W3C

WS Description WG
16 Oct 2003

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present:
 Erik Ackerman          Lexmark
 David Booth            W3C
 Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
 Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
 Paul Downey            British Telecommunications
 Steve Graham           Global Grid Forum
 Jacek Kopecky          Systinet
 Philippe Le H├ęgaret    W3C
 Amelia Lewis           TIBCO
 Lily Liu               webMethods
 Ingo Melzer            DaimlerChrysler
 Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
 Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
 Arthur Ryman           IBM
 Adi Sakala             IONA Technologies
 Jeffrey Schlimmer      Microsoft
 Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
 Jerry Thrasher         Lexmark
 William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard
 Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
 Umit Yalcinalp         Oracle

Regrets:
 Dietmar Gaertner       Software AG
 Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
 Glen Daniels           Sonic
 Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
 Bijan Parsia           University of Maryland MIND Lab
 Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc.

Chair: dbooth

Scribe: Sanjiva

Contents


Approval of Minutes

<Ingo> Minutes of Oct 9th approved: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-arch/2003Oct/att-0027/arch-03-10-09.htm

Review of Action items

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-07-31: Philippe to make a proposal for fixing the HTTP binding. [PENDING]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-09-11: Philippe to write a response to Mark Baker proposing a property solution to HTTP verbs and ask whether this satisfies his request. [PENDING]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-09-18: Philippe, Marsh to review the QA operational guidelines. [PENDING]

Scribe: Philippe gets the weekly spanking: usual response .. but promises to *really* do them before the f2f!

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-09-23: Roberto, Glen to provide a counterproposal to the current proposal for endpoint references. [PENDING]

<Ingo> Robert did submit a counterproposal. Work is happening, but not done.

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-10-02: Editors to provide drafts for pub review a couple of days before the Oct 16th telcon. [PENDING]

<Ingo> Editors need some more time for the documents. Part 1 can be published
... in time.
... OK

<dbooth> ACTION: dbooth to check on pub moratorium

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-10-09: dbooth to sync with JMarsh to make sure RPC style rules gets added to next week's agenda [DONE]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-10-09: Sanjiva: send email explaining rational for pattern inference. [PENDING]

Administrivia

Scribe: Discussing Jan F2F - Arthur offers to host in Toronto, but still no decision on where it will be, because we're awaiting word from Glen on whether Sonic can host it.

Task Force Updates

Scribe: Attr taskforce: no new news

new issues

Scribe: New issue: cycle detection - Amy explains and wonders whether cycle detection within schemas is a job for the wsdl processor or a problem (feature) that results in a fatal error .. or a long, slow, painful death resulting in the lifegiving blood of computers called virtual memory.

David: Is Cyclical include sensible? Amy says yes. (Scribe wonders why)

<jeffsch> Shall we create a new issue in the issues list?

Scribe: ACTION: Amy to provide a use-case for cyclical includes.

<jeffsch> Cyclical includes is Issue 94

Faults

Scribe: David explains where we are with faults and notes we may have to wait since Roberto isn't here

<Ingo> We should wait until Roberto is back.

Scribe: Scribe explains his recollection but still not clear there's enough info to move forward.

<dbooth> Amy: Messages are 1-to-1 to message references in the MEP, whereas faults are many-to-1 to message references in the MEP.

Scribe: Amy & Umit believe we decided to add a "@name" NCName to name infault/outfault elements to allow bindings to point to specific faults.
... Sanjiva disagrees (per minutes) and chair says "let's continue discussion"
... Amy points out that there can be many faults per message reference whereas there's only one "regular" message per message reference.
... Sanjiva notes that faults can also be made 1-1 if you force users to put all the faults in an xsd:choice
... Amy notes that that's really busted because the semantics are not implied by the xsd:choice
... Umit +1s that view

<Ingo> +1

Scribe: Proposal from Jacek to add an optional @name NCName
... DBooth asks those against this approach to suggest alternate ways that allows users to address the requirement.
... Sanjiva challenges people to give a usecase to support this requirement.
... Roberto concerned about optional name - if its optional then binding guy may be stuck because the interface author was narrow minded.

DBooth: Let's give an action item to someone to come up with usecase. No volunteers. We will wait for a while for someone to do it if not drop this "requirement".

Patterns

Scribe: Before addressing Amy's proposal for adding 3 patterns, the Chair notes that there seems to be a deeper issue about the pattern stuff .. is there such a thing called a "normative" pattern?
... What does that mean?

<dbooth> We haven't been clear about the normative status of patterns. For example, I noticed:
... Roberto: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0255.html
... [[
... . . . I disagree with making
... this pattern normative. How about the compromise of having the pattern
... Amy proposes in a non-normative appendix to the patterns spec? We define
... it properly, assign it a URI, use it to elucidate the patterns
... framework, make it available for anybody to use it (if they have
... a binding for it, that is), but it's *not* normative.
... ]]
... Looking back at Jeffrey's suggestion at our last F2F:
... JeffSch: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Oct/0047.html
... [[
... jeffsch: I suggest patterns URIs are like styles, bindings, we don't
... require any of them being implemented; market pressures may cause
... most or all of them implemented in most implementations
... ]]

Scribe: DBooth posts some comments from previous f2f minutes to show Jeffrey's view of what "normative" means.
... (for pattern URIs)

<umit> I think there is a difference between what is normative and what is required. We seem to mix the two concepts.

Jack: Normative means binding from the URI to the semantics in the spec for that URI is fixed.

Scribe: Sanjiva says +1

<Roberto> I hope [required] implies [normative].

<umit> I believe that is implied.

<jeffsch> Agree required => normative
... +1 to Umit that we are not (yet) clear about normative =?=> required to implement

DBooth: 2 issues: (1) what do we normatively define, (2) what do we normatively require a wsdl processor to understand

Amy: requirement for a specific pattern to be supported comes from a particular binding

DBooth: does this mean we don't have to require a wsdl processor to understand particular bindings?

Amy: no such thing as an "abstract" wsdl processor - every wsdl processor eventually supports some bindings and those are what really makes certain patterns required.

DBooth: we are basically agreeing with the view suggested by Jeffrey

Roberto: agrees

DBooth: we appear to have consensus. Struggling with phrasing the consensus ;-)

Umit: we need a complete sweep of the spec to clarify what is normative, what is required and perhaps what is not required. Roberto use an example of alternative schema languages as a non-normative thing in the spec.

DBooth: When we normatively define a MEP, if that MEP is used in a WSDL doc then it MUST have the meaning defined in our specification.

Scribe: We appear to have consensus.
... Now discussing Amy's new patterns
... Roberto asks how we decide how many normative patterns to add?

<jeffsch> When we loop back to these patterns, I have a question about the third pattern.

Scribe: Amy suggests we allow people to add patterns to the list ..
... ack

Roberto: clarification on how you treat normative/non-normative stuff @ last call time

Philippe: normative and non-normative sections are treated equally at last call time

Scribe: Important point during pattern discussion: with message-triggers-fault: a fault terminates the pattern immediately

<scribe> ACTION: Part2 editors to clarify when faults terminate patterns (or not).
... With fault-replaces-message, no issue because the pattern is implicitly terminated because the message flow has been changed.

<dbooth> Amy's proposed patterns:
... robust-in-only
... robust-out-only
... asynch-out-in

Scribe: Objections to adopting Amy's patterns? None. We have accepted the proposed 3 patterns.

<scribe> ACTION: Part2 editors to update pattern spec accordingly.
... Chair adjourns the meeting 6 minutes early ;-)

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Amy to provide a use-case for cyclical includes.
[NEW] ACTION: Part2 editors to update pattern spec accordingly.
[NEW] ACTION: Part2 editors to clarify when faults terminate patterns (or not).
[NEW] ACTION: dbooth to check on pub moratorium

[PENDING] ACTION: 2003-09-23: Roberto, Glen to provide a counterproposal to the current proposal for endpoint references.
[PENDING] ACTION: 2003-09-18: Philippe, Marsh to review the QA operational guidelines.
[PENDING] ACTION: 2003-10-09: Sanjiva: send email explaining rational for pattern inference.
[PENDING] ACTION: 2003-09-11: Philippe to write a response to Mark Baker proposing a property solution to HTTP verbs and ask whether this satisfies his request.
[PENDING] ACTION: 2003-07-31: Philippe to make a proposal for fixing the HTTP binding.
[PENDING] ACTION: 2003-10-02: Editors to provide drafts for pub review a couple of days before the Oct 16th telcon.

[DONE] ACTION: 2003-10-09: dbooth to sync with JMarsh to make sure RPC style rules gets added to next week's agenda


Minutes formatted by David Booth's perl script: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
$Date: 2003/09/16 14:21:07 $