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Re: Words for the Triangles

From: <jones@research.att.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:34:35 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <200210011734.NAA11978@bual.research.att.com>
To: chrisfer@us.ibm.com, www-ws-arch@w3.org

+1

Mark Jones
AT&T

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	From: "Christopher B Ferris" <chrisfer@us.ibm.com>
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	David,

	While I appreciate the sentiment of your comments, I feel compelled to 
	disagree that we can just label the top role "The Web" and be done with 
	it.

	To put a cosmology spin on the issue, there's an awful lot of "dark 
	matter"
	that comprises the Web that is effectively "invisible". By this I refer to
	the beellions (well, maybe not, but Carl Sagan would be proud:-) of orphan 

	Web resources that are not linked from any other resource
	and which are not the default Web page for a given origin server
	such that they might be discovered by a Web 'bot on a 5 year mission to 
	seek out
	new Web resources; to boldly go where no 'bot has gone before. Even
	Google does not know of their identity, yet they exist none the less and 
	may
	be quite unaware that they are the equivalent of cosmological "dark 
	matter".

	There is more to making a Web resource discoverable via the Web than
	simply making the resource available via the Web. Whether the
	"registry" is merely a site map, the default Web page for an
	origin server containing links to other resources which contain
	links..., or a UDDI or ebXML registry, there needs to be some
	action taken that makes a given resource discoverable via the Web.

	The action can be implicit or explicit, but it MUST be recognized in the
	architecture. I believe this action to be the act of registering with, or 
	publishing to ,
	a "registry", even if that "registry" is merely a collection of links off 
	the
	default page of an origin server.

	Further more, a Web service may have good reason to engage with a
	particular class or instance of a discovery agency:
	        - make my presence known only within my enterprise
	        - make my presence known external to my enterprise
	        - limit awareness of my presence to the secret society of foobar

	I am also happy with "discovery agencies" if "registry" is too overloaded 
	a term.

	Cheers,

	Christopher Ferris
	Architect, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
	email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
	phone: +1 508 234 3624

	David Booth wrote on 09/30/2002 07:26:44 PM:

	> 
	> 
	> Heather Kreger <kreger@us.ibm.com> on Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:54:16 -0400 
	writes:
	> >No, you do not discover from the web. Google discovers from the Web. 
	Then
	> >he records it in his registry. THEN you discover from Google,  which is
	> >searching his - gasp - registry. So, you are discovering from a 
	registry. 
	> >. . .
	> 
	> Well, yes, that is a legitimate one way to look at it, but I certainly 
	do 
	> not think of it that way.
	> 
	> To me, Google and other tools are simply my MEANS of discovery -- not 
	the 
	> desired end point of my discovery.  Google, Yahoo, email, and postcards 
	and 
	> billboards with URIs on them are all means that I use to find what's on 
	the 
	> Web.  Google just helps me to find it by suggesting a URL, but I get the 

	> information that I seek from the Web -- I don't get it from Google.  All 
	I 
	> get from Google are suggestions for where I should look.
	> 
	> To me, the top cloud in the triangle diagram is simply the Web -- that 
	> universal space where you can put information and get information.  And 
	a 
	> UDDI registry is certainly a part of that space.  A Web Service 
	publicizes 
	> its information (somehow), and a Client finds that information 
	> (somehow).  But they don't have to use a common "registry" to do so 
	(unless 
	> you wish to call the entire Web a "registry", but I think that would be 
	> rather disingenuous).  The only thing they have to have in common is the 

	> Web: One places the information on the Web and the other finds it.
	> 
	> 
	> -- 
	> David Booth
	> W3C Fellow / Hewlett-Packard
	> Telephone: +1.617.253.1273
	> 

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	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">David,</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">While I appreciate the sentiment of
	your comments, I feel compelled to </font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">disagree that we can just label the
	top role &quot;The Web&quot; and be done with it.</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">To put a cosmology spin on the issue,
	there's an awful lot of &quot;dark matter&quot;</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">that comprises the Web that is effectively
	&quot;invisible&quot;. By this I refer to</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">the beellions (well, maybe not, but
	Carl Sagan would be proud:-) of orphan </font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Web resources that are not linked from
	any other resource</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">and which are not the default Web page
	for a given origin server</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">such that they might be discovered by
	a Web 'bot on a 5 year mission to seek out</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">new Web resources; to boldly go where
	no 'bot has gone before. Even</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Google does not know of their identity,
	yet they exist none the less and may</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">be quite unaware that they are the equivalent
	of cosmological &quot;dark matter&quot;.</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">There is more to making a Web resource
	discoverable via the Web than</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">simply making the resource available
	via the Web. Whether the</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&quot;registry&quot; is merely a site
	map, the default Web page for an</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">origin server containing links to other
	resources which contain</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">links..., or a UDDI or ebXML registry,
	there needs to be some</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">action taken that makes a given resource
	discoverable via the Web.</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The action can be implicit or explicit,
	but it MUST be recognized in the</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">architecture. I believe this action
	to be the act of registering with, or publishing to ,</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">a &quot;registry&quot;, even if that
	&quot;registry&quot; is merely a collection of links off the</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">default page of an origin server.</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Further more, a Web service may have
	good reason to engage with a</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">particular class or instance of a discovery
	agency:</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -
	make my presence known only within my enterprise</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -
	make my presence known external to my enterprise</font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -
	limit awareness of my presence to the secret society of foobar</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I am also happy with &quot;discovery
	agencies&quot; if &quot;registry&quot; is too overloaded </font>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">a term.</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Cheers,</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Christopher Ferris<br>
	Architect, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture<br>
	email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com<br>
	phone: +1 508 234 3624</font>
	<br>
	<br><font size=2><tt>David Booth wrote on 09/30/2002 07:26:44 PM:<br>
	<br>
	&gt; <br>
	&gt; <br>
	&gt; Heather Kreger &lt;kreger@us.ibm.com&gt; on Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:54:16
	-0400 writes:<br>
	&gt; &gt;No, you do not discover from the web. Google discovers from the
	Web. Then<br>
	&gt; &gt;he records it in his registry. THEN you discover from Google,
	&nbsp;which is<br>
	&gt; &gt;searching his - gasp - registry. So, you are discovering from
	a registry. <br>
	&gt; &gt;. . .<br>
	&gt; <br>
	&gt; Well, yes, that is a legitimate one way to look at it, but I certainly
	do <br>
	&gt; not think of it that way.<br>
	&gt; <br>
	&gt; To me, Google and other tools are simply my MEANS of discovery --
	not the <br>
	&gt; desired end point of my discovery. &nbsp;Google, Yahoo, email, and
	postcards and <br>
	&gt; billboards with URIs on them are all means that I use to find what's
	on the <br>
	&gt; Web. &nbsp;Google just helps me to find it by suggesting a URL, but
	I get the <br>
	&gt; information that I seek from the Web -- I don't get it from Google.
	&nbsp;All I <br>
	&gt; get from Google are suggestions for where I should look.<br>
	&gt; <br>
	&gt; To me, the top cloud in the triangle diagram is simply the Web --
	that <br>
	&gt; universal space where you can put information and get information.
	&nbsp;And a <br>
	&gt; UDDI registry is certainly a part of that space. &nbsp;A Web Service
	publicizes <br>
	&gt; its information (somehow), and a Client finds that information <br>
	&gt; (somehow). &nbsp;But they don't have to use a common &quot;registry&quot;
	to do so (unless <br>
	&gt; you wish to call the entire Web a &quot;registry&quot;, but I think
	that would be <br>
	&gt; rather disingenuous). &nbsp;The only thing they have to have in common
	is the <br>
	&gt; Web: One places the information on the Web and the other finds it.<br>
	&gt; <br>
	&gt; <br>
	&gt; -- <br>
	&gt; David Booth<br>
	&gt; W3C Fellow / Hewlett-Packard<br>
	&gt; Telephone: +1.617.253.1273<br>
	&gt; <br>
	</tt></font>
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Received on Tuesday, 1 October 2002 13:35:25 GMT

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