W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-ws-arch@w3.org > March 2002

RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."]

From: Vinoski, Stephen <steve.vinoski@iona.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 07:14:13 -0500
Message-ID: <4F4A31A61D72604FAF84C29C8EA28481189455@amereast-ems1.IONAGLOBAL.COM>
To: "Krishna Sankar" <ksankar@cisco.com>
Cc: <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
Note that the definition does not deny direct human involvement. It
states only that direct human involvement is not required, which is not
the same as saying that it's not allowed.

--steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Krishna Sankar [mailto:ksankar@cisco.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 12:08 AM
> To: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."]
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 	Two amendments :
> 
> 	1.	What does the "through an application 
> programming interface capable of
> being described," buy us ? Why not just "capable of being described by
> standard formats" ?
> 
> 	2.	Why specifically deny direct human involvement 
> ? Do we care who (or
> what) interacts so long as the interactions are 
> internet-based protocols ?
> 
> 	IMHO,
> 	 "A web service is a software application or component 
> identified by a URI,
> whose interfaces and binding are capable of being described 
> by standard
> formats and supports direct interactions with other software 
> applications or
> components via internet-based protocols".
> 
> 	As Heather says, OK, everyone can open fire now. :-)
> 
> cheers & have a nice weekend
> 
>  | -----Original Message-----
>  | From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org]On
>  | Behalf Of Vinoski, Stephen
>  | Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 5:08 PM
>  | To: James M Snell
>  | Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
>  | Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."]
>  |
>  |
>  | OK, James, if we take your inputs along with those of 
> Heather, Mark, and
>  | others, and apply them to my original strawman definition including
>  | Mark's amendment, we get:
>  |
>  | "A web service is a software application or component 
> identified by a
>  | URI that, through an application programming interface 
> capable of being
>  | described, supports direct interactions with other 
> software applications
>  | or components via internet-based protocols, where said 
> interactions do
>  | not require direct human involvement."
>  |
>  | Are we there? :-)
>  |
>  | --steve
>  |
>  |
>  | > -----Original Message-----
>  | > From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@us.ibm.com]
>  | > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 6:21 PM
>  | > To: Vinoski, Stephen
>  | > Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
>  | > Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."]
>  | >
>  | >
>  | > Stephen,
>  | >
>  | > We actually are on the same page here.  We both seem to agree
>  | > that yes,
>  | > Web services can be described and discovered, but we disagree
>  | > whether or
>  | > not those properties need to be called out explicitly in the
>  | > definition.
>  | > You seem to be saying no, I'm saying yes they do.  The reason
>  | > is the same
>  | > as why we explicitly define Web resources as having unique URI
>  | > identifiers.  Of course Web resources have identifiers,
>  | > they're objects
>  | > and all objects have identifiers -- of what use is it to
>  | > explicitly call
>  | > out that point?  The answer is that by stating the fact, 
> we lay the
>  | > groundwork for standardizing how those identifiers are created,
>  | > represented, communicated, etc.  We're basically stating that Web
>  | > resources need to have a standardized method of
>  | > identification.  For Web
>  | > Services, explicitly calling out description and discovery as
>  | > properties
>  | > of a Web service indicate that there needs to be standardized
>  | > mechanisms
>  | > for description and discovery -- regardless of whether or not
>  | > every Web
>  | > service actually implements those standards.  Because a Web
>  | > Service can be
>  | > described and discovered, the overall Web Services
>  | > Architecture needs to
>  | > take into account standardized mechanisms for description and
>  | > discovery.
>  | > I'm not saying we have to create such standards here, just
>  | > acknowledge
>  | > their existence and role.  Make sense?
>  | >
>  | > - James M Snell/Fresno/IBM
>  | >     Web services architecture and strategy
>  | >     Internet Emerging Technologies, IBM
>  | >     544.9035 TIE line
>  | >     559.587.1233 Office
>  | >     919.486.0077 Voice Mail
>  | >     jasnell@us.ibm.com
>  | >  Programming Web Services With SOAP, O'reilly & Associates, ISBN
>  | > 0596000952
>  | >
>  | > ==
>  | > Have I not commanded you?  Be strong and courageous.  Do not
>  | > be terrified,
>  | >
>  | > do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you
>  | > wherever you
>  | > go.
>  | > - Joshua 1:9
>  | >
>  | > To:     James M Snell/Fresno/IBM@IBMUS
>  | > cc:
>  | > Subject:        RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some 
> Thoughts ..."]
>  | >
>  | >
>  | >
>  | > Given that you won't be able to prove it, let's look at it in a
>  | > practical manner. Everything in the universe is both 
> describable and
>  | > discoverable. Therefore, speaking about D&D generally 
> does not add any
>  | > clarity to the definition. On the other hand, if you're speaking
>  | > specifically about discovery services like UDDI and
>  | > description services
>  | > like WSDL, then that too is wrong, as I know of several 
> web services
>  | > already in production that use neither WSDL nor anything 
> like UDDI.
>  | >
>  | > --steve
>  | >
>  | > > -----Original Message-----
>  | > > From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@us.ibm.com]
>  | > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 3:57 PM
>  | > > To: Vinoski, Stephen
>  | > > Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."]
>  | > >
>  | > >
>  | > > 100% of all Web resources, including Web Services CAN be
>  | > > described and
>  | > > discovered.  The differentiating factor is HOW.  Every Web
>  | > > service CAN be
>  | > > discovered regardless of whether or not the Web 
> service explicitly
>  | > > supports a specific discovery mechanism.  Every Web 
> service CAN be
>  | > > decribed regardless of whether or not the Web service
>  | > > explicity supports a
>  | > > specific description mechanism.  You are right in that
>  | > decription and
>  | > > discovery alone do not distinguish Web services from other
>  | > > types of web
>  | > > resources, but that does not mean that the properties of
>  | > > discoverability
>  | > > and description are not part of the formal definition of a
>  | > > Web service.
>  | > >
>  | > > - James M Snell/Fresno/IBM
>  | > >     Web services architecture and strategy
>  | > >     Internet Emerging Technologies, IBM
>  | > >     544.9035 TIE line
>  | > >     559.587.1233 Office
>  | > >     919.486.0077 Voice Mail
>  | > >     jasnell@us.ibm.com
>  | > >  Programming Web Services With SOAP, O'reilly & 
> Associates, ISBN
>  | > > 0596000952
>  | > >
>  | > > ==
>  | > > Have I not commanded you?  Be strong and courageous.  Do not
>  | > > be terrified,
>  | > >
>  | > > do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you
>  | > > wherever you
>  | > > go.
>  | > > - Joshua 1:9
>  | > >
>  | > > To:     James M Snell/Fresno/IBM@IBMUS, "Joseph Hui"
>  | > > <jhui@digisle.net>
>  | > > cc:     <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
>  | > > Subject:        RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some 
> Thoughts ..."]
>  | > >
>  | > >
>  | > >
>  | > > > -----Original Message-----
>  | > > > From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@us.ibm.com]
>  | > > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 1:21 PM
>  | > > > To: Joseph Hui
>  | > > > Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
>  | > > > Subject: RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some Thoughts ..."]
>  | > > >
>  | > > >
>  | > > > A Web Service must be defined as having the properties that
>  | > > it can be
>  | > > > decribed and discovered.  Both the Web service and it's
>  | > > > description must
>  | > > > be discoverable.
>  | > >
>  | > > No, and no. This thread of email already contain multiple
>  | > explanations
>  | > > of why.
>  | > >
>  | > > > Definition ==> A Web service can be described and discovered.
>  | > >
>  | > > As I've already explained using real-world examples, neither
>  | > > of these is
>  | > > necessarily true (other than the discovery via URI that Mark
>  | > > mentioned).
>  | > >
>  | > > Neither discovery (as in UDDI-like services) nor description
>  | > > distinguish
>  | > > Web Services from prior art, nor are they found in 100% of
>  | > > existing Web
>  | > > Services systems. They are therefore not needed to define Web
>  | > > Services.
>  | > >
>  | > > --steve
>  | > >
>  | > > >
>  | > > > - James M Snell/Fresno/IBM
>  | > > >     Web services architecture and strategy
>  | > > >     Internet Emerging Technologies, IBM
>  | > > >     544.9035 TIE line
>  | > > >     559.587.1233 Office
>  | > > >     919.486.0077 Voice Mail
>  | > > >     jasnell@us.ibm.com
>  | > > >  Programming Web Services With SOAP, O'reilly & 
> Associates, ISBN
>  | > > > 0596000952
>  | > > >
>  | > > > ==
>  | > > > Have I not commanded you?  Be strong and courageous.  Do not
>  | > > > be terrified,
>  | > > >
>  | > > > do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you
>  | > > > wherever you
>  | > > > go.
>  | > > > - Joshua 1:9
>  | > > >
>  | > > > Sent by:        www-ws-arch-request@w3.org
>  | > > > To:     <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
>  | > > > cc:
>  | > > > Subject:        RE: Web Service Definition [Was "Some
>  | > Thoughts ..."]
>  | > > >
>  | > > >
>  | > > >
>  | > > > By now IMHO we the WG have made the progress that 
> D&D ought to be
>  | > > > in the def.  (Have we not?  I don't want to be 
> presumptuous here.)
>  | > > > So the issue to be settled is whether D&D is already 
> accounted for
>  | > > > in URI.
>  | > > >
>  | > > > In my view URI is for addressability.  A globally 
> unique ID offers
>  | > > > no intrinsic value to a resource's discovery.  E.g. 
> there's no way
>  | > > > johny, seeking to buy books, can discover a book seller by
>  | > > > inferring from a URI like http://www.amazon.com.
>  | > > > Mark's made some good points; yet I find the
>  | > > > "D&D-accounted-for-in-URI"
>  | > > > argument too tenuous.  Withi the web context, D&D is 
> an integral
>  | > > > (as Sandeep put it) part of WS.  It's not a property 
> that can be
>  | > > > assumed by default, thus calling it out is warranted.
>  | > > >
>  | > > > Cheers,
>  | > > >
>  | > > > Joe Hui
>  | > > > Exodus, a Cable & Wireless service
>  | > > > =========================================
>  | > > >
>  | > > > > -----Original Message-----
>  | > > > > From: Mark Baker [mailto:distobj@acm.org]
>  | > > > > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 6:53 AM
>  | > > > > To: Sandeep Kumar
>  | > > > > Cc: Vinoski Stephen; Joseph Hui; www-ws-arch@w3.org
>  | > > > > Subject: Re: Web Service Definition [Was "Some 
> Thoughts ..."]
>  | > > > >
>  | > > > >
>  | > > > > Sandeep,
>  | > > > >
>  | > > > > > If D&D are not an integral part of a Web Service 
> defintion,
>  | > > > >
>  | > > > > I was claiming that discoverability *is* an 
> integral part of the
>  | > > > > definition.  It's just already accounted for by defining
>  | > > that a Web
>  | > > > > service be URI identifiable.
>  | > > > >
>  | > > > > I know this is a bit different than some Web service work
>  | > > > people have
>  | > > > > already done, but this is (IMO) one of those times 
> where our
>  | > > > > mandate to
>  | > > > > be integrated with Web architecture effects our work.
>  | > > > >
>  | > > > > > pl help me define
>  | > > > > > how would you define a Web (or a Network) of Web 
> Services,
>  | > > > > the participants.
>  | > > > > >
>  | > > > > > At a high-level, they must at least have the same
>  | > > > > characteristics. If not,
>  | > > > > > it would be much harder to reason about them
>  | > > > semantically, deal with
>  | > > > > > managing & monitoring them.
>  | > > > >
>  | > > > > Sorry, I'm unclear what you're asking.
>  | > > > >
>  | > > > > MB
>  | > > > > --
>  | > > > > Mark Baker, Chief Science Officer, Planetfred, Inc.
>  | > > > > Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA.      mbaker@planetfred.com
>  | > > > > http://www.markbaker.ca   http://www.planetfred.com
>  | > > > >
>  | > > >
>  | > > >
>  | > > >
>  | > > >
>  | > >
>  | > >
>  | > >
>  | >
>  | >
>  | >
>  |
>  |
> 
> 
Received on Sunday, 3 March 2002 07:15:57 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Tuesday, 3 July 2007 12:24:55 GMT