WSDL Telcon
13 May 2004

See also: IRC log


 Erik Ackerman          Lexmark
 David Booth            W3C
 Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
 Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
 Ugo Corda              SeeBeyond
 Glen Daniels           Sonic Software
 Paul Downey            British Telecommunications
 Youenn Fablet          Canon
 Hugo Haas              W3C
 Hao He                 Thomson
 Tom Jordahl            Macromedia
 Amelia Lewis           TIBCO
 Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
 Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
 Josephine Micallef     Telcordia/SAIC 
 Jeff Mischkinsky       Oracle
 Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
 Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
 David Orchard          BEA Systems
 Bijan Parsia           University of Maryland MIND Lab
 Arthur Ryman           IBM
 Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
 William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard
 Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
 Umit Yalcinalp         Oracle
 Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc.



2. Approval of minutes

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: - May 6th [.1]


3. Review of Action item [.1].

? 2004-01-28: Philippe and JMarsh will look at the ip

scribe: test suite.

<scribe> PENDING

<scribe> DONE [.2] 2004-02-12: DaveO to produce a refined proposal for

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: HTTP binding addressing the concerns of
...that object to leaving replyTo info out

? 2004-04-01: Marsh will get schema tf going.

<scribe> PENDING

<scribe> DONE [.3] 2004-04-29: Arthur to write up concerns about XML 1

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: implications on WSDL 2.0 for potential
...forwarding to XML WG.

? 2004-04-29: Umit to work with Anish to create a wor

scribe: draft on media types ready for our May
...meeting in NYC.

<scribe> PENDING

? 2004-04-29: Part 1 editors to adopt Jacek's "purpos

scribe: binding" text, without "interchangeable
...endpoints, and using "confidentiality"
...similar) instead of TLS.

<scribe> PENDING

? 2004-05-06: JJM to incorporate this proposal (SOAP

scribe: Binding) after removing parts that are
...to media type and intermediary

<scribe> PENDING, partially done

<scribe> DONE 2004-05-06: Marsh to draft David O or Hugo to write

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: proposal for describing the requirement
...capabilities bucket of http features

? 2004-05-06: Part 3 editors to incorporate Sanjiva's

scribe: proposal.

<scribe> DONE

? 2004-04-29: Umit to work with Anish to create a wor

scribe: draft on media types ready for our May
...meeting in NYC.

<scribe> DONE (Umit arrived and updated us)

4. Administrivia

Jonathan: Will try to get draft agenda out EOD Friday

Proposed testing meeting Thursday afternoon in NYC for those

Umit: What's up with MTOM/XOP?

Jonathan: We should have some discussion about that at the F2
...Goal was to finish all issues - not too likely at t

Kevin: Phone access?

Sanjiva: Should be phone, but not sure of quality...
...c. Review of I18N WS Task Force documents [.6]

[.6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/

5. Task Force Status.

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: a. Media type description
...- Draft of first WD for WG approval by May FTF.

Jonathan: Would be good to get consensus on publishing the dr

6. New Issues. Issues list [.1].

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: - Track operation safety (TAG) [.2]

Opening new issue

scribe: - Normative dependence on XML Schema 1.0 precludes XML 1.1
...- Can a WSDL 2.0 XML 1.1 document contain (or reference), a
...- Is it valid for a XML 1.1 document to import or include a

Add new issues

7. Issue 54: Allow binding to any HTTP method [.1]


Hugo: (summarizes proposal)

Jonathan: Big question is do we want extensibility at the me

David: Wanted to see concrete proposal before going ahead.

Jonathan: Issues with having a QName as opposed to an HTTP-sp

Arthur: Why not just a string?

Jonathan: Name collisions, IBM-foo vs. Microsoft-foo

Arthur: Arent these HTTP verbs? GET, POST, etc?

Hugo: This came from discussion of using HTTP method as metho
...This means you need to specify a bunch of things, which

<pauld> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/0042.h

Sanjiva: Clarify what this proposal is about?

Jonathan: Status quo == a string for method, with various oth

Sanjiva: For common usage, the HTTP method might be variable,
...Capture extensibility in
...HTTP methods by using a String

Arthur: Combining how you're serializing with the method seem

DavidO: Maybe we should change "method" to "method-and-relate

Paul: On the wire, both IBM:BUY and MS:BUY would be the same.

DavidO: Tooling would know that particular serializations, et

Umit: There's a distinction between method and the other stuf

JeffM: Does this lead to everyone defining QNames for every c

DavidO: Basic HTTP should only have a few. Trying to provide

JeffM: How does this optimize for the simple case, do we spec

DavidO: For basic HTTP, yes

JeffM: Why not F&P, by the way?

Hugo: Table 3.1 is modelled on the XForms submission table, a

<umit> +1 to Arthur

Arthur: Why not just have attributes for basic stuff like me

<sanjiva> I'm confused as to why we don't introduce http:serialization

<Arthur> +1 to Sanjiva

DavidO: F&P vs. WSDL extensibility is a separate issue

<Arthur> +1

<Arthur> +q

DavidO: We have use cases for this stuff, but they aren't gre

<umit> +1 to Marsh :-)

<sanjiva> +1 too!

Jonathan: Why isn't it better to enable extensibility for eac

DavidO: Worried about a more-complex-looking proposal...

Arthur: QName makes spec harder to read (as opposed to "GET",
...Doesn't scale if you need new QName for every combo

DavidO: Do we have a "full potato" proposal?

Hugo: Had one, but it looked overly complicated...

scribe note - "full potato" == allow setting all properties i

DavidO: Can the group see it?

Jonathan: Would no extensibility for method be OK?

Arthur: We clearly have a requirement from somewhere (WEBDAV)

Jonathan: Isn't strictly a requirement yet...

<Zakim> sanjiva, you wanted to make a proposal

Arthur: Why exclude WEBDAV folks, though

<pauld> and Atom uses PUT and DELETE ...

Sanjiva: Change method name to string, values are same as HTT
...Then introduce properties as needed

Jonathan: Yes, you mean the "full potato"
...Big question is do we want a full-featured HTTP bin

<sanjiva> In my mind, doing a full featured HTTP binding begs for prof

DavidO: Want to make this real, and will peel however many po

Arthur: Simple case shouldn't be complicated.

Jonathan: If you say "PUT" that should default other properti

<sanjiva> I'm against defaulting serialization format - just make it a

Hugo: Full potato with clever defaulting is what we should ex

Jonathan: Sounds like...

8. HTTP [optimization] properties [.1]:

...+ HTTP Version
...+ Content coding
...+ Transfer Codings (Chunked encoding)
...+ Caching (Vary, etc.)
...+ Content Negotiation ?

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/

[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/

[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/

DavidO: Certain common cases will cause Content coding not to

(darn return key)

DavidO: ...used
...Two buckets - required and extensions. Transfer codi

Jonathan: Clear that some of these things are needed, and the
...Need to figure out which of these things goes in, s
...Do we need these in the core spec? (back to questio

DavidO: Getting most of the HTTP functionality seems pretty s

Jonathan: Looks like adding 10-15 attributes, which in most c

Glen: If people want to do these things, we should supply the

Jonathan: How many folks are psyched about implementing this?

Arthur: Setting all this stuff up doesn't have a lot of benef
...It's really a small optimization (saving round trips)

<dbooth> GlenD: If you're a cell phone, an additional round trip is a bi

Paul: +1 to Glen, mobile interactions are expensive, so optim
...Also, optimization in general (GZIP available, etc) is

DavidO: BEA has been deploying GET and POST with tweakable se
...You need to know what uname/pw to use, for instance,

<pauld> how to describe a service is protected by BA is something i'm

Sanjiva: May be properties which affect the programming model
...Rest as hints/optimizations are OK

Paul: Can we reuse this stuff with the SOAP HTTP binding?

Glen: SOAP HTTP binding is different than WSDL HTTP binding

Paul: Lots of useful work here.. why not reuse?

Glen: Would want to vet anything like that (adding properties

Jonathan: Anyone +1 Arthur's concern about not going there wi

TomJ: +1

Jonathan: Most folks sound like they're up for some level of

DavidO: Two things - 1) "full potato" proposal, 2) Transfer-c

Jonathan: Would be good to have proposed syntax for each of t

<scribe> ACTION: Dave Orchard to produce proposal for expressing Trans

greek chorus: <silence>

Jonathan: If no proposals, we won't put 'em in...

<dbooth> [Meeting Adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Dave Orchard to produce proposal for expressing Trans

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 1.79 (CVS log)
$Date: 2004/05/11 13:37:20 $