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RE: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps

From: David Orchard <david.orchard@bea.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:38:26 -0800
To: "'Vinoski, Stephen'" <steve.vinoski@iona.com>, "'Anne Thomas Manes'" <anne@manes.net>
Cc: <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
Message-ID: <001901c1cbb5$9fc71cb0$420ba8c0@beasys.com>
MessageThis is clearly off the topic of technology gaps, but a very
important issue for us to discuss.  Perhaps the subject line should be
"recommending specifications process".  I agree that we don't want to
replicate existing work.  However, the W3C has NEVER rubber stamped outside
works.   Companies that weren't involved in the specification writing tend
to voice cocern on AC forum when it comes time for voting on charters.

We didn't do it with SOAP 1.1 or WSDL 1.1, why would this suddenly change?
I point out that WSDL had almost 30 cosubmitters and has at least 7
commercial implementations that were at the latest SOAP builders interop.

Now let's look at the SAML example.  I speak from some experience as I was
active in the effort.  SAML is probably one of the better candidates for
some kind of recommendation by the wsa.  SAML covers a number of areas, some
of which are interesting to XML based Web Services and some which aren't.
For example, SAML has a browser-binding for browser single sign-on.  My
guess is that this is not something that we would want in ws-sec 1.0.
Further, SAML has a variety of queries, like attributes, authentications,
authorizations.  Which of these are needed for ws-sec 1.0?

That covers the modularity issue.  Now what about specific features
deficits?  Say the WSAWG has a specific recommendation on a
change/fix/enhancement that would be necessary for recommendation.  We would
clearly need to liase with them on these issues.  An example feature tha
SAML doesn't cover is performing credential transmission, and that seems
needed for web services security.

My point is really that I doubt that simply recommending another spec will
be sufficient.  I'm becoming convinced we will have to charter a particular
set of people, either through a new working group or a liaison effort, to
accomplish the delivery of something that is reasonable for our specific
needs.  I'd like to be wrong on this one BTW.

I also want to re-emphasize that I totally believe that we should not
re-invent the wheel and we should re-use "where appropriate".
<curmudgeon>But I have repeatedly found in the past that re-use is rarely a
simple matter, and often takes more time than one expects.  </curmudgeon>

Cheers,
Dave
  -----Original Message-----
  From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org]On
Behalf Of Vinoski, Stephen
  Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:24 AM
  To: Anne Thomas Manes
  Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
  Subject: RE: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps


  I fully agree with Anne on this.

  --steve
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Anne Thomas Manes [mailto:anne@manes.net]
    Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:22 AM
    To: www-ws-arch@w3.org
    Subject: RE: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps


    I don't think we can limit ourselves to W3C technologies. We should also
reference other standard specifications.

    Let's look at a real example: SAML.

    It's an OASIS standard. I don't think that we want to replicate this
work. We should reference this work. When you want to pass security
assertions, you should use SAML to represent them. What we (a W3C ws-sec WG)
will have to do is specify a SOAP extension that specifies how these
assertions should be carried in a SOAP message.

    Regards,
    Anne
      -----Original Message-----
      From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org]On
Behalf Of Yin Leng Husband
      Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 6:46 AM
      To: Austin, Daniel; 'Damodaran, Suresh'; 'David Orchard';
www-ws-arch@w3.org
      Subject: RE: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps


      I have tried to capture the points raised below, into a previous
proposal, in the following

      "identify architectural and technology gaps that prevent
interoperability;

       identify existing W3C technologies that support interoperability;

      and recommend formation of working groups to formulate new,

      or to standardize existing, specifications or technologies for

       filling the gaps".



      Comments?



      Regards,
      Yin Leng




      -----Original Message-----
      From: Austin, Daniel [mailto:Austin.D@ic.grainger.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, 13 March 2002 8:47 AM
      To: 'Damodaran, Suresh'; 'David Orchard'; www-ws-arch@w3.org
      Subject: RE: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps



      Hi All,

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Damodaran, Suresh [mailto:Suresh_Damodaran@stercomm.com]
        Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:55 PM
        To: 'David Orchard'; www-ws-arch@w3.org
        Subject: RE: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps

        David,



        Interesting you say that "if we find an existing spec that fits our
bill, we're going to have to charter up a WG to deal with it"

        Is this the way W3C has always done business?
        [Austin, Daniel]



        I think W3C has tried to minimize the number of new standards under
discussion at any one time. There is only so much bandwidth and resources
available.



        While, I am inclined to think we can/should keep this option open, I
can think of other approaches as well.

        - working jointly with another standards organization (e.g., IETF)

        - creating liaisons with other standards committees and
organizations (I don't know of any example from W3C

        off hand, somebody in the list may) so that the other standards
organization would coordinate their work with W3C
        [Austin, Daniel]



        Examples would be the W3C-WAP Forum co-ordination group and the
Voice Browser-VXML Forum co-ordination group.



        as for conformance, etc.
        [Austin, Daniel]



        We should define what conformance means and let other groups e.g.
WS-I develop the testing technology and do the verification.



        I tried to create a sentence that captures all this as a goal
statement, but I couldn't (apologies)



        Cheers,

        -Suresh





          -----Original Message-----
          From: David Orchard [mailto:david.orchard@bea.com]
          Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 3:59 PM
          To: www-ws-arch@w3.org
          Subject: RE: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps

          I was wondering how this would come up...



          What does it mean for the WG to recommend existing standards?
Would a W3C Note (which isn't a standard) count?



          What if some tweaking of the spec is required for standardization,
say converting soap-sec into ws-sec and changing the namespace name?  Is the
WSA group going to do the nuts and bolts dirty work on re-using existing
stuff - like writing conformance test suites, publication schedules,
conversion to xmlspec dtd etc.?  There's a fair bit of work just doing
errata.  I would think we don't want to burden the WSA with this.



          I think that even if we find an existing spec that fits our bill,
we're going to have to charter up a WG to deal with it.



          How about "Identify architectural and technology gaps that prevent
interoperability to formulate standards-based remedies;  formation of new
working groups to standardize new or existing specifications or
technologies." ?



          Cheers,

          Dave



            -----Original Message-----
            From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org
[mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Yin Leng Husband
            Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 6:08 PM
            To: Prasad Yendluri; Yin Leng Husband
            Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
            Subject: RE: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps

            This is a good point.  In fact, the charter says

            "The Working Group should also identify what existing W3C
technologies already address functions required by the architecture
identified."

            I wanted to avoid a discussion over *whose* existing standards
and technologies at this point of high-level requirements

            identification.  Therefore I took the path that in order to
identify gaps, existing technologies would be flushed out during the
process.



            Regards,
            Yin Leng




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Prasad Yendluri [mailto:pyendluri@webmethods.com]
              Sent: Friday, 8 March 2002 11:33 AM
              To: Yin Leng Husband
              Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
              Subject: Re: D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps

              This is good point. However I think we should recommend
existing standards wherever available to avoid re-inventing. How about
something on the lines:

              "Identify architectural and technology gaps that prevent
interoperability to formulate standards-based remedies;  recommending
existing standards and technologies where available and formation of new
working groups where none available."

              Regards, Prasad

              -------- Original Message --------

                    Subject:
                   D-AG0016 - Technology Gaps

                    Resent-Date:
                   Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:14:38 -0500 (EST)

                    Resent-From:
                   www-ws-arch@w3.org

                    Date:
                   Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:22:11 +1000

                    From:
                   Yin Leng Husband <Yin-Leng.Husband@compaq.com>

                    To:
                   www-ws-arch@w3.org


               I've taken an action item to drive DAG0016- Technology Gaps
requirement discussion.
                The current proposed wording is
               "DAG0016
               [The Working Group will also act to] identify current gaps in
architectural interoperability and recommend standards-based remedies".

                As this architecture group is clearly chartered not to
design the gap technologies itself, I would like to suggest changing
to"identify architectural and technology gaps that prevent interoperability;
and recommend formation of new working groups to formulate standards-based
remedies".

                 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


              Yin Leng
Received on Thursday, 14 March 2002 19:10:33 GMT

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