of leaving the support in
... can we factor out the appendices?

Marsh: we'll try to segment the discussion down

<Zakim> alewis, you wanted to speak to issues of multiple definitions

<asir> i like bijan's proposal

alewis: reuse of the "element" AII is a (mis)feature of the appendices specifically, not mandated or forbidden by the extensibility mechanism
... we might have the various AIIs
... then our current element AII would be restricted solely to XML Schema
... we could rule out the same types or elements being described by multiple schema languages; but this seems to be getting us into problems
... ... of a processor being able to recognize such situations, but not knowing one of the languages used
... we might suggest a best practice, but not a robust way of detecting the problem

asir: point of information: XML Schema WG also talks about mixing schema languages

<asir> that issue is at http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/4/lc-issues/issues.html#LC63

<dbooth> Jacek: Maybe if different AIIs were used, then we could limit to only one on each component.

JacekK: if we used the different AIIs, we could mandate the use of a single one on a message reference

alewis: we cannot have a MUST there, not testable

anish: what's the status of non-normative appendix and the normative extension for schema languages? do we need two impls of RelaxNG in CR?

alewis: not for a non-normative appendix

<asir> inventive, illustrative, speculative ..

Marsh: looks like disagreement on the status of a non-normative appendix of the core spec or a separate note or a section in the primer...
... seem to have same official status but give different perceptions
... straw-poll

bijan: I thought a note had easier chance of being a foundation for further work
... we could recommend to W3C that it give more work on the note but not on the other options

Marsh: I believe it would have the same effect

asir: I'd like to see a separate note

<Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say But prohibiting the combination of schema languages would prohibit the use of a new schema language that is a superset of XML Schema.

dbooth: the appendix has two different kinds of things - the beginning promises examples and the rest contains MUSTs, that seems to be in discord for an appendix, likely to cause confusion
... so anywhere but the appendices would be better

pauld: surprised to put this "work in progress" in part 1 appendix, better in primer or separately

alewis: don't understand dbooth's criticism - it says "non-normative", if you're doing it, these are the requirements
... I don't see a way of removing the potential confusion

dbooth: what you described is more like optional, not non-normative which can fully be ignored

<Roberto> +1 to Amy

dbooth: more disagreement on the status of non-normativeness

Marsh: perhaps a straw-poll is in order
... straw-poll

<Marsh> Option 0: status quo

<Marsh> Option 1: move to primer

<Marsh> Option 2: publish as note

<Marsh> Option 3: remove

<Marsh> Option 4: reword

jeffM: explained non-normative as an example, not something that can be conformed to

Marsh: straw-poll with multiple choice

dbooth: 1,2,4

Allen: 4

Roberto: 0, 2

pauld: 1,2

youenn: 2

hugo: 2

sherman: abstain

anish: 0

JacekK: 2,4

alewis: 0,3

KevinL: 1,4

jeff: 0

jjm: 2

dorchard: 0

bijan: 2

TonyR: 2,4

adi: 0

asir: 2,3

Marsh (MS hat on): 2,4

Marsh: option 0 has 6 votes

prasad: 1,2,4

Marsh: option 1 has 4 votes
... option 2 has 12 votes
... option 3 has 2 votes
... option 4 has 7 votes

<bijan> The bijan option!

<asir> thanks bijan

Marsh: separate note seems to be preferred
... no objections to not discussing removal of the section
... option 4 is like option 0, making it clearer that this is illustrative rather than optional
... are people who like 0 also comfortable with 4?

anish: me yes

Marsh: option 4 removes ambiguity between non-normative and MUST
... more discussion of what "reword" means

<asir> yeh, illustrative and speculative

<bijan> This has to be the single most complex voting procedure/actual vote for, really, what is a minor issue!

Marsh: let's take this back to mailing list

<scribe> ACTION: Marsh to send out a poll today, allowing clarification of options by EOB tomorrow, poll next week before the call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action06]

<pauld> i've been using this as a reference model for an ircbot: http://stv.sourceforge.net/

Marsh: let's talk about the "element" AII being ambiguous regarding what languages defines an element
... maybe we can have multiple attributes for different schema languages
... this would also make it clear in the case when there are duplicates between the schema languages

<Zakim> Roberto, you wanted to say something on this topic

JacekK: this would also help with incorrectly calling RelaxNG's element pattern as element declaration

Roberto: I'm for keeping the only AII the way it is, when we designed it we knew what was expected
... we currently point to something that describes name, namespace name and content of an EII in infoset

Marsh: this imples multiples must be equivalent?

Roberto: we have a set of element declarations isomorphic to XML Schema

asir: we proposed leaving the element AII as it is but adding a selector attribute

JacekK: don't like the selector attribute because it may add redundancy in the case of totally different schema languages (like OWL)

<KevinL> If I remember right,a proposal was made by BEA to make the @element useable for other languages, but the group rejected that proposal and insisted the @element can only used to refer to XSD GED, other language has to define its own extensions. anybody remeber that?

Marsh: any more support for this change?

<alewis> KevinL, I recall exactly the reverse, that the proposal to forbid reuse was rejected.

Marsh: lack of response taken as lean towards status quo

meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Asir to review table on how import and include actually work (added by JJM) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: bijan and JacekK to supply text for primer section on RDF mapping [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Marsh to reclasify LC107 as editorial and add reference to Asir's amendment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Marsh to send out a poll today, allowing clarification of options by EOB tomorrow, poll next week before the call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Umit and Anish to complete editorial work on media type description before ftf [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action05]
[PENDING] ACTION: jacekk to get RDF mapping work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/17-ws-desc-minutes#action03]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.111 (CVS log)
$Date: 2005/02/17 17:53:41 $