W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-ws-arch@w3.org > October 2002

Explicit Ordering, was RE: Definition of Choreography

From: David Orchard <dorchard@bea.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:22:52 -0700
To: "'Mathews, Walden'" <walden.mathews@tfn.com>, <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
Message-ID: <020301c27937$8372b490$5f1e11ac@beasys.com>

Walden,

Of course J2EE platforms offer declarative transactions and security, whilst
offering JSP pages.  That's because no 1 solution is right for everything.
My point was that if you want to target a certain skill-set of user, you use
different syntaxes.  I opine that there are MANY more people that actively
author JSP pages than are those that administer complex security realms.
And plus all the security people have been trained to think in terms of
Assertions :-)

Cheers,
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org]On
> Behalf Of Mathews, Walden
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 3:19 PM
> To: 'David Orchard '; 'www-ws-arch@w3.org '
> Subject: RE: Definition of Choreography
>
>
>
> David,
>
> >This is a classic religious argument.  In the same way there are
> >religious
> >battles over big-endian vs little-endian, strongly-typed vs
> >weakly-typed,
> >interpreted vs compiled, etc., there will be battles of "condition
> >based" vs
> >"explicit ordering".
>
> That can be said of any argument that avoids specific test cases,
> but for this argument, the invitations for test cases have been
> issued already.  There is a ball in someone's court...
>
>
>
> >While it is certainly true that condition based
> >can
> >meet all the ordering requirements, there is an issue around
> usability.
> >For
> >example, I think coding up JSPs (explicit ordering) is about twice as
> >easy
> >as XSLT (mostly condition based).  And I also have a metric
> that every
> >time
> >you double the complexity, you lose 90% of the developers.
>
> You're assuming that "easy" means "simple" here, but it doesn't.  JSP
> is easier because of habit, not because it's simpler.  The
> mental skills
> for declarative specification are probably lacking some in
> the workforce.
> But I find it ironic that the same platform that brings you JSP also
> offers things like "declarative transaction" and "declarative
> security",
> which are what you call condition-based forms of specification.
>
> So, there's at least a tradeoff to consider: simpler but less
> intuitive
> specifications - or - unmanageably complex specifications for
> a workforce
> that can go on with its current set of skills.  (Who wants to
> go on with
> just their *current* set of skills?!?)
>
> Any programmer who's learned SQL has already more than half bridged
> the gap you're concerned about, I think (provided they can accomplish
> work on databased without using cursors ;-).
>
> Walden Mathews
>
>
Received on Monday, 21 October 2002 15:29:20 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Tuesday, 3 July 2007 12:25:09 GMT