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RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence

From: <michael.mahan@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:11:14 -0500
Message-ID: <5C76D29CD0FA3143896D08BB1743296A072C33@bsebe001.NOE.Nokia.com>
To: <abbieb@nortelnetworks.com>, <anne@manes.net>, <VINOSKI@iona.com>
Cc: <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
Abbie, 

I think you hit upon the mechanism to get some traction on a goal! I would like to comment
on the below discussion. 

>Discussion -2:
>-------------------
>
>I really do think that the requirement of platform independence does contradict the above design goal.
>In my view designing for platform independence must be consistant with D-AG011. So in this regard, D-AG011 
>can feed into D-AG004.


I still have concerns about goal 4 versus goal 11. For convenience:

AG0004: "ensures platform independence of web services components in a way that does not preclude 
any programming model nor assume any particular mode of communication between the individual 
components"

AG0011: "is consistent with the existing web and its heterogenous environment and distributed 
architecture to the greatest extent possible"


My comments:

1. Goal AG0004 covers platform independence. How is this different from heterogeneous 
environment language of goal AG0011? I still believe these are essentially 2 different wordings
for the same thing. So, I too believe there is no contradiction, just redundancy.

2. I think the central theme/desire of goal 4 is independence of programming models and independence of 
communication modes. I think the goal is assuming that platform independence helps acheive this. However,
platform independence does not guarantee independent models or communications. 

3. Platform independence is essentially the same concept as heterogeneous environment; and thus is a big 
part of being 'consistent' with the existing web. Hence I think AG0004 should be re-written to focus on 
independent programming models and independent communications.

Mike Mahan, Nokia



-----Original Message-----
From: ext Abbie Barbir [mailto:abbieb@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: March 19, 2002 01:57 PM
To: Anne Thomas Manes; Vinoski, Stephen
Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence


Please note that JAVA was used only as an example !!!!!!!

It is not the only way.

ps: AT least I am getting some traffic now, that is good ??????

abbie

-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Thomas Manes [mailto:anne@manes.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 12:29 PM
To: Barbir, Abbie [CAR:1A00:EXCH]; Vinoski, Stephen
Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence


I agree with Steve. I think that we need to avoid requiring the details or object model of Java or any language.

Web services are platform independent and language independent simply because we don't attempt to specify the mappings between XML and language semantics.

All Web service specifications are defined using XML, and all data types are specified as XML types. It's up to the implementors to map those types to language types. For the Java community, the JCP is defining standard type mappings as part of JAX-RPC. Microsoft is defining the type mappings for the .NET community. I recommend that we continue to let the language communities define their own language type mappings.

Anne
-----Original Message-----
From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Abbie Barbir
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:30 AM
To: Vinoski, Stephen
Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence


steve,

this why the work like JAVA, as opposed just JAVA.

cheers

-----Original Message-----
From: Vinoski, Stephen [mailto:VINOSKI@iona.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:28 AM
To: Barbir, Abbie [CAR:1A00:EXCH]
Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence


Supporting heterogeneity requires supporting multiple programming and scripting languages. Stating that we need to "adopt the use of platform independent languages such as Java" to help ensure that we allow for the use of multiple programming models is a bit of an oxymoron. For true platform and language independence, we must avoid requiring the details or object model of Java or any other programming language to "show through" at the Web Services level.

--steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Abbie Barbir [mailto:abbieb@nortelnetworks.com]  
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 10:49 AM
To: michael.mahan@nokia.com; Austin.D@ic.grainger.com
Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org; Christopher Ferris
Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence


Mike and all,

Per the last teleconference call D-AG004 is still open and must be closed by the next call.
In this e-mail I attempt to close the issues regarding the design Goal.
The goal as stated 
" 
D-AG0004 
ensures platform independence of web services components in a way that does not preclude any programming model nor assume any particular mode of communication between the individual components 
"
In my original e-mail I have riased some issues regarding the goal, but unfortunatly I did not get good track.

So here are my $.002,

Discussion:
------------------

In order to ensure platform independence, we need the following:
1. Adopt the use of platform independent languages such as JAVA. 
2. Have very well defined interfaces to web components that are general and could be invoked using appropriate protocols.
3. Try to use XML and other markup techniques that ensures the ability to invoke web components using variaty of protocols.


The design goal can coexist with D-AG0003: is sufficiently extensible and  with D-AG0005:provides simplicity and ease-of-use that does not impose high barriers to entry for users of web services. In my opnion, the appropriate designs for platform independence interfaces can help the above two stated golas.


Furtheremore, Some issues were raised regarding the interdependecne of D-AG004 and D-AG011. Here D-AG011 is restated:

CURRENT GOAL STATEMENT: 
Web Services are consistent with the existing web and its heterogenous environment and distributed architecture to the greatest extent possible.

Discussion -2:
-------------------

I really do think that the requirement of platform independence does contradict the above design goal. In my view designing for platform independence must be consistant with D-AG011. So in this regard, D-AG011 can feed into D-AG004.

Crtitical Success Factors:
----------------------------------

The design goal can be achieved through the insistance on using platform independent development tools and languages such as XML and JAVA. The interfaces to web components must also be properly designed.

Derived Requirements:
--------------------------------
1. Consistent definition of web components
2. Good definition of web components Interfaces.
3. Use XML based protocols for invoking the web components.


Current Recommendation:
--------------------------------------
The goal should stay as written


cheers
abbie




-----Original Message-----
From: michael.mahan@nokia.com [mailto:michael.mahan@nokia.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:48 AM
To: Austin.D@ic.grainger.com; Barbir, Abbie [CAR:1A00:EXCH]
Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence


Hi Abbie,

In message [1], I questioned whether platform independence goal is separate from D-AG0011. Can you comment on that.

Thx, Mike


[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Mar/0181.html
-----Original Message-----
From: ext Austin, Daniel [mailto:Austin.D@ic.grainger.com]
Sent: March 12, 2002 05:41 PM
To: 'Abbie Barbir'
Cc: 'www-ws-arch@w3.org'
Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence


Hi Abbie,

    The text of this goal was quoted directly from the group charter, so we have to be careful about amending it. But I think these are good questions. What are the answers?

Regards,

D-
-----Original Message-----
From: Abbie Barbir [mailto:abbieb@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:19 PM
To: www-ws-arch@w3.org
Cc: Abbie Barbir
Subject: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence




This message kicks off discussion on goal 4, "ensures platform independence of web services" 
Please comment on goal wording, success factors, relation to other goals, etc. 
The goal as stated 
" 
D-AG0004 
ensures platform independence of web services components in a way that does not preclude any programming model nor assume any particular mode of communication between the individual components 
" 
Discussion: 
-------------- 
I think that the goal as stated provides a nobel idea that software designers would like to comply with. However, it seems to me that 
1. A proper definition of the term components must be provided, where the line would be drawn on where and how the platform idependence could be achieved.
2. In addition, does plateform independence means the independence from the actual operating system and/or programming language. 
3. In order to be able not to preclude any programming model, what kind of interface do we assume for web services components?
4. In order not to assume any mode of communications between the individual components, how would data be exchanged (if need be ?)

Other issues: 
------------- 
5. Is this redundant with D-AG0003: is sufficiently extensible to allow for future evolution of technology and of business goals 
 when combined with D-AG0005:provides simplicity and ease-of-use that does not impose high barriers to entry for users of web services 
Critical success factors 
------------------------ 
How platform independence could be measured, verified and achieved? and who will verify that? 
cheers 
abbie 
Received on Tuesday, 19 March 2002 15:14:39 GMT

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