3 Apr 2003



Mike BallantyneYElectronic Data Systems
David BoothW3C
Allen BrookesRogue Wave Software
Roberto ChinniciSun Microsystems
Glen DanielsMacromedia
Youenn FabletCanon
Dietmar GaertnerSoftware AG
Martin GudginMicrosoft
Tom JordahlMacromedia
Sandeep KumarCisco Systems
Philippe Le HégaretW3C
Amelia LewisTIBCO
Steve LindAT&T
Lily LiuwebMethods
Jonathan MarshChair (Microsoft)
Ingo MelzerDaimlerChrysler
Jeff MischkinskyOracle
Dale MobergCyclone Commerce
Jean-Jacques MoreauCanon
Arthur RymanIBM
Jeffrey SchlimmerMicrosoft
Igor SedukhinComputer Associates
William VambenepeHewlett-Packard
Prasad YendluriwebMethods, Inc.


Jacek KopeckySystinet
Kevin Canyang LiuSAP
Jerry ThrasherLexmark
Sanjiva WeerawaranaIBM

Chair: Jonathan Marsh

Scribe: amy


<Marsh> \invite Zakim
... oops

<Gudge> lol
... Zakim thinks you are
... we have TWO Roberto's

<Roberto> That's how lucky you are!

<Gudge> LOL

Scribe: Select
... Minutes approved.
... Action items: skip first (roberto/gudge branch). Philippe completed HTTP binding rework. Sanjiva summary: skip. Editors markup for assertions: Gudge says in process.
... Action items: Jonathan issues still in process. Philippe making proposal today. Glen sending out property rep of soap action today.
... Action items: Jonathan QA comments in process. David Booth reports that validator possible hosted at W3C; problems of maintenance discussed.
... Action items: registration for may complete. Jonathan raised travel issues on list.
... Action items: further discussion of validator: licensing issues.

Review of action items from Jonathan:

3.  Review of Action items [.1].
PENDING   2003-01-21: Roberto and gudge to create a branch and work up
                      a binding proposal based on referencing type
                      systems directly from operation components.
                      (Umit's example, Sanjiva's example, WSDL 1.1
                      example, and others.)
DONE [.2] 2003-02-13: Philippe to re-do HTTP bindings to allow 
                      per-method operation names etc.  Arthur to
PENDING   2003-02-27: Sanjiva to send summary of 
                      one-portType-per-service issue.
PENDING   2003-03-04: Editors to discuss markup for testable assertions
                      in the spec and come back with a strategy.
PENDING   2003-03-04: Jonathan to recruit a QA contact for the WG.
PENDING   2003-03-04: Jonathan to recruit a test contact for the WG.
PENDING   2003-03-13: Editors will find part 2 issues to dispatch 
                      easily next telcon.
PENDING   2003-03-13: Philippe will make a proposal concerning issue 
                      28 using features and properties.
PENDING   2003-03-13: GlenD to propose a Property representation of 
                      SOAP action parameter of application/soap+xml
PENDING   2003-03-13: Don will write a proposal for annotating schema 
                      with part information.
DONE [.3] 2003-03-20: Jonathan to slice and dice Amy's comments to 
                      submit to the QA group's web form
DONE      2003-03-20: David Booth to investigate what it takes to get 
                      a validator available as an official W3C entity 
DONE [.4] 2003-03-27: Dbooth to request registration page for May F2F
DONE [.5] 2003-03-27: Jonathan to raise F2F  travel issue on the 
                      discussion list and potentially develop 
                      backup plans
DONE      2003-03-27: Jonathan will follow-up with editors to figure 
                      out how to improve the prose of the spec to be 
                      aligned with schema.
PENDING   2003-03-27: Philippe write up a proposal for embedding bindary
                      data types in schema

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0068.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2003Mar/
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Mar/0031.html

<Philippe> Software license: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-software-20021231

Scribe: ACTION: Arthur to coordinate work on WSDL validator

<dbooth> List of people currently registered: http://cgi.w3.org/Register/selectUser.pl?_w3c_special=listRegistrants&_w3c_meetingName=WSAWG_WSDWG_200305

Scribe: Action items: Currently don't seem to have many travel restrictions requiring relocation of May face to face.
... Action items: Aligning prose with schema complete. Related issues to be raised later in agenda. Philippe on binary types is pending.

<Gudge> http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/jeffsch/paswa/paswa61.html
... it the latest copy

Scribe: Administrivia: DST US upcoming; May FTF registration closes 15 April, encourage soon-as-possible; September FTF looking for west-coast host, please apply to Jonathan. Jonathan gone next week; Philippe will chair.
... Administrivia: OWL in last call, should group offer review?
... Call for volunteers to review OWL from POV of WSD.
... (no volunteers)
... ACTION: Jonathan to respond to OWL with "no plans to review, no resources, little knowledge of why requested".

<dbooth> http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/0813-semweb-dbooth/slide37-0.html

Scribe: David Booth suggests that investigating OWL would be useful to the group.

dbooth: OWL result of standardization of DAML+OIL.

Scribe: DBooth suggests that OWL might be capable of representing the entire spectrum of web-related descriptions, WSDL -> choreo and beyond.
... Further discussion of semantic descriptions of WSDL; Jonathan suggests that the current requirement for RDF mapping may be out of scope for us.

<dbooth> Actually, i didn't mean to suggest that OWL would replace choreography.

Scribe: Suggestion: Normative schema to be supplemented by prose. Editors seem less than comfortable.
... Gudge suggests that since schema is not able to define all constraints, so it is odd to suggest that it is normative.
... Jonathan champions normative schema; Gudge continues objections.

<Marsh> Jonathan is trying to represent the position of the WG that emerged last week.

Scribe: Amy argues that the schema to be normative must be complete. Argument rejected by Arthur and Gudge, with example of schema for schema.
... Jonathan adds: if test assertions are to be added, then having a single one: abide by schema, should reduce number of assertions.
... Gudge proposes: when discrepancy between schema and spec, spec is normative. Example of W3C XML Schema. Schema is normative. DBooth suggests: schema redundant. Gudge agrees, but claims nonetheless useful.

dbooth: which is ultimate authority? Gudge: Spec says "me". DBooth: then schema isn't *normative*. JSchlimmer: both normative, but language resolves issue in favor of spec, when spec and schema disagree.

Scribe: Arthur suggests that minimal validation is validation against schema. Gudge+Arthur: no false negatives when validate against schema; false positives okay. Arthur suggests that validation per schema first; then validation per test assertions. "Normative" != complete.
... Jonathan: two parts. 1) Normative in spec: "WSDL doc invalid if it does not conform to schema". 2) Possible to remove redundant prose if schema is designated normative?

Arthur: Simplification an advantage, but blessed schema quite useful. Jonathan: okay to make schema normative in the sense proposed? DBooth: needs to be in TR space. Gudge/Arthur agree.

<jeffm> isn't this just the normal versioning/release/errata process

dbooth: TR space contains unchanging things. Dataspace allowed to change. Gudge says [x] put things only into dataspace, but have policy of no changes.

Scribe: Summary: general agreement apparently reached to refer to schema with normative language, discussion continues on what the URL of the schema ought to be and what change control regime it should be under.

Philippe: what do we do now? All drafts contain schemas. Arthur: need to avoid non-normative schema disaster of WSDL 1.1.

dbooth: Schema document will be separate, normative, in TR space. Jonathan: normative statement in spec pointing at schema.

Scribe: ACTION: Editors to include normative schema language in spec (conformance section?); schema to be separate, in TR space.
... Arthur on URL replacement: algo flexible, but not really REST. One fix: generalize replacement, so only some params in URL, others in body--bandaid, not really REST. Explanation of Roger Costello's example.

Arthur: better solution is to describe response as containing references to other services. Therefore, URL replacement ought to solve R085.

Scribe: JSchlimmer: are we enlarging our scope way too much? Some folks want to reduce scope, clean up stuff; others want to support all important web architectures.

Arthur: requirement to pass URLs not only a REST requirement.
... inclusion of pointer/reference mechanism represents a coming of age of language (programming language example, proposes analogy to service description language).

dbooth: quotes arch group definition of service, with possibility that references may not conform to def.

<dbooth> WSA Glossary: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/arch/glossary/wsa-glossary.html

Scribe: JSchlimmer: URL replacement broken. Pointers important. Question: if we had strongly-typed way of returning pointers (URLs), would that be sufficient for REST? Or would we still have work?

Arthur: can fix URL replacement by allowing things not to be bound to the URL. But that's only a hack because it isn't REST.
... in order to do REST, need to be able to identify URLs (pointers, services) in WSDL.
... using URL replacement, we have an undefined thing. If we say URL == service, then we know what they are.

Scribe: JSchlimmer: perhaps postpone URL replacement discussion until after R085? Arthur: agree.
... Jonathan: glad to put on agenda. Who's volunteering?
... ACTION: Arthur to bring discussion to group in two weeks (more or less) for solutions to R085
... URL replacement discussion to be deferred until resolution of R085 discussions.

Arthur: URL replacement should be modified such that not all params need be in URL; parts may be bound elsewhere. Philippe: already have proposal for that.

Scribe: Philippe discusses HTTP binding proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Mar/0068.html

Philippe: section 1.1 has a URL replacement mechanism which may address this issue directly. HTTP replacement mechanism.
... based on type of request (in HTTP), the binding of parameters may be bound into the query portion of the URL (for GET), or into the body (for POST).

Scribe: JSchlimmer: why is multiple reference of a component prohibited? Philippe: what's use case? JSchlimmer: dunno, is that why prohibited? Philippe: simpler to define; otherwise need syntax to leave things out.
... <silence />

Philippe: proposal gives max flexibility, with as few restrictions as possible (but there are some). Jonathan: will be syntax for specifying binding, order, etc. Philippe: yes, shouldn't be complicated, either.

Scribe: Discussion of how close this is to being ready for inclusion.
... Discussion of requests for outside review (Mark Baker, Paul Prescod).

<Philippe> Paul Prescod

Scribe: ACTION: Philippe to bring proposal to attention of M Baker, P Prescod, R Costello, forward responses to group
... Jonathan: no objections? So moved. Folks with concerns should read and comment.
... Jean-Jacques: would it be useful to have proposed syntax?
... ACTION: Philippe to supply some example syntax for HTTP binding proposal.
... Jonathan: does this satisfy the requirement of 'simple cleanup' suggested by Arthur for URL replacement? Or is there other cleanup that needs to be done?

Arthur: remaining issue is what to do with binary stuff.

<Gudge> wow, zakim is getting officious!

Arthur: need to handle mime types issue, such as how to send a request, get an image back.

Scribe: Further discussion of binary types, question of how to apply typing information (should it be done in abstract portion?).

Arthur: if schema could accurately describe binary types, then we don't need mime type support.

Scribe: Conference ended by administrative fiat.

Summary of Action Items

ACTION: Arthur to bring discussion to group in two weeks (more or less) for solutions to R085
ACTION: Arthur to coordinate work on WSDL validator
ACTION: Editors to include normative schema language in spec (conformance section?); schema to be separate, in TR space.
ACTION: Jonathan to respond to OWL with "no plans to review, no resources, little knowledge of why requested".
ACTION: Philippe to bring proposal to attention of M Baker, P Prescod, R Costello, forward responses to group
ACTION: Philippe to supply some example syntax for HTTP binding proposal.

Minutes formatted by David Booth's perl script: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
$Date: 2002/02/19 16:35:31 $