W3C

WS Description Teleconference
9 Oct 2003

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present:
 Erik Ackerman          Lexmark
 Mike Ballantyne        Electronic Data Systems
 David Booth            W3C
 Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
 Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
 Glen Daniels           Sonic Software
 Paul Downey            British Telecommunications
 Dietmar Gaertner       Software AG
 Jacek Kopecky          Systinet
 Philippe Le H├ęgaret    W3C
 Amelia Lewis           TIBCO
 Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
 Lily Liu               webMethods
 Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
 Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
 Bijan Parsia           University of Maryland MIND Lab
 Jeffrey Schlimmer      Microsoft
 Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
 Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
 Umit Yalcinalp         Oracle
 Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc.

Regrets:
 Youenn Fablet          Canon
 Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
 Ingo Melzer            DaimlerChrysler
 Arthur Ryman           IBM
 Jerry Thrasher         Lexmark
 William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard

Chair: DBooth (filling in for JMarsh)

Scribe: JJM

Contents


<sanjiva> I have to drop off today in about 30 mins .. apologies.
... That also means I can't scribe :-(

Approval of minutes

<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Oct/0047.html

Scribe: minutes approved as posted

Review of Action items

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-07-31: Philippe to make a proposal for fixing the HTTP binding. [UNKNOWN]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-09-11: Philippe to write a response to Mark Baker proposing a property solution to HTTP verbs and ask whether this satisfies his request. [UNKNOWN]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-09-18: Philippe, Marsh to review the QA operational guidelines. [UNKNOWN]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-09-23: Roberto, Glen: provide a counterproposal to the current proposal for endpoint references. [PENDING]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-10-02: Part 2 editors to replace "broadcast" with "multicast" in descriptive text. [DONE]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-10-02: Alewis should provide write-up of additional patterns for further discussion. [DONE]

<dbooth> ACTION: 2003-10-02: Editors to provide drafts for pub review a couple of days before the Oct 16th telcon. [PENDING]

Administrivia

Scribe: Registration for Nov f2f open. Please register.

<dbooth> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/3/05/f2fNovLogistics.htm

Scribe: Please register
... F2F meeting ends at noon on Wednesday.
... January F2F: Toronto or Boston
... Waiting for confirmation from Glen and Arthur

<scribe> ACTION: Glen to report on whether Sonic can hold January f2f

Task Force Status

Scribe: Skipping QA, being dealt with by JMarsh

New Issues. Merged issues list

Scribe: No new issues

Proposal for improving <documentation>

Scribe: Proposal from Sanjiva

<jeffsch> (No objection here)

Sanjiva: no feedback

<sanjiva> Silence is consensus?

Scribe: No objection to incorporating Sanjiva's proposal

Faults.

Sanjiva: syntactic change, messageRef m can result in fauts i1, i2, etc.
... no objection so far
... detail elements from list of QNames to repeating messageRef with same ref values

Jeffsch: +1

Roberto: +1

Scribe: No objection to incorporating Sanjiva's proposal (part 1)

Sanjiva: renaming to fault
... more controversial, can live without

DBooth: faults defined differently from messages, don't have names
... fault is identified by message it replaces

Sanjiva: context of any other message out of scope

Tom: no syntax, only detail element, QName pointing to schema

<dbooth> So under the fault-replaces-message rule, the fault would be indirectly identified by the name of the message that it replaces.

Glen: maybe keep notion of abstract fault name, for tools

Sanjiva: however patterns don't belong to WSDL?

Glen: "getStockQuote" is your particular name

Amy: need extra attribute

Glen: NCName is fine

Sanjiva: inconsistent doing it for one, not the other

<umit> +1 to adding a fault name.

Glen: look at Java, can throw multiple or no exception
... could add restriction over SOAP to detail element

Amy: how much belong in bindings?

Sanjiva: can't do it in bindings, unless have an explicit name

Glen: +1

Sanjiva: can we open a new issue?

Glen: why not complete the proposal?

Roberto: required or optional attribute?

Sanjiva: required

Glen: maybe at abstract level should only have name of the fault
... and in binding, put fault details

Tom: like exceptions in Java

Sanjiva: so don't give them element QName, give them names?

DBooth: sounds like we need more discussion by email
... also, other aspect, since not in Part1, would there be other ways people to add these messages?
... any other issues?

Kevin: add name attribute to fault?

Sanjiva: option 1: NCName to fault
... option 2: give symbolic name only, bind later

Kevin: our developpers want faults uniquely identifiable in WSDL

Sanjiva: this is addressed by both proposals

DBooth: continue by email

Sanjiva: Tom and Glen, do you think both options are feasible

Tom: need to think more about how it affects the interface
... willing to be convinced that having detail element would be enough to generate signature interface

Patterns

<sanjiva> I have to drop off now .. I'm +1 to adding the patterns that Amy sent but need more time to understand them precisely. (Given how poorly I had understood the basic patterns I am sure there's subtlety I haven't grok'ed.)

<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0249.html

Scribe: Not enough time for people to read; discuss next week

Pattern inference

Scribe: ACTION: Sanjiva: send email explaining rational for pattern inference

Binding message references in the component model

Jeffsch: no issue with this

<jeffsch> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0077.html

DBooth: related to discussion on faults?

Jeffsch: thinks this issue can be addressed now, to get us back on solid footing

Roberto: agree

Scribe: Any objections?

DBooth: make more consistent the binding of faults

Roberto: to mirror the abstract level

DBooth: modulo changing name to messageRef

Scribe: Any objections?
... No objection

<jeffsch> Added to the edtodo.html

Appendix E cleanup

Jack: need to cater for additional type systems
... jeffsch commented on extensibility

Glen: always been going in wrong direction in allowing Infoset-based descriptions for messages
... like what MTOM/PASSWA does

<jeffsch> I strongly agree with Glen's point about the value of the Infoset-level of abstraction, and expect there to be diminishing returns as we continue to generalize.
... However, we have multiple constituencies in the WG, and are being asked to find a way to describe significantly different architectures.

<bijan> I suspect that OWL types might need some help, but I'm completely unclear

<JacekK> ACTION: Bijan to look into message extensibility issues (Appendix E, Jacek's review) wrt RDF data, and discuss with Jacek

Endpoint references

Umit: still being discussed by subgroup
... discussing new approach; not sure when can report back, maybe a week

Pattern inference

DBooth: any one can report status?
... skip
... skip next one as well

Issue #88 Rename "operation" to "messageExchange" (again!?)

Jeffsch: made significant progress in the way WSDL works

<bijan> +1

Jeffsch: very exciting for developpers

<bijan> +1 again!

Jeffsch: suggest seat back before lastCall, and examine if new names are not necessary for the new component model

Tom: willing to have an open mind, but concerned about changing solid existing concepts
... objecting at least to operation
... would object any draft with name change violently disagree with
... wouldn't oppose overwhelming majority though

DBooth: I suggest that JMarsh (as chair, since he is responsible for sequencing our work) consider the suggestion by Jeffsch to revisit our naming once our major work has been performed

<JacekK> directly on the issue of renaming operation to messageExchange, I think that the current name, "operation", does have some additional semantics over messageExchange, and that those semantics fit well what we are modeling, so I want to keep the name.

<bijan> Its' *considering* renaming

Umit: disagree with Jack; no operation in JMS, for example

<bijan> With perhaps deferring such discussions *until* then

Umit: strong supported of changing that name

Jack: would have to rename interfaces as well
... disagree that we are just modelling message exchanges; would object

Roberto: +1 to Jeffsch

<dbooth> ACTION: JMarsh to consider adding JeffSch's suggestion to revisit naming questions later, after subtantive work is done, to future agenda

<bijan> Ooo! Good point Roberto!
... +2

DBooth: continue by email and move on

<Roberto> I'm actually -1 to Jeff's proposal if it comes too close to last call

Issue 2: SOAPAction has been deprecated, as of SOAP 1.2

<jeffsch> Agree that there's expense to implementations and specification to change names; not horrible, but pesky; completely comfortable with scrubbing names before last-call.

Glen: has been travelling

<bijan> Well, that cuts both ways. If I have an "operation" object, and operation 2.0 is different than 1.1...
... I need some differentiated anyhoo

Glen: elements to refer instead of property syntax
... volunteer to write up extra text to describe feature's architecture; still pending, unfortunaltely

Issue 64 Operations and HTTP verbs (Mark Baker)

Philippe: did not yet send email to Mark Baker

Using RDF in WSDL

<JacekK> ACTION: Jacek to discuss Bijan's action off-line with Bijan

Scribe: Meeting adjourned

<dbooth> ACTION: dbooth to sync with JMarsh to make sure RPC style rules gets added to next week's agenda

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Jacek to discuss Bijan's action off-line with Bijan
[NEW] ACTION: JMarsh to consider adding JeffSch's suggestion to revisit naming questions later, after subtantive work is done, to future agenda
[NEW] ACTION: Glen to report on whether Sonic can hold January f2f
[NEW] ACTION: Bijan to look into message extensibility issues (Appendix E, Jacek's review) wrt RDF data, and discuss with Jacek
[NEW] ACTION: dbooth to sync with JMarsh to make sure RPC style rules gets added to next week's agenda
[NEW] ACTION: Sanjiva: send email explaining rational for pattern inference

[PENDING] ACTION: 2003-09-23: Roberto, Glen: provide a counterproposal to the current proposal for endpoint references.
[PENDING] ACTION: 2003-10-02: Editors to provide drafts for pub review a couple of days before the Oct 16th telcon.


[DONE] ACTION: 2003-10-02: Part 2 editors to replace "broadcast" with "multicast" in descriptive text.
[DONE] ACTION: 2003-10-02: Alewis should provide write-up of additional patterns for further discussion.


[UNKNOWN] ACTION: 2003-09-11: Philippe to write a response to Mark Baker proposing a property solution to HTTP verbs and ask whether this satisfies his request.
[UNKNOWN] ACTION: 2003-09-18: Philippe, Marsh to review the QA operational guidelines.
[UNKNOWN] ACTION: 2003-07-31: Philippe to make a proposal for fixing the HTTP binding.


Minutes formatted by David Booth's perl script: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
$Date: 2003/09/16 14:21:07 $