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RE: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150

From: Jonathan Marsh <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:28:43 -0800
Message-ID: <DF1BAFBC28DF694A823C9A8400E71EA2030486EA@RED-MSG-30.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: "Roberto Chinnici" <Roberto.Chinnici@Sun.COM>, "Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com>
Cc: "Martin Gudgin" <mgudgin@microsoft.com>, "Jacek Kopecky" <jacek.kopecky@systinet.com>, "Tom Jordahl" <tomj@macromedia.com>, "WS Description List" <www-ws-desc@w3.org>

If the problem arises from conflating "any one element" with "any
element sequence" we could just add another token for that case.

(Doesn't look like 60 seconds will suffice to make progress on this.  I
encourage some use cases motivating the feature...)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-desc-request@w3.org]
On
> Behalf Of Roberto Chinnici
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:39 AM
> To: Sanjiva Weerawarana
> Cc: Martin Gudgin; Jacek Kopecky; Tom Jordahl; WS Description List
> Subject: Re: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> 
> 
> But then you get back to the pitfall I mentioned earlier, i.e.
> that some bindings will only support one element, making an
> application that tried to pass more than one element inadvertently
> binding-specific.
> 
> So if we handle this case at all (we could call it (5)), we should
> do so using extensibility.
> 
> Roberto
> 
> 
> Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> > I'd be ok with saying element="#any" means any number of
> > any elements. That has a natural binding in the SOAP case
> > to "stuff it inside <Body>."
> >
> > Then we can indeed describe any SOAP message.
> >
> > Sanjiva.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Gudgin" <mgudgin@microsoft.com>
> > To: "Jacek Kopecky" <jacek.kopecky@systinet.com>; "Tom Jordahl"
> > <tomj@macromedia.com>
> > Cc: "WS Description List" <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 5:53 AM
> > Subject: RE: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >
> >
> >
> >>Jacek,
> >>
> >>It seems odd ( to me at least ) that WSDL not allow me to describe
> >>messages that are clearly OK per the SOAP spec.
> >>
> >>Gudge
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-desc-request@w3.org]
On
> >>Behalf Of Jacek Kopecky
> >>Sent: 23 March 2004 06:20
> >>To: Tom Jordahl
> >>Cc: 'WS Description List'
> >>Subject: RE: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>
> >>
> >>Tom, I originally meant the issue 146 as really allowing anything in
the
> >>message, but I will have no problem with constraining that to "any
> >>single element", it suits the usecase I have in mind here - a
> >>content-based router endpoint that receives any message.
> >>
> >>This way the spec will be clearer and more consistent and the
> >>restriction to a single element in SOAP Body doesn't seem too bad;
noone
> >>knows how to handle multiple elements there anyway. 8-)
> >>
> >>                   Jacek Kopecky
> >>
> >>                   Systinet Corporation
> >>                   http://www.systinet.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>On Mon, 2004-03-22 at 23:07, Tom Jordahl wrote:
> >>
> >>>I actually never believed we were discussing (4), I had always
assumed
> >>
> >>(3).
> >>
> >>>I am also against the idea that you can get away with sticking
> >>
> >>*anything* in
> >>
> >>>to the message.  Now I understand why Umit is so worked up. :-)
> >>>
> >>>I propose we clarify the meaning of "#any" to be explicit that we
are
> >>>specifying "any element", not "any stuff you want".
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Tom Jordahl
> >>>Macromedia Server Development
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Roberto Chinnici [mailto:Roberto.Chinnici@Sun.COM]
> >>>Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 4:36 PM
> >>>To: Arthur Ryman
> >>>Cc: Sanjiva Weerawarana; Martin Gudgin; Tom Jordahl; WS Description
> >>
> >>List;
> >>
> >>>www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >>>Subject: Re: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>
> >>>I find the current syntax nice and readble in three of the four
cases:
> >>>
> >>>   1)  element="myns:Foo"
> >>>   2)  element="#none"
> >>>   3)  element="#any" (where "#any" means "any element")
> >>>
> >>>It's the fourth case, i.e.
> >>>   4)  element="#any" (where "#any" means "anything, any kind of
> >>
> >>content")
> >>
> >>>that is problematic.
> >>>
> >>>I'm actually having second thoughts on conflating (3) and (4).
> >>>
> >>>I think that Umit has a point when she says that by adopting (4)
we've
> >>>moved away from an element-based content model representation.
> >>>
> >>>Moreover, given that some bindings might have restrictions on the
> >>>allowable payloads for a message, it seems important to distinguish
> >>>between (3) and (4). Otherwise an application written to the
abstract
> >>>layer of WSDL will feel authorized, upon encountering a message
> >>>definition which specified element="#any", to pass arbitrary
content
> >>>around, including content of a kind that will be systematically
> >>
> >>rejected
> >>
> >>>by the binding in use. Then we'd fall back again in the trap of
> >>
> >>writing
> >>
> >>>applications to a specific binding rather than to the abstract
> >>
> >>interface.
> >>
> >>>Roberto
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Arthur Ryman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Sanjiva,
> >>>>
> >>>>The attribute @element formerly refered to the QName of an element
> >>>>(GED). However, now it may not refer to an element. In fact, the
> >>
> >>message
> >>
> >>>>content might be a simple type, or anything else, including
nothing.
> >>
> >>So
> >>
> >>>>it is a minor misnomer to call the attribute @element. However,
most
> >>
> >>of
> >>
> >>>>the time it will refer to an element. Logically, the attribute
> >>
> >>describes
> >>
> >>>>the message content, which is often, but not always, an element.
> >>>>
> >>>>Arthur Ryman,
> >>>>Rational Desktop Tools Development
> >>>>
> >>>>phone: +1-905-413-3077, TL 969-3077
> >>>>assistant: +1-905-413-2411, TL 969-2411
> >>>>fax: +1-905-413-4920, TL 969-4920
> >>>>mobile: +1-416-939-5063
> >>>>intranet: http://w3.torolab.ibm.com/DEAB/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>*"Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com>*
> >>>>Sent by: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >>>>
> >>>>03/16/2004 10:02 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>To
> >>>>"Martin Gudgin" <mgudgin@microsoft.com>, "Tom Jordahl"
> >>>><tomj@macromedia.com>, Arthur Ryman/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> >>>>cc
> >>>>"WS Description List" <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
> >>>>Subject
> >>>>Re: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm confused .. I thought we're talking about special values to
> >>>>assign to the operation/(input|output)/@element attribute to
> >>>>indicate any content (#any) or no content (#empty).
> >>>>
> >>>>What does this have to do with changing the name of the attribute?
> >>>>
> >>>>Sanjiva.
> >>>>
> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>From: "Martin Gudgin" <mgudgin@microsoft.com>
> >>>>To: "Tom Jordahl" <tomj@macromedia.com>; "Arthur Ryman"
> >>
> >><ryman@ca.ibm.com>
> >>
> >>>>Cc: "WS Description List" <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
> >>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 1:43 AM
> >>>>Subject: RE: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Have you implemented it already? ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>>Gudge
> >>>>
> >>>>P.S. I've always thought it mildly amusing to have an attribute
> >>
> >>whose
> >>
> >>>>name is element ( or vice versa ) ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >>>>[mailto:www-ws-desc-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Tom Jordahl
> >>>>Sent: 16 March 2004 11:01
> >>>>To: 'Arthur Ryman'
> >>>>Cc: 'WS Description List'
> >>>>Subject: RE: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>We just changed the name of this attribute to "element".
> >>>>
> >>>>-1 to changing it AGAIN.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>Tom Jordahl
> >>>>Macromedia Server Development
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: Arthur Ryman [mailto:ryman@ca.ibm.com]
> >>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 1:05 PM
> >>>>To: Tom Jordahl
> >>>>Cc: 'Jonathan Marsh'; 'WS Description List';
> >>>>www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >>>>Subject: RE: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Correction to my note:
> >>>>
> >>>>s/elementReference/element/
> >>>>
> >>>>Same comment applies. It's not an element anymore.
> >>>>
> >>>>Arthur Ryman,
> >>>>Rational Desktop Tools Development
> >>>>
> >>>>phone: +1-905-413-3077, TL 969-3077
> >>>>assistant: +1-905-413-2411, TL 969-2411
> >>>>fax: +1-905-413-4920, TL 969-4920
> >>>>mobile: +1-416-939-5063
> >>>>intranet: http://w3.torolab.ibm.com/DEAB/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Tom Jordahl <tomj@macromedia.com>
> >>>>Sent by: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >>>>
> >>>>03/16/2004 09:30 AM
> >>>>
> >>>>To
> >>>>
> >>>>"'Jonathan Marsh'" <jmarsh@microsoft.com>, "'WS Description List'"
> >>>><www-ws-desc@w3.org>
> >>>>
> >>>>cc
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Subject
> >>>>
> >>>>RE: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Jonathan,
> >>>>
> >>>>You meant to say "elementReference is the name of a type so it
> >>>>would NOT appear in the syntax"
> >>>>
> >>>>Right?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>Tom Jordahl
> >>>>Macromedia Server Development
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >>>>[mailto:www-ws-desc-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Marsh
> >>>>Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 4:48 PM
> >>>>To: WS Description List
> >>>>Subject: RE: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>elementReference is the name of a type so it would appear in the
> >>>>syntax.  I like messageBody better too.  Or I suppose we could
just
> >>
> >>get
> >>
> >>>>rid of the reference altogether, right?
> >>>>
> >>>><xs:attribute name="element" >
> >>>>      <xs:simpleType>
> >>>>              <xs:union memberTypes="xs:QName">
> >>>>                      <xs:simpleType>
> >>>>                              <xs:restriction base="xs:token">
> >>>>                                      <xs:enumeration
> >>>>value="#any" />
> >>>>                                      <xs:enumeration
> >>>>value="#empty" />
> >>>>                              </xs:restriction>
> >>>>                      </xs:simpleType>
> >>>>              </xs:union>
> >>>>      </xs:simpleType>
> >>>></xs:attribute>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>From: Arthur Ryman [mailto:ryman@ca.ibm.com]
> >>>>Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 12:58 PM
> >>>>To: Sanjiva Weerawarana
> >>>>Cc: Jacek Kopecky; Jonathan Marsh; WS Description List;
> >>>>www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >>>>Subject: Re: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Sanjiva,
> >>>>
> >>>>The XML Schema looks fine except for a couple of minor errors.
> >>>>Here's a corrected version:
> >>>>
> >>>>      <xs:attribute name="element" type="elementReference" />
> >>>>
> >>>>      <xs:simpleType name="elementReference">
> >>>>              <xs:union memberTypes="xs:QName">
> >>>>                      <xs:simpleType>
> >>>>                              <xs:restriction base="xs:token">
> >>>>                                      <xs:enumeration
> >>>>value="#any" />
> >>>>                                      <xs:enumeration
> >>>>value="#empty" />
> >>>>                              </xs:restriction>
> >>>>                      </xs:simpleType>
> >>>>              </xs:union>
> >>>>      </xs:simpleType>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>However, I dislike the name of the attribute, elementReference,
> >>>>since the whole point of introducing it was to allow the case
where
> >>>>there is no element reference. How about @messageBody or
> >>
> >>@bodyContent
> >>
> >>>>instead?
> >>>>
> >>>>Arthur Ryman,
> >>>>Rational Desktop Tools Development
> >>>>
> >>>>phone: +1-905-413-3077, TL 969-3077
> >>>>assistant: +1-905-413-2411, TL 969-2411
> >>>>fax: +1-905-413-4920, TL 969-4920
> >>>>mobile: +1-416-939-5063
> >>>>intranet: http://w3.torolab.ibm.com/DEAB/
> >>>>
> >>>>"Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com>
> >>>>Sent by: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >>>>
> >>>>03/11/2004 10:50 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>To
> >>>>
> >>>>"Jacek Kopecky" <jacek.kopecky@systinet.com>, "Jonathan Marsh"
> >>>><jmarsh@microsoft.com>
> >>>>
> >>>>cc
> >>>>
> >>>>"WS Description List" <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
> >>>>
> >>>>Subject
> >>>>
> >>>>Re: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Looks good to me too .. however I'll let Arthur indicate an IBM
> >>>>position as I can barely spell schiema let alone make value
> >>>>judgements about the goodness of using unions.
> >>>>
> >>>>Sanjiva.
> >>>>
> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>From: "Jacek Kopecky" <jacek.kopecky@systinet.com>
> >>>>To: "Jonathan Marsh" <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
> >>>>Cc: "WS Description List" <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
> >>>>Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 8:58 PM
> >>>>Subject: Re: Proposed resolutions for issues 146 and 150
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I applaud the elegance of this proposal. 8-)
> >>>> > I hope it will be accepted.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Jacek
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 18:55, Jonathan Marsh wrote:
> >>>> > > Issues 146 [.1] and 150 [.2] were inadvertently left off the
> >>>>FTF agenda.
> >>>> > > Sorry my bad.  Here's a simple proposal for addressing these
> >>>>issues,
> >>>> > > assuming we find merit in adding this functionality.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Issue 146 Should WSDL be able to describe an operation with
> >>>>*anything*
> >>>> > > in the message? [.1]
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Issue 150 Indicating empty bodies [.2]
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > When using XML SchemaS, The element attribute points to a
> >>>>QName of a
> >>>> > > GED, preventing either empty bodies, or unconstrained
> >>>>content.  Special
> >>>> > > values of the element attribute could indicate these
> >>>>conditions.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Status quo:
> >>>> > >   <xs:attribute name="element" type="xs:QName"
> >>>>use="optional" />
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Proposal:
> >>>> > >   <xs:attribute name="element" type="elementReference"
> >>>>use="optional" />
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >   <xs:simpleType name="elementReference">
> >>>> > >     <xs:union>
> >>>> > >       <xs:simpleType memberTypes="xs:QName">
> >>>> > >         <xs:restriction base="xs:token">
> >>>> > >           <xs:enumeration value="#any"/>
> >>>> > >           <xs:enumeration value="#empty"/>
> >>>> > >         </xs:restriction>
> >>>> > >       </xs:simpleType>
> >>>> > >     </xs:union>
> >>>> > >   </xs:simpleType>
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > (I hope I have got that syntax right.  Should be enough to
> >>>>spark
> >>>> > > discussion anyway...)
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > [.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x146
> >>>> > > [.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x150
Received on Thursday, 25 March 2004 23:50:14 GMT

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