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Re: Orchestration (was: W3C Web Service Description WG: Require ments)

From: Sanjiva Weerawarana <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:03:14 -0400
Message-ID: <000001c1e01b$811b3fb0$c2391e09@watson.ibm.com>
To: <www-ws-desc@w3.org>, <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
Hi Waqar,

I will be happy to help - I am involved with WSFL work in IBM and
hence am quite familiar with the requirements orchestration
places on WSDL.

Many of the issues that have been indicated against the WSDL
1.1 base spec are motivated by orchestration needs. That list
will be be posted to the public list very shortly.

Sanjiva.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sadiq, Waqar" <waqar.sadiq@eds.com>
To: "Jonathan Marsh" <jmarsh@microsoft.com>; <www-ws-desc@w3.org>;
<www-ws-arch@w3.org>
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 3:01 PM
Subject: RE: Orchestration (was: W3C Web Service Description WG: Require
ments)


>
> I would be happy to do that but am not sure how much time I might be able
to
> devote to it.  It would be great if somebody else can lend me a hand
there.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Waqar Sadiq
>
> EDS EIT ESAI - Enterprise Consultant
> MS: H3-4C-22
> 5400 Legacy Drive
> Plano, Texas 75024
>
> phone: +01-972-797-8408 (8-837)
> e-mail: waqar.sadiq@eds.com
> fax: +01-972-605-4071
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Marsh [mailto:jmarsh@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 11:59 AM
> To: www-ws-desc@w3.org; www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Subject: RE: Orchestration (was: W3C Web Service Description WG:
> Requirements)
>
> Here are my two cents, and attempt to focus this thread into concrete
> action.
>
> As pointed out, orchestration is clearly outside the scope of our
> charter.  Making sure the WS description language has adequate hooks or
> extensibility to enable composition and orchestration is in scope.
>
> At this stage, we are collecting requirements, use cases, and issues
> against WSDL 1.1.  Analysis of WSCL and orchestration needs can inform
> each of those efforts.  I'd encourage anyone somewhat familiar with WSCL
> and orchestration in general to analyze the requirements and use cases
> and provide comments and corrections.  More particular comments or
> design ideas can be tracked as issues.  Do I have volunteers for this
> task?
>
> PS - switching to the public list, since that's where this thread really
> belongs, and all the information is already public.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Krishna Sankar [mailto:ksankar@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 11:31 AM
> > To: 'Web Services Private'; www-ws-arch@w3.org
> > Subject: RE: Orchestration (was: W3C Web Service Description WG:
> Requireme
> > nts)
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Even though I cannot disagree on "orchestration as a form of
> > composition", I would put orchestration in the execution of web
> > services. Remember, a web service might not know the orchestration
> when
> > it is composed - for a variety of reasons incl the fact that
> > orchestration would change depending on the output of the execution.
> >
> > IMHO, the *architecture* should consider and provide for
> > orchestration; the WSDL should also provide "hooks"  for
> orchestration.
> > One reason I see is the propagation of context and state which helps
> > orchestration, another one is at least a place holder for
> orchestration
> > related metadata like the engine URI. The WSDL cannot assume that a
> web
> > service starts and end by itself with out any colloboration and effect
> > on other "related" services.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> >  | -----Original Message-----
> >  | From: w3c-ws-desc-request@w3.org
> >  | [mailto:w3c-ws-desc-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Mischkinsky
> >  | Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 10:55 AM
> >  | To: Sadiq, Waqar; Jean-Jacques Moreau; Jeffrey Schlimmer
> >  | Cc: Web Services Private; Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com; www-ws-arch@w3.org
> >  | Subject: RE: Orchestration (was: W3C Web Service Description
> >  | WG: Requireme nts)
> >  |
> >  |
> >  | The charter for the WSDWG specifically says that composition of web
> >  | services is out of scope. I don't think it's a particularly
> >  | big stretch to
> >  | regard "orchestration" as a form of composition.
> >  |
> >  |    jeff
> >  | At 07:05 AM 4/5/02, Sadiq, Waqar wrote:
> >  |
> >  |
> >  | >I am cross-posting this to the architecture group also.  I
> >  | personally
> >  | >believe that a description language and orchestration
> >  | language belong to
> >  | >different stacks in the web services reference model (none
> >  | exists yet).
> >  | >
> >  | >I believe that orchestration layer adds a level of business
> >  | intelligence
> >  | >that leverages the web services layer (described by WSDL)
> >  | but the two are
> >  | >not the same.
> >  | >
> >  | >I vote to defer WSCL to the architecture group for
> >  | consideration and not
> >  | >change the scope of what we are doing with WSDL.
> >  | >
> >  | >Thanks,
> >  | >
> >  | >
> >  | >_______________________________________________
> >  | >Waqar Sadiq
> >  | >
> >  | >EDS EIT ESAI - Enterprise Consultant
> >  | >MS: H3-4C-22
> >  | >5400 Legacy Drive
> >  | >Plano, Texas 75024
> >  | >
> >  | >phone: +01-972-797-8408 (8-837)
> >  | >e-mail: waqar.sadiq@eds.com
> >  | >fax: +01-972-605-4071
> >  | >_______________________________________________
> >  | >
> >  | >
> >  | >
> >  | >-----Original Message-----
> >  | >From: Jean-Jacques Moreau [mailto:moreau@crf.canon.fr]
> >  | >Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 2:18 AM
> >  | >To: Jeffrey Schlimmer
> >  | >Cc: Web Services Private; Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com
> >  | >Subject: Orchestration (was: W3C Web Service Description
> >  | WG: Requirements)
> >  | >
> >  | >[Switching to w3c-ws-desc, since this may touch on member
> >  | confidential
> >  | >issues.]
> >  | >
> >  | >Orchestration brings the question: what are we supposed to
> >  | do with WSCL [1]?
> >  | >This does not seem to be considered out-of-scope [2], and
> >  | the team's comment
> >  | >was that it should be brought to our attention [3]. Does
> >  | this indicate a
> >  | >possible refinent for operations?
> >  | >
> >  | >Jean-Jacques.
> >  | >
> >  | >[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/wscl10/
> >  | >[2] http://www.w3.org/2002/01/ws-desc-charter
> >  | >[3] http://www.w3.org/Submission/2002/02/Comment
> >  | >
> >  | >Jeffrey Schlimmer wrote:
> >  | >
> >  | > > R097: I'd suggest change it to "Must". (Now, this is NOT
> >  | covered by
> >  | > > R036!)
> >  | > > [jeffsch: I agree that this is part of a general Web
> >  | Service definition,
> >  | > > but I don't agree that this is appropriate to describe
> >  | in WSDL; it seems
> >  | > > to border on orchestration.]
> >  | > >
> >  | > > -- Igor Sedukhin .. (Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com)
> >  |
> >  | --
> >  | Jeff Mischkinsky                    jeff.mischkinsky@oracle.com
> >  | Consulting Member Technical Staff   +1(650)506-1975 (voice)
> >  | Oracle Corporation                  +1(650)506-7225 (fax)
> >  | 400 Oracle Parkway, M/S 4OP960
> >  | Redwood Shores, CA 94065 USA
> >  |
> >  |
Received on Tuesday, 9 April 2002 19:11:41 GMT

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