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Minutes for 7 November 2002 WS Description WG

From: Jonathan Marsh <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:24:11 -0800
Message-ID: <330564469BFEC046B84E591EB3D4D59C08843CEB@red-msg-08.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: <www-ws-desc@w3.org>

Minutes, 7 November 2002 WS Description WG telcon

Present:
 David Booth            W3C
 Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
 Glen Daniels           Macromedia
 Youenn Fablet          Canon
 Dietmar Gaertner       Software AG
 Tom Jordahl            Macromedia
 Philippe Le Hégaret    W3C
 Amelia Lewis           TIBCO
 Steve Lind             AT&T
 Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
 Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
 Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
 Don Mullen             Tibco
 Arthur Ryman           IBM
 Waqar Sadiq            Electronic Data Systems
 Adi Sakala             IONA Technologies
 Jeffrey Schlimmer      Microsoft
 Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
 Joyce Yang             Oracle
 
Regrets:
 Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
 Steve Graham           Global Grid Forum
 Jacek Kopecky          Systinet
 Sandeep Kumar          Cisco Systems
 Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
 William Stumbo         Xerox
 Jerry Thrasher         Lexmark
 Steve Tuecke           Global Grid Forum
 Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
 Don Wright             Lexmark
 Barbara Zengler        DaimlerChrysler Research and Technology

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Agenda [.1]

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0033.html

1.  Assign scribe: Glen Daniels

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2.  Approval of minutes of Oct 31 telcon [.1].  Kevin Liu had sent regrets, which I missed.

MINUTES APPROVED

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0010.html

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3.  Review of Action items.
FTF       2002-09-10: Gudge, jeffsch, roberto et al to write proposal
                      to replace message with complexType [due this week]
FTF       2002-09-10: Gudge to provide summary of using W3C XML Schema
                      to wrap other type systems at an appropriate level
                      of abstraction.
FTF       2002-09-11: Jeffrey, DonM to define TCP binding.
FTF       2002-09-19: Joyce, Sandeep, Igor, Steve T, Sanjiva, Adi,
                      Roberto, Amy to form task force to prepare
                      presentation on adding pub/sub as first class to
                      WSDL 1.2.
PENDING   2002-09-19: Sanjiva to write a Java binding.
FTF       2002-10-10: Gudge to prepare proposal for promoting operations
                      to the top level.
DONE      2002-10-17: Gudge and A. Lewis to make a proposal for
                      describing xs:import and (apparently) xs:schema 
                      as "required" extensibility elements.
DONE [.1] 2002-10-24: Jacek to provide commentary/response to Arthur's
                      identification by URI proposal.
DONE [.2] 2002-10-31: Arthur will redo proposal to get rid of urn:, also

                      look at XPointer framework.
DONE [.3] 2002-10-31: Jonathan will look at normalized unique namespaces. DONE [.4] 2002-10-31: Phillipe will follow up on what we must do about a
                      media type.

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0034.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0038.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0023.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0020.html

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4.  Administrivia
  a. Any last minute FTF logistical questions?

No telcon next Thursday
No telcon on Thanksgiving (28th)

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5.  FTF agenda [.1].
    Besides the current discussion topics, we should have time to go over some open issues.  Here are a set of candidates I came up with from the issues list at [.2].  Champions appreciated!

We'll have time for some issues - could we get some champions? (no, not Mike)

Type system issues:
  issue-allow-nonxml-typesystems
    Allow non-XML type systems?    
      (this is related to the schema-to-wrap-other-systems 
      discussion) NO PARTICULAR CHAMPION, WILL BE AFFECTED 
      BY GUDGE'S PROPOSAL

  issue-clarify-type-and-element
    Clarify use of type= and element= in part with XML Schema experts.
      Jonathan: Looking for a volunteer to clarify this
      Arthur steps up [Arthur: concerning the type vs element issue, 
      see Why <part element=...> Should be Dropped] [.3]

Naming issues:
  issue-operation-name-uniqueness
    Need to be able to distinguish between operations with the same 
    NCName in different portTypes    
  issue-fault-name-uniqueness
    Should faults be named with QNames?    
  issue-toplevel-element-name-uniqueness
    Should all top-level elements' names be unique across the 
    target namespace?    
There are advocates for these issues (David, Philippe)

Part 2 issues:
  Are there any issues we can tackle prior to the property/feature discussion?

None identified.

[Philippe: Arthur will not participate on Wednesday, JJM not on Monday. Sanjiva may drop by on Tuesday.]

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2002Nov/0005.html
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0055.html

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6.  New Issues.  Merged issues list [.1].
      None found.

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html

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7.  Managing extensions [.1].  Is a registry called for?  Philippe's summary of a related issue in WS Arch [.2], about WS-Security defining WSDL extensions [.3].  

(conversation about OASIS WS-Security TC, WSDL extensions, and which versions of which specs they're using)
Jonathan: Is this something we need to take a position on / deal with?
[dbooth: Here is David Orchard's draft message to OASIS WS-Security TC: [.3]]
Philippe: don't need to think about it until TC responds.
Jonathan: All we need is a statement that we're not currently working on extensions?
Joyce: if we have this in the email threads, that's enough

Do we want to participate in the arch group's statement to the TC?
Consensus: We just need to know about it, don't need to do anything else for now.

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0011.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0027.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Nov/0006.html 

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8.  WSDL media type registration.  Mark Baker's conclusion [.1]. Tag finding [.2], WG process guideline [.3].

conversation: We define a vocabulary, so we should follow the TAG finding and define a media type.
[Philippe: application/soap+xml: [.4]]
(discussion of limitation of "text" types being limited to US-ASCII or not)
Need someone to look into the "urban myth"ness of the limitation
[Philippe: if a text/xml entity is received with]
[Philippe: the charset parameter omitted, MIME processors and XML processors]
[DaleMober: from rfc 2046 text -- textual information. The subtype "plain" in particular indicates plain text containing no formatting commands or directives of any sort. Plain text is intended to be displayed "as-is". No special software is required to get the full meaning of the text, aside from support for the indicated character set. Other subtypes are to be used for enriched text in forms where application software may enhance the appearance of the te]
[Philippe: MUST use the default charset value of "us-ascii". [.5]]
Jonathan: we could just agree to do a media-type, either as an appendix or a separate spec, and describe there the issue of how to deal with text/application tension
JJM: No normative text in the IDraft anymore for SOAP1.2, pointer to SOAP appendix
[alewis: RFC 3023 appears to discuss all of the relevant issues surrounding the use of text/xml versus application/xml (and correspondingly application/xyzzy+xml). Issues are that text/xml defaults to US-ASCII, although the charset parameter is recommended to be UTF-8, which is supported. UTF-16 cannot be supported as a charset, it appears.]
[DaleMober: Whoever registers wsdl type should check [.6] section 7.1 through 8.x]

NO RESOLUTION, BUT WILL INVESTIGATE APPROPRIATENESS OF CHOICES/SOLUTIONS

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0009.html
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2002/0129-mime
[.3] http://www.w3.org/2002/06/registering-mediatype
[.4] http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/2/06/18/draft-baker-soap-media-reg-01.txt
[.5] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2376.txt
[.6] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3023.txt

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9.  Equivalence of Services [.1].

(Discussion of structural vs. named equivalence)
Jonathan to dig up use cases for various kinds of equivalence in archives, etc.
ACTION: Jonathan to dig up use cases for various kinds of equivalence in archives, etc. 

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/0151.html

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10.  Importing Schema into WSDL
    Two alternative proposals.  Two elements [.1] or one [.2]. 

COVER AT F2F

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/0067.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/0114.html

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11.  Identification of a Service [.1] / Arthur's [.2] identification proposal [.3].  Comparison with NUNs [.4].

COVER AT F2F

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2002Oct/0017.html
(members only)
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/0084.html
[.3]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/att-0084/01-URI-
References.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Nov/0023.html

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12. A slice at a proposal for SOAP features/properties in WSDL [.1]. Canon's change requests [.2].  Amy's comments [.3].  Tibco proposal
(revised) [.4].  Tibco SOAP email binding [.5].

Rest of agenda is dependent on feature proposal, or abstract model for P2

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0004.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0080.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/0104.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/0149.html
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/0126.html

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13. Rationale for dropping the <soap:body use=...> attribute [.1]
     Proposal from Jacek on better describing the extensibility mechanism to support other languages. [.2]

SKIPPED

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0054.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Oct/0040.html

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14. BindingType proposal from Kevin [.1].
      Awaiting further work on Part 2 AM.

SKIPPED

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Aug/0009.html

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15. Issue 2: SOAPAction has been deprecated, as of SOAP 1.2 [.1].
    Jean-Jacques proposal at [.2].
    Jacek's addendum at [.3].
    Dependent upon Glen's feature/property proposal.

SKIPPED

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x2
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0050.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0056.html

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16. Issue 28: transport='uri' [.1]
    Dependent upon Glen's feature/property proposal.

SKIPPED

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x28

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17. HTTP Binding Issues (6a, 41)
    Jeffrey recommends no change [.1].
    Sanjiva is mulling this over [.2].
    Dependent upon Glen's feature/property proposal.

SKIPPED

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jun/0102.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jul/0067.html

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18. Issue 25: Interaction between W3C XML Schema and SOAP Data Model 
    Gudge's explains at [.1], Roberto's options at [.2].
    Waiting for more detail in ACM?

SKIPPED

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jun/0186.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jul/0071.html


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Implementors should consider schedule constraints for discussion at F2F

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Received on Wednesday, 20 November 2002 13:25:16 GMT

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