W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-ws-arch@w3.org > July 2002

Re: Asynchronous Web Services

From: David Booth <dbooth@w3.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:43:27 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720170531.03db46c8@localhost>
To: "Edwin Khodabakchian" <edwink@collaxa.com>, "'Paul Prescod'" <paul@prescod.net>, <www-ws-arch@w3.org>

At 04:54 PM 7/19/2002 -0700, Edwin Khodabakchian wrote:

>Paul,
>
>This is a very good explanation.
>
>How would you address the case where the client initiates the long-lived
>transaction through a one-way protocol like SMTP or JMS. It seems to me
>that it that case, the client needs to specify the correlationId.

Another possibility is that the client and the service could each have 
their own correlation ID.  The client could supply a clientCorrelationID if 
the client initiates the interaction with the service, and the service 
could respond with a serverCorrelationID.  The clientCorrelationID could be 
a URI that GETs the client's state (which should include the corresponding 
serverCorrelationID as soon as it is know), and the serverCorrelationID 
could be a URI that GETs the server's state (which would also include the 
corresponding clientCorrelationID).  Since each one points to the other, 
either one could be used to unambiguously identify the conversation as a whole.


>As to whether the correlationId should be a URI, some clients (like a VB
>app) cannot host URIs: those clients interact with the long-lived
>transaction through polling (passing in the correlationId as part of
>each request).
>
>It seems to me that a correlationId is not a resource but rather a key
>used as part of an asynchronous interactions.

Do you mean "key" as in "database key"?  I think it's true that a 
correlationID might conventionally be viewed like a database key -- with a 
scope limited to the particular application.  But I don't think this would 
be a good idea for a Web application.  In the global world of the Web and 
Web Services I think it would be better to give it global scope, as a URI.

We are accustomed to thinking of a URI (well, a URL actually) as being the 
address of a document.  But in fact, a URI really *is* a key, in the 
database sense.  The difference between a traditional database key and a 
URI is its scope.  A database key is a unique identifier for something that 
lives within the very limited scope of a particular database -- not the 
world as a whole -- and is difficult to use sensibly outside of that 
scope.  A URI is a unique identifier for something that lives within the 
global scope of the World Wide Web.  It is globally unique, which makes it 
easy to use sensibly in new contexts beyond the limited scope of the 
initial application.  This will be particularly important in Web Services, 
as smaller Services are combined in new ways to make larger Services.


>Otherwise, I would tend to agree with you that the initiated long-live
>transaction should be a resource hosted by the server and whose state
>should be available through GET.
>
>Best,
>
>Edwin
>http://www.collaxa.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Paul Prescod
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 4:33 PM
> > To: David Orchard; www-ws-arch@w3.org
> > Subject: REST, Conversations and Reliability
> >
> >
> >
> > David offers the following URI:
> >
> > http://dev2dev.bea.com/techtrack/SOAPConversation.jsp
> >
> > In my mind, it is a perfect example of a protocol that can be
> > enhanced by applying some REST discipline.
> >
> > The BEA proposal introduces a concept of "ConversationID"
> > which represents a conversation. It also introduces a state
> > machine that allows the participants to move through the
> > stages from "no conversation" to "talking" to "finished
> > conversing". It defines ways that headers are used to move
> > through those stages. It also defines how a callback URI can
> > be presented. It has quite a resemblance to the ideas in the
> > HTTPEvents draft.
> >
> > Now let me apply a combination of REST discipline and my own
> > thoughts about networking.
> >
> > Let's call the recipient of the first message the "server"
> > and the sender of the first message the "client" although at
> > an HTTP level they may switch roles if the exchange is asynchronous.
> >
> > The server needs to deal with N incoming conversations and
> > needs to keep them all straight. Also, the server by
> > definition has the capability to host URIs but the client may
> > or may not. For this and other reasons, I feel that the
> > conversation ID should be generated by the recipient, not the
> > sender. Most important: the recipient can trivially generate
> > IDs unique to them. The sender can at best use UUIDs to
> > reduce the chances of collision.
> >
> > Second, the conversation ID should be a (surprise!) http URI.
> > It should point to a conversation resource. Obviously if the
> > conversation is necessary to the successful completion of the
> > discussion then it is an important resource and deserves a
> > URI. This isn't just theoretically clean it is extremely
> > important in practice as will become clear in a moment.
> >
> > Let's think about reliability.
> >
> > What happens if the conversation-constructing message is
> > lost? That's okay. The client can just send it again.
> >
> > What happens if the conversation-constructing response is
> > lost? That's okay. The client can just set up a new
> > conversation resource and the server can dispose of the
> > unused one after a timeout.
> >
> > Now both partners are in the "conversing" state. But the big
> > difference between the original proposal and the REST
> > proposal is that the REST proposal makes this state explicit
> > in terms of universally addressable resources.
> >
> > According to the original proposal, callbacks refer to the
> > conversation ID. In my proposal, callbacks would also refer
> > to the conversation resource. But the conversation resource
> > would be a real data-containing resource. For instance in an
> > instant-messaging application, the conversation resource
> > would list which users are involved with the discussion. In
> > an order negotiation application, the conversation resource
> > could point to the good being bought or sold. Note that the
> > server by definition has access to this information so it is
> > just a case of giving the information a URI so that it may be
> > looked up at runtime by the client or third parties.
> >
> > This is important for a variety of reasons. First, it means
> > that clients can be stateless and thus simpler. It means that
> > the client-end of a conversation can migrate from one machine
> > to another merely by passing the conversation ID URI (and
> > authentication information). It means that an (authorized)
> > third-party application like a logger, auditor or security
> > filter can apprise itself of the full state of the
> > conversation just by following the URI in the message.
> >
> > A conversation resource is not in any way tied to any
> > particular nodes/endpoints. Once it is set up, dozens or
> > hundreds of participants can be involved without any major
> > architectural shift. The third, fourth, etc. participants are
> > brought in merely by forwarding them the URI. There are no
> > hard-coded roles of "client" and "server" after the
> > conversation is set up. There is "the server maintaining the
> > conversation" and "everybody else".
> >
> > Also, stateless presentation tools like XSLT stylesheets can
> > extract information for rendering the transmitted message.
> > Assertions can be made about conversation resources using
> > RDF. An HTML representation of resources can be used for
> > technical support and debugging.
> >
> > Most important: if the client or other participant misses a
> > message, gets state corrupted or otherwise gets confused
> > about the state of the conversation, it can refresh itself
> > with a simple GET. That's a scalable approach to reliability.
> > Under the original protocol, there is no way for a confused
> > client that has missed a message to check whether the
> > conversation is still ongoing and thus it should expect more
> > messages. For instance if the client is momentarily offline,
> > there is no way for it to check whether the server timed-out
> > in the meantime.
> >
> > The original proposal says:
> >
> > "The ContinueHeader
> >        MUST be sent on any messages to operations that are
> > marked in the
> >        WSDL as requesting a ContinueHeader."
> >
> > I feel that this is too large grained of a constraint. In
> > some cases, conversations will need to nest. For instance
> > there is the conversation that sets up a shopper/seller
> > relationship and then within that there are conversations on
> > the price of individual items. In the REST model these would
> > be just different kinds of conversation resources. Some
> > operations would expect a reference to a "shopping
> > conversation" and some operations would expect a reference to
> > a "product price negotiation" conversation. Of course each
> > resource would have a link to the other so that it is
> > possible to easily go from one to another.
> >
> > The original proposal says that the conversation is ended in
> > an unspecified manner. I do not understand why it would
> > specify some things and leave that unspecified. Therefore I
> > would say rather that the conversation is ended when either
> > party DELETEs the conversation resource. There should be some
> > standardized way for the server to indicate that it is doing
> > so to a callback-capable client. Alternately, conversation
> > resources could be immortal (for archival purposes) but could
> > have a flag that says whether they are ongoing or historical.
> >
> > I hope this demonstrates that a REST approach is not at all
> > at odds with a "named conversation" approach but a REST
> > approach would say:
> >
> >  1. Conversations should be named as everything else on the
> > Web is named, with URIs.
> >
> >  2. Conversations should be inspectable and introspectable as
> > everything else on the Web is, through HTTP GET.
> >
> >  3. Any authorized party (especially confused clients) should
> > be able to bring itself up to a full understanding of the
> > state of the conversation by looking at the conversation URI
> > (or things linked to the conversation URI).
> >
> >  4. Conversations will almost always have important
> > associated data (the stuff being talked about) and the
> > resource storing that information can easily serve as the
> > conversation resource.
> > --
> > Come discuss XML and REST web services at:
> >   Open Source Conference: July 22-26, 2002, conferences.oreillynet.com
> >   Extreme Markup: Aug 4-9, 2002,  www.extrememarkup.com/extreme/
> >
> >

-- 
David Booth
W3C Fellow / Hewlett-Packard
Telephone: +1.617.253.1273
Received on Saturday, 20 July 2002 17:41:06 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Tuesday, 3 July 2007 12:25:02 GMT