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[corrected] Minutes, 13 May 2004 WS Desc telcon

From: Jonathan Marsh <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 14:34:48 -0700
Message-ID: <DF1BAFBC28DF694A823C9A8400E71EA203BBD5F0@RED-MSG-30.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
Here are the corrected minutes.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Booth [mailto:dbooth@w3.org]
> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 9:32 AM
> To: paul.downey@bt.com; ygoland@bea.com; Jonathan Marsh
> Cc: www-ws-desc@w3.org
> Subject: RE: FW: Minutes, 13 May 2004 WS Desc telcon
> 
> Somehow when Glen grabbed the IRC log the lines were chopped at 80
> characters.
> 
> Here are the 13 May 2004 minutes again that Glen took, with the
exception
> of action items and roll call to be supplied by JMarsh.
> 
> 
> At 03:12 AM 5/21/2004 +0100, paul.downey@bt.com wrote:
> >me too..
> >
> >         -----Original Message-----
> >         From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org on behalf of Yaron Y.
Goland
> >         Sent: Thu 20/05/2004 18:51
> >         To: Jonathan Marsh
> >         Cc: www-ws-desc@w3.org
> >         Subject: Re: FW: Minutes, 13 May 2004 WS Desc telcon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         Is it just me or does every sentence look chopped off in
these
> > minutes?
> >
> >         Jonathan Marsh wrote:
> >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         > -----Original Message-----
> >         > From: Glen Daniels [mailto:gdaniels@sonicsoftware.com]
> >         > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 8:50 AM
> >         > To: Jonathan Marsh
> >         > Subject: Minutes
> >         >
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan:
> >         >
> >         > Here are the generated minutes for the telcon last week.
It
> > looks a
> >         > little weird to me in a couple of places, but that just
seems
> > to be on
> >         > my machine - looks OK on David Booth's.
> >         >
> >         > I cut out the AI review since the script kind of mangled
that
> > based on
> >         > the way I did it (cutting and pasting with line breaks
> confused the
> >         > script), and David said you usually put that stuff in
anyway.
> >         >
> >         > I didn't know how to merge the attendance record in, so I
just
> > put it in
> >         > a <pre> tag.  If this isn't right, please let me know how
you
> > like it
> >         > done and I'll fix it.
> >         >
> >         > --Glen
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >         >
> >         > <http://www.w3.org/>
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >   WSDL Telcon
> >         >   13 May 2004
> >         >
> >         > See also: IRC log
<http://www.w3.org/2004/05/13-ws-desc-irc>
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >     Attendees
> >         >
> >         > Present:
> >         >  Erik Ackerman          Lexmark
> >         >  David Booth            W3C
> >         >  Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
> >         >  Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
> >         >  Ugo Corda              SeeBeyond
> >         >  Glen Daniels           Sonic Software
> >         >  Paul Downey            British Telecommunications
> >         >  Youenn Fablet          Canon
> >         >  Hugo Haas              W3C
> >         >  Hao He                 Thomson
> >         >  Tom Jordahl            Macromedia
> >         >  Amelia Lewis           TIBCO
> >         >  Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
> >         >  Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
> >         >  Josephine Micallef     Telcordia/SAIC
> >         >  Jeff Mischkinsky       Oracle
> >         >  Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
> >         >  Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
> >         >  David Orchard          BEA Systems
> >         >  Bijan Parsia           University of Maryland MIND Lab
> >         >  Arthur Ryman           IBM
> >         >  Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
> >         >  William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard
> >         >  Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
> >         >  Umit Yalcinalp         Oracle
> >         >  Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc.
> >         >
> >         > Regrets:
> >         >  None
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >     Contents
> >         >
> >         >     * Topics <#agenda>
> >         >          1. 2. Approval of minutes <#item01>
> >         >          2. 3. Review of Action item [.1]. <#item02>
> >         >          3. 4. Administrivia <#item03>
> >         >          4. 5. Task Force Status. <#item04>
> >         >          5. 6. New Issues. Issues list [.1]. <#item05>
> >         >          6. 7. Issue 54: Allow binding to any HTTP method
[.1]
> > <#item06>
> >         >          7. 8. HTTP [optimization] properties [.1]:
<#item07>
> >         >     * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >       2. Approval of minutes
> >         >
> >         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: - May 6th [.1]
> >         >
> >         > APPROVED
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >       3. Review of Action item [.1].
> >         >
> >         > ? 2004-01-28: Philippe and JMarsh will look at the ip
> >         >
> >         > scribe: test suite.
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> PENDING
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> DONE [.2] 2004-02-12: DaveO to produce a refined
> > proposal for
> >         >
> >         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: HTTP binding addressing the concerns of
> >         > ...that object to leaving replyTo info out
> >         >
> >         > ? 2004-04-01: Marsh will get schema tf going.
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> PENDING
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> DONE [.3] 2004-04-29: Arthur to write up concerns
> > about XML 1
> >         >
> >         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: implications on WSDL 2.0 for potential
> >         > ...forwarding to XML WG.
> >         >
> >         > ? 2004-04-29: Umit to work with Anish to create a wor
> >         >
> >         > scribe: draft on media types ready for our May
> >         > ...meeting in NYC.
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> PENDING
> >         >
> >         > ? 2004-04-29: Part 1 editors to adopt Jacek's "purpos
> >         >
> >         > scribe: binding" text, without "interchangeable
> >         > ...endpoints, and using "confidentiality"
> >         > ...similar) instead of TLS.
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> PENDING
> >         >
> >         > ? 2004-05-06: JJM to incorporate this proposal (SOAP
> >         >
> >         > scribe: Binding) after removing parts that are
> >         > ...to media type and intermediary
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> PENDING, partially done
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> DONE 2004-05-06: Marsh to draft David O or Hugo
to
> write
> >         >
> >         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: proposal for describing the requirement
> >         > ...capabilities bucket of http features
> >         >
> >         > ? 2004-05-06: Part 3 editors to incorporate Sanjiva's
> >         >
> >         > scribe: proposal.
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> DONE
> >         >
> >         > ? 2004-04-29: Umit to work with Anish to create a wor
> >         >
> >         > scribe: draft on media types ready for our May
> >         > ...meeting in NYC.
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> DONE (Umit arrived and updated us)
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >       4. Administrivia
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Will try to get draft agenda out EOD Friday
> >         >
> >         > Proposed testing meeting Thursday afternoon in NYC for
those
> >         >
> >         > Umit: What's up with MTOM/XOP?
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: We should have some discussion about that at the
F2
> >         > ...Goal was to finish all issues - not too likely at t
> >         >
> >         > Kevin: Phone access?
> >         >
> >         > Sanjiva: Should be phone, but not sure of quality...
> >         > ...c. Review of I18N WS Task Force documents [.6]
> >         >
> >         > [.6]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >       5. Task Force Status.
> >         >
> >         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: a. Media type description
> >         > ...- Draft of first WD for WG approval by May FTF.
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Would be good to get consensus on publishing the
dr
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >       6. New Issues. Issues list [.1].
> >         >
> >         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: - Track operation safety (TAG) [.2]
> >         >
> >         > Opening new issue
> >         >
> >         > scribe: - Normative dependence on XML Schema 1.0 precludes
XML
> 1.1
> >         > ...- Can a WSDL 2.0 XML 1.1 document contain (or
reference), a
> >         > ...- Is it valid for a XML 1.1 document to import or
include a
> >         >
> >         > Add new issues
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >       7. Issue 54: Allow binding to any HTTP method [.1]
> >         >
> >         >
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/0093.
> >         >
> >         > Hugo: (summarizes proposal)
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Big question is do we want extensibility at the
me
> >         >
> >         > David: Wanted to see concrete proposal before going ahead.
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Issues with having a QName as opposed to an
HTTP-sp
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: Why not just a string?
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Name collisions, IBM-foo vs. Microsoft-foo
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: Arent these HTTP verbs? GET, POST, etc?
> >         >
> >         > Hugo: This came from discussion of using HTTP method as
metho
> >         > ...This means you need to specify a bunch of things, which
> >         >
> >         > <pauld>
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/0042.h
> >         >
> >         > Sanjiva: Clarify what this proposal is about?
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Status quo == a string for method, with various
oth
> >         >
> >         > Sanjiva: For common usage, the HTTP method might be
variable,
> >         > ...Capture extensibility in
> >         > ...HTTP methods by using a String
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: Combining how you're serializing with the method
seem
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Maybe we should change "method" to
"method-and-relate
> >         >
> >         > Paul: On the wire, both IBM:BUY and MS:BUY would be the
same.
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Tooling would know that particular serializations,
et
> >         >
> >         > Umit: There's a distinction between method and the other
stuf
> >         >
> >         > JeffM: Does this lead to everyone defining QNames for
every c
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Basic HTTP should only have a few. Trying to
provide
> >         >
> >         > JeffM: How does this optimize for the simple case, do we
spec
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: For basic HTTP, yes
> >         >
> >         > JeffM: Why not F&P, by the way?
> >         >
> >         > Hugo: Table 3.1 is modelled on the XForms submission
table, a
> >         >
> >         > <umit> +1 to Arthur
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: Why not just have attributes for basic stuff like
me
> >         >
> >         > <sanjiva> I'm confused as to why we don't introduce
> > http:serialization
> >         >
> >         > <Arthur> +1 to Sanjiva
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: F&P vs. WSDL extensibility is a separate issue
> >         >
> >         > <Arthur> +1
> >         >
> >         > <Arthur> +q
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: We have use cases for this stuff, but they aren't
gre
> >         >
> >         > <umit> +1 to Marsh :-)
> >         >
> >         > <sanjiva> +1 too!
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Why isn't it better to enable extensibility for
eac
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Worried about a more-complex-looking proposal...
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: QName makes spec harder to read (as opposed to
"GET",
> >         > ...Doesn't scale if you need new QName for every combo
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Do we have a "full potato" proposal?
> >         >
> >         > Hugo: Had one, but it looked overly complicated...
> >         >
> >         > scribe note - "full potato" == allow setting all
properties i
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Can the group see it?
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Would no extensibility for method be OK?
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: We clearly have a requirement from somewhere
(WEBDAV)
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Isn't strictly a requirement yet...
> >         >
> >         > <Zakim> sanjiva, you wanted to make a proposal
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: Why exclude WEBDAV folks, though
> >         >
> >         > <pauld> and Atom uses PUT and DELETE ...
> >         >
> >         > Sanjiva: Change method name to string, values are same as
HTT
> >         > ...Then introduce properties as needed
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Yes, you mean the "full potato"
> >         > ...Big question is do we want a full-featured HTTP bin
> >         >
> >         > <sanjiva> In my mind, doing a full featured HTTP binding
begs
> > for prof
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Want to make this real, and will peel however many
po
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: Simple case shouldn't be complicated.
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: If you say "PUT" that should default other
properti
> >         >
> >         > <sanjiva> I'm against defaulting serialization format -
just
> > make it a
> >         >
> >         > Hugo: Full potato with clever defaulting is what we should
ex
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Sounds like...
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >       8. HTTP [optimization] properties [.1]:
> >         >
> >         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: - Summary:
> >         > ...+ HTTP Version
> >         > ...+ Content coding
> >         > ...+ Transfer Codings (Chunked encoding)
> >         > ...+ Caching (Vary, etc.)
> >         > ...+ Content Negotiation ?
> >         >
> >         > [.1]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/
> >         >
> >         > [.2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/
> >         >
> >         > [.3]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Certain common cases will cause Content coding not
to
> >         >
> >         > (darn return key)
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: ...used
> >         > ...Two buckets - required and extensions. Transfer codi
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Clear that some of these things are needed, and
the
> >         > ...Need to figure out which of these things goes in, s
> >         > ...Do we need these in the core spec? (back to questio
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Getting most of the HTTP functionality seems
pretty s
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Looks like adding 10-15 attributes, which in
most c
> >         >
> >         > Glen: If people want to do these things, we should supply
the
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: How many folks are psyched about implementing
this?
> >         >
> >         > Arthur: Setting all this stuff up doesn't have a lot of
benef
> >         > ...It's really a small optimization (saving round trips)
> >         >
> >         > <dbooth> GlenD: If you're a cell phone, an additional
round
> > trip is a bi
> >         >
> >         > Paul: +1 to Glen, mobile interactions are expensive, so
optim
> >         > ...Also, optimization in general (GZIP available, etc) is
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: BEA has been deploying GET and POST with tweakable
se
> >         > ...You need to know what uname/pw to use, for instance,
> >         >
> >         > <pauld> how to describe a service is protected by BA is
> > something i'm
> >         >
> >         > Sanjiva: May be properties which affect the programming
model
> >         > ...Rest as hints/optimizations are OK
> >         >
> >         > Paul: Can we reuse this stuff with the SOAP HTTP binding?
> >         >
> >         > Glen: SOAP HTTP binding is different than WSDL HTTP
binding
> >         >
> >         > Paul: Lots of useful work here.. why not reuse?
> >         >
> >         > Glen: Would want to vet anything like that (adding
properties
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Anyone +1 Arthur's concern about not going there
wi
> >         >
> >         > TomJ: +1
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Most folks sound like they're up for some level
of
> >         >
> >         > DavidO: Two things - 1) "full potato" proposal, 2)
Transfer-c
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: Would be good to have proposed syntax for each
of t
> >         >
> >         > <scribe> *ACTION:* Dave Orchard to produce proposal for
> > expressing Trans
> >         >
> >         > greek chorus: <silence>
> >         >
> >         > Jonathan: If no proposals, we won't put 'em in...
> >         >
> >         > <dbooth> [Meeting Adjourned]
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >     Summary of Action Items
> >         >
> >         > *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Dave Orchard to produce proposal for
> > expressing Trans
> >         >
> >         > Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 1.79
> >         >
<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribe.perl>
> > (CVS log
> >         > <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/scribe.perl>)
> >         > $Date: 2004/05/11 13:37:20 $
> >         >
> >
> >
> 
> --
> David Booth
> W3C Fellow / Hewlett-Packard
> Telephone: +1.617.253.1273


Received on Wednesday, 26 May 2004 17:34:17 GMT

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