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RE: FW: Minutes, 13 May 2004 WS Desc telcon

From: David Booth <dbooth@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:32:21 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20040521122716.02ebbe40@localhost>
To: <paul.downey@bt.com>, <ygoland@bea.com>, <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
Cc: <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
Somehow when Glen grabbed the IRC log the lines were chopped at 80 
characters.

Here are the 13 May 2004 minutes again that Glen took, with the exception 
of action items and roll call to be supplied by JMarsh.


At 03:12 AM 5/21/2004 +0100, paul.downey@bt.com wrote:
>me too..
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org on behalf of Yaron Y. Goland
>         Sent: Thu 20/05/2004 18:51
>         To: Jonathan Marsh
>         Cc: www-ws-desc@w3.org
>         Subject: Re: FW: Minutes, 13 May 2004 WS Desc telcon
>
>
>
>
>         Is it just me or does every sentence look chopped off in these 
> minutes?
>
>         Jonathan Marsh wrote:
>
>         >
>         >
>         > -----Original Message-----
>         > From: Glen Daniels [mailto:gdaniels@sonicsoftware.com]
>         > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 8:50 AM
>         > To: Jonathan Marsh
>         > Subject: Minutes
>         >
>         >
>         > Jonathan:
>         >
>         > Here are the generated minutes for the telcon last week.  It 
> looks a
>         > little weird to me in a couple of places, but that just seems 
> to be on
>         > my machine - looks OK on David Booth's.
>         >
>         > I cut out the AI review since the script kind of mangled that 
> based on
>         > the way I did it (cutting and pasting with line breaks confused the
>         > script), and David said you usually put that stuff in anyway.
>         >
>         > I didn't know how to merge the attendance record in, so I just 
> put it in
>         > a <pre> tag.  If this isn't right, please let me know how you 
> like it
>         > done and I'll fix it.
>         >
>         > --Glen
>         >
>         >
>         > 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         >
>         > <http://www.w3.org/>
>         >
>         >
>         >   WSDL Telcon
>         >   13 May 2004
>         >
>         > See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2004/05/13-ws-desc-irc>
>         >
>         >
>         >     Attendees
>         >
>         > Present:
>         >  Erik Ackerman          Lexmark
>         >  David Booth            W3C
>         >  Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
>         >  Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
>         >  Ugo Corda              SeeBeyond
>         >  Glen Daniels           Sonic Software
>         >  Paul Downey            British Telecommunications
>         >  Youenn Fablet          Canon
>         >  Hugo Haas              W3C
>         >  Hao He                 Thomson
>         >  Tom Jordahl            Macromedia
>         >  Amelia Lewis           TIBCO
>         >  Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
>         >  Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
>         >  Josephine Micallef     Telcordia/SAIC
>         >  Jeff Mischkinsky       Oracle
>         >  Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
>         >  Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
>         >  David Orchard          BEA Systems
>         >  Bijan Parsia           University of Maryland MIND Lab
>         >  Arthur Ryman           IBM
>         >  Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
>         >  William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard
>         >  Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
>         >  Umit Yalcinalp         Oracle
>         >  Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc.
>         >
>         > Regrets:
>         >  None
>         >
>         >
>         >     Contents
>         >
>         >     * Topics <#agenda>
>         >          1. 2. Approval of minutes <#item01>
>         >          2. 3. Review of Action item [.1]. <#item02>
>         >          3. 4. Administrivia <#item03>
>         >          4. 5. Task Force Status. <#item04>
>         >          5. 6. New Issues. Issues list [.1]. <#item05>
>         >          6. 7. Issue 54: Allow binding to any HTTP method [.1] 
> <#item06>
>         >          7. 8. HTTP [optimization] properties [.1]: <#item07>
>         >     * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>
>         >
>         >
>         >       2. Approval of minutes
>         >
>         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: - May 6th [.1]
>         >
>         > APPROVED
>         >
>         >
>         >       3. Review of Action item [.1].
>         >
>         > ? 2004-01-28: Philippe and JMarsh will look at the ip
>         >
>         > scribe: test suite.
>         >
>         > <scribe> PENDING
>         >
>         > <scribe> DONE [.2] 2004-02-12: DaveO to produce a refined 
> proposal for
>         >
>         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: HTTP binding addressing the concerns of
>         > ...that object to leaving replyTo info out
>         >
>         > ? 2004-04-01: Marsh will get schema tf going.
>         >
>         > <scribe> PENDING
>         >
>         > <scribe> DONE [.3] 2004-04-29: Arthur to write up concerns 
> about XML 1
>         >
>         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: implications on WSDL 2.0 for potential
>         > ...forwarding to XML WG.
>         >
>         > ? 2004-04-29: Umit to work with Anish to create a wor
>         >
>         > scribe: draft on media types ready for our May
>         > ...meeting in NYC.
>         >
>         > <scribe> PENDING
>         >
>         > ? 2004-04-29: Part 1 editors to adopt Jacek's "purpos
>         >
>         > scribe: binding" text, without "interchangeable
>         > ...endpoints, and using "confidentiality"
>         > ...similar) instead of TLS.
>         >
>         > <scribe> PENDING
>         >
>         > ? 2004-05-06: JJM to incorporate this proposal (SOAP
>         >
>         > scribe: Binding) after removing parts that are
>         > ...to media type and intermediary
>         >
>         > <scribe> PENDING, partially done
>         >
>         > <scribe> DONE 2004-05-06: Marsh to draft David O or Hugo to write
>         >
>         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: proposal for describing the requirement
>         > ...capabilities bucket of http features
>         >
>         > ? 2004-05-06: Part 3 editors to incorporate Sanjiva's
>         >
>         > scribe: proposal.
>         >
>         > <scribe> DONE
>         >
>         > ? 2004-04-29: Umit to work with Anish to create a wor
>         >
>         > scribe: draft on media types ready for our May
>         > ...meeting in NYC.
>         >
>         > <scribe> DONE (Umit arrived and updated us)
>         >
>         >
>         >       4. Administrivia
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Will try to get draft agenda out EOD Friday
>         >
>         > Proposed testing meeting Thursday afternoon in NYC for those
>         >
>         > Umit: What's up with MTOM/XOP?
>         >
>         > Jonathan: We should have some discussion about that at the F2
>         > ...Goal was to finish all issues - not too likely at t
>         >
>         > Kevin: Phone access?
>         >
>         > Sanjiva: Should be phone, but not sure of quality...
>         > ...c. Review of I18N WS Task Force documents [.6]
>         >
>         > [.6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/
>         >
>         >
>         >       5. Task Force Status.
>         >
>         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: a. Media type description
>         > ...- Draft of first WD for WG approval by May FTF.
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Would be good to get consensus on publishing the dr
>         >
>         >
>         >       6. New Issues. Issues list [.1].
>         >
>         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: - Track operation safety (TAG) [.2]
>         >
>         > Opening new issue
>         >
>         > scribe: - Normative dependence on XML Schema 1.0 precludes XML 1.1
>         > ...- Can a WSDL 2.0 XML 1.1 document contain (or reference), a
>         > ...- Is it valid for a XML 1.1 document to import or include a
>         >
>         > Add new issues
>         >
>         >
>         >       7. Issue 54: Allow binding to any HTTP method [.1]
>         >
>         > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/0093.
>         >
>         > Hugo: (summarizes proposal)
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Big question is do we want extensibility at the me
>         >
>         > David: Wanted to see concrete proposal before going ahead.
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Issues with having a QName as opposed to an HTTP-sp
>         >
>         > Arthur: Why not just a string?
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Name collisions, IBM-foo vs. Microsoft-foo
>         >
>         > Arthur: Arent these HTTP verbs? GET, POST, etc?
>         >
>         > Hugo: This came from discussion of using HTTP method as metho
>         > ...This means you need to specify a bunch of things, which
>         >
>         > <pauld> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/0042.h
>         >
>         > Sanjiva: Clarify what this proposal is about?
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Status quo == a string for method, with various oth
>         >
>         > Sanjiva: For common usage, the HTTP method might be variable,
>         > ...Capture extensibility in
>         > ...HTTP methods by using a String
>         >
>         > Arthur: Combining how you're serializing with the method seem
>         >
>         > DavidO: Maybe we should change "method" to "method-and-relate
>         >
>         > Paul: On the wire, both IBM:BUY and MS:BUY would be the same.
>         >
>         > DavidO: Tooling would know that particular serializations, et
>         >
>         > Umit: There's a distinction between method and the other stuf
>         >
>         > JeffM: Does this lead to everyone defining QNames for every c
>         >
>         > DavidO: Basic HTTP should only have a few. Trying to provide
>         >
>         > JeffM: How does this optimize for the simple case, do we spec
>         >
>         > DavidO: For basic HTTP, yes
>         >
>         > JeffM: Why not F&P, by the way?
>         >
>         > Hugo: Table 3.1 is modelled on the XForms submission table, a
>         >
>         > <umit> +1 to Arthur
>         >
>         > Arthur: Why not just have attributes for basic stuff like me
>         >
>         > <sanjiva> I'm confused as to why we don't introduce 
> http:serialization
>         >
>         > <Arthur> +1 to Sanjiva
>         >
>         > DavidO: F&P vs. WSDL extensibility is a separate issue
>         >
>         > <Arthur> +1
>         >
>         > <Arthur> +q
>         >
>         > DavidO: We have use cases for this stuff, but they aren't gre
>         >
>         > <umit> +1 to Marsh :-)
>         >
>         > <sanjiva> +1 too!
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Why isn't it better to enable extensibility for eac
>         >
>         > DavidO: Worried about a more-complex-looking proposal...
>         >
>         > Arthur: QName makes spec harder to read (as opposed to "GET",
>         > ...Doesn't scale if you need new QName for every combo
>         >
>         > DavidO: Do we have a "full potato" proposal?
>         >
>         > Hugo: Had one, but it looked overly complicated...
>         >
>         > scribe note - "full potato" == allow setting all properties i
>         >
>         > DavidO: Can the group see it?
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Would no extensibility for method be OK?
>         >
>         > Arthur: We clearly have a requirement from somewhere (WEBDAV)
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Isn't strictly a requirement yet...
>         >
>         > <Zakim> sanjiva, you wanted to make a proposal
>         >
>         > Arthur: Why exclude WEBDAV folks, though
>         >
>         > <pauld> and Atom uses PUT and DELETE ...
>         >
>         > Sanjiva: Change method name to string, values are same as HTT
>         > ...Then introduce properties as needed
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Yes, you mean the "full potato"
>         > ...Big question is do we want a full-featured HTTP bin
>         >
>         > <sanjiva> In my mind, doing a full featured HTTP binding begs 
> for prof
>         >
>         > DavidO: Want to make this real, and will peel however many po
>         >
>         > Arthur: Simple case shouldn't be complicated.
>         >
>         > Jonathan: If you say "PUT" that should default other properti
>         >
>         > <sanjiva> I'm against defaulting serialization format - just 
> make it a
>         >
>         > Hugo: Full potato with clever defaulting is what we should ex
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Sounds like...
>         >
>         >
>         >       8. HTTP [optimization] properties [.1]:
>         >
>         > UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: - Summary:
>         > ...+ HTTP Version
>         > ...+ Content coding
>         > ...+ Transfer Codings (Chunked encoding)
>         > ...+ Caching (Vary, etc.)
>         > ...+ Content Negotiation ?
>         >
>         > [.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/
>         >
>         > [.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/
>         >
>         > [.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/
>         >
>         > DavidO: Certain common cases will cause Content coding not to
>         >
>         > (darn return key)
>         >
>         > DavidO: ...used
>         > ...Two buckets - required and extensions. Transfer codi
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Clear that some of these things are needed, and the
>         > ...Need to figure out which of these things goes in, s
>         > ...Do we need these in the core spec? (back to questio
>         >
>         > DavidO: Getting most of the HTTP functionality seems pretty s
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Looks like adding 10-15 attributes, which in most c
>         >
>         > Glen: If people want to do these things, we should supply the
>         >
>         > Jonathan: How many folks are psyched about implementing this?
>         >
>         > Arthur: Setting all this stuff up doesn't have a lot of benef
>         > ...It's really a small optimization (saving round trips)
>         >
>         > <dbooth> GlenD: If you're a cell phone, an additional round 
> trip is a bi
>         >
>         > Paul: +1 to Glen, mobile interactions are expensive, so optim
>         > ...Also, optimization in general (GZIP available, etc) is
>         >
>         > DavidO: BEA has been deploying GET and POST with tweakable se
>         > ...You need to know what uname/pw to use, for instance,
>         >
>         > <pauld> how to describe a service is protected by BA is 
> something i'm
>         >
>         > Sanjiva: May be properties which affect the programming model
>         > ...Rest as hints/optimizations are OK
>         >
>         > Paul: Can we reuse this stuff with the SOAP HTTP binding?
>         >
>         > Glen: SOAP HTTP binding is different than WSDL HTTP binding
>         >
>         > Paul: Lots of useful work here.. why not reuse?
>         >
>         > Glen: Would want to vet anything like that (adding properties
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Anyone +1 Arthur's concern about not going there wi
>         >
>         > TomJ: +1
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Most folks sound like they're up for some level of
>         >
>         > DavidO: Two things - 1) "full potato" proposal, 2) Transfer-c
>         >
>         > Jonathan: Would be good to have proposed syntax for each of t
>         >
>         > <scribe> *ACTION:* Dave Orchard to produce proposal for 
> expressing Trans
>         >
>         > greek chorus: <silence>
>         >
>         > Jonathan: If no proposals, we won't put 'em in...
>         >
>         > <dbooth> [Meeting Adjourned]
>         >
>         >
>         >     Summary of Action Items
>         >
>         > *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Dave Orchard to produce proposal for 
> expressing Trans
>         >
>         > Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 1.79
>         > <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribe.perl> 
> (CVS log
>         > <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/scribe.perl>)
>         > $Date: 2004/05/11 13:37:20 $
>         >
>
>

-- 
David Booth
W3C Fellow / Hewlett-Packard
Telephone: +1.617.253.1273


Received on Friday, 21 May 2004 12:32:26 GMT

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