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IRC minutes of 8/29/2002 telecon (RAW)

From: Francis McCabe <fgm@fla.fujitsu.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:09:02 -0700
To: www-ws-arch@w3.org
Message-Id: <8B25F83E-BB93-11D6-A26F-000393A3327C@fla.fujitsu.com>


Log file opened at: 8/29/02 12:24:44 PM
#ws-arch: frankmcca mchampion dbooth
*** End of /NAMES list.
*** Channel Mode is +
  frankmcca: hi
*** mnot (~mnot@adsl-67-119-69-242.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined  
channel #ws-arch
     dbooth: Hi Frank!
*** Zakim (~&rrs-brid@tux.w3.org) has joined channel #ws-arch
*** RRSAgent (~&rrs-logg@tux.w3.org) has joined channel #ws-arch
             RRSAgent is logging
     dbooth: zakim, this is arch
      Zakim: sorry, dbooth, I do not see a conference named 'arch'
             mnot was just wondering where our trusty friends were...
     dbooth: zakim, what conferences?
      Zakim: I see no active conferences
       mnot: zakim, this is ws-arch
      Zakim: sorry, mnot, I do not see a conference named 'ws-arch'
     dbooth: zakim, this will be arch
      Zakim: ok, dbooth
  mchampion: Not quite as smart as SimOne, is he?
--> mchampion  Mike did you get the email I just sent to you and Dave  
hollander?
     dbooth: You just gotta know how to talk to him!
*** dougb (~doug.bunt@192.18.177.217) has joined channel #ws-arch
      Zakim: WS_ArchWG()3:30PM has now started
      Zakim: +DavidB
      Zakim: + +1.408.732.aaaa
      Zakim: +??P1
  mchampion: Mark Nottingham, who do you work for?  I need to update the  
roll ...
*** Roger (~RogerCutl@chvpkntproxy2.chevrontexaco.com) has joined  
channel #ws-arch
      dougb: zakim, ??P1 is probably me
      Zakim: +Dougb?; got it
  frankmcca: zakim, I am P1
      Zakim: sorry, frankmcca, I do not see a party named 'P1'
      Zakim: +Mark_A_Jones
       mnot: BEA - I'm David's alternate. (have been trying to get the  
rego right with Hugo)
      Zakim: +??P4
  frankmcca: zzakim, I am aaaa
*** DaveH (~dmh@vsat-148-63-77-247.c002.t7.mrt.starband.net) has joined  
channel #ws-arch
     dbooth: zakim, aaaa is Frank
      Zakim: +Frank; got it
      Roger: zakim, I am ??P4
      Zakim: +Roger; got it
      Roger: zakim, who is here
      Zakim: Roger, you need to end that query with '?'
      Roger: zakim, you are a picky son of a gun.
      Zakim: I don't understand 'you are a picky son of a gun.', Roger.   
Try /msg Zakim help
      Zakim: +??P5
  mchampion: Thanks, Mark.  I have that in a message somewhere ...
      Roger: zakim, who is here?
      Zakim: On the phone I see DavidB, Frank, Dougb?, Mark_A_Jones,  
Roger, ??P5
      Zakim: On IRC I see DaveH, Roger, dougb, RRSAgent, Zakim, mnot,  
frankmcca, mchampion, dbooth
             dbooth thinks zakim teaches grammar on the side.
      dougb: me thinks that was a question
      Zakim: +Hugo
      Zakim: +Dave_Hollander
      Zakim: +??P8
      Zakim: -??P8
      Zakim: +Sinisa_Zimek
      Zakim: +Colleen_Evans
      Zakim: +??P9
      Zakim: +R_Radhika
      Zakim: + +1.650.875.aabb
*** Kreger (~kreger@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) has joined channel #ws-arch
      Zakim: +??P12
       mnot: Zakim, ??P12 is mnot
      DaveH: zakim, who named you?
      Zakim: +Mnot; got it
      Zakim: I don't understand your question, DaveH.
      DaveH: zakim, who is here?
      Zakim: On the phone I see DavidB, Frank, Dougb?, Mark_A_Jones,  
Roger, ??P5, Hugo (muted), Dave_Hollander, Sinisa_Zimek, Colleen_Evans,  
??P9, R_Radhika, +1.650.875.aabb, Mnot
      Zakim: On IRC I see Kreger, DaveH, Roger, dougb, RRSAgent, Zakim,  
mnot, frankmcca, mchampion, dbooth
      Zakim: +??P13
     dbooth: Scribe: Frank
     dbooth: Chairs: Mike Champion & Dave Hollander
  frankmcca: zakim, I am frank
      Zakim: ok, frankmcca, I now associate you with Frank
  frankmcca: agenda:
  frankmcca: charter proposal
  frankmcca: wsci submission is a starting point?
  frankmcca: f2f agenda
     Kreger: Chris will try to join later
      Zakim: +??P14
  frankmcca: ws desc group overlap for f2f
  frankmcca: minimal overlap with web services wg expected
      Zakim: -Colleen_Evans
      Zakim: +??P15
      Zakim: -??P15
  frankmcca: requirements discussion to a close, to get closure on  
requirements document
      Zakim: +??P8
  frankmcca: f2f: choreography wg, workshop
  frankmcca: reading list
*** MarkB (~mbaker@cpu2164.adsl.bellglobal.com) has joined channel  
#ws-arch
      Zakim: +MarkB
      Zakim: + +1.617.439.aacc
  frankmcca: mark baker to talk about about REST?
  frankmcca: We would like to give a presentation on business related  
aspects of web services
  frankmcca: :-)
      DaveH: Frank will be given time for a presentation prior to  
covering the requirements document
      DaveH: Frank is encouraged to begin discussion on email list  
regarding requirments.
      DaveH: Mark and DaveO will be given 1 hour for presentation at f2f
  frankmcca: f2f agenda: requirements phase, architecture phase
  frankmcca: usage scenario document progress
  frankmcca: status of usage scenario doc - published at end of July  
working draft
  frankmcca: hugo: some parts need more work. editorial comments.
  frankmcca: security usage scenarios needed
  frankmcca: status: does not represent consensue yet.
  frankmcca: half day session on usage scenario
  frankmcca: technical issues with doc: improve consistency
  frankmcca: please contribute text
*** chrisf (~chrisferr@231-29-189-66.wo.cpe.charter-ne.com) has joined  
channel #ws-arch
      Zakim: +Chris_Ferris
     chrisf: howdy
  frankmcca: glossary: definitions will need discussion. Alternate  
editor required?
  frankmcca: glossary needs organization
     chrisf: the important thing missing is attribution/biblio!!!!!
     chrisf: zakim, agenda?
      Zakim: I see nothing on the agenda
  frankmcca: heather: management asepcts of WSA, sometime during 2nd/3rd  
day
  frankmcca: f2f agenda summary:
  frankmcca: requirements doc, presnetations by Mark Baker & Frank  
McCabe, architecture itself, management issues, usage document, glossary
      Zakim: +??P32
  frankmcca: hugo: architecture doc. MEPs in intro, in SOAP section, in  
WSDL, how should they be related to each other
             dougb chris, Agenda wasn't described to Zakim but includes  
f2f agenda, choreography charter proposal and WSCI as starting point,  
now discussing things not on agenda :-)
      Zakim: -R_Radhika
             chrisf is choreog wg charter on the f2f agenda?
      DaveH: Yes, it is.
     chrisf: what about RM?
             chrisf lol! I can read minds:)
  frankmcca: roger: relaible messaging must be in the requirements  
document
      DaveH: personally, I agree. RM is essential.
             chrisf me too:)
  frankmcca: AC017 may be dropped, in which case we must put reliable  
messaging in specifically
      DaveH: Action: chairs to add RM and Management as sub-topic of  
during the architecture document session
      DaveH: Action: Roger to restrucutre AC017 to capture RM but drop  
other items
     dbooth: Frank == Francis McCabe, Fujitsu
     *DaveH* If you watn, I will scribe
  frankmcca: Am I that bad a scribe?
  frankmcca: :-)
     *DaveH* my distraction is done...always at least two things!
      DaveH: NO! >)
     chrisf: ACTION: chairs to add RM and Management as sub-topic of  
during the architecture document session
             RRSAgent records action 1
     chrisf: ACTION: Roger to restrucutre AC017 to capture RM but drop  
other items
             RRSAgent records action 2
  frankmcca: The WSDL harverseting efforts not reflected in the WSA  
document currently and the processing model is not yet clear in the  
document
     chrisf: ACTION: Hao to republish WSDL harvesting message URIs
             RRSAgent records action 3
     *DaveH* NO!  Just didn't see the actions....sorry.
      Zakim: -??P13
--> DaveH  I'm new to this game. I'll try to mark them properly
     *DaveH* thanks...it is the best way to keep mike and I honest
  frankmcca: text for wsa doc welcome. preferably drop in text :-)
     chrisf: people sending emails recommending text for specs should  
copy w3c-wsa-editors@w3.org so we can track these better
  frankmcca: ACTION: daveH to provide top down text
             RRSAgent records action 4
  frankmcca: charter for choreography wg has been published privately
  frankmcca: CG charter topic next tuesday (choreography WG charter)
             chrisf thinks it is too broad
  frankmcca: scoping statement for choreography WG.
      Zakim: -Sinisa_Zimek
  frankmcca: discuss charter formally next week. Will have been  
discussed by CG. f2f can react to scoping section and overall document.
  frankmcca: must be done by f2f.
  frankmcca: eric: Iona will have specific comments to charter.
  frankmcca: current charter is open, additional constraints will be  
considered
  frankmcca: ACTION: all comments to proposed charter asap
             RRSAgent records action 5
  frankmcca: mark baker feels its not needed, but will not object to  
chartering group.
       mnot: +q
             Zakim wonders where q is
       mnot: q+
             Zakim sees Mnot on the speaker queue
     chrisf: ack mnot
             Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  frankmcca: ACTION: workshop discussion on choreography in f2f agenda
             RRSAgent records action 6
             chrisf if discussion of workshop is F2F item, then soonest  
it could be held is mid November
  frankmcca: relationship between the CWG (Choreography WG) and WSA WG;  
substantive issue of how to run the workshop, and the relationship  
between choreography and WSA itself
       mnot: q+
             Zakim sees Mnot on the speaker queue
  frankmcca: 8 weeks needed to establishing CWG from f2f
      DaveH: p-
      DaveH: q-
             Zakim sees Mnot on the speaker queue
  mchampion: ack mnot
             Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  frankmcca: mnot: potentially destructive to hold a workshop to decide  
whether to have a CWG or not
  frankmcca: It may not be a workshop from W3C process POV
      DaveH: q+
             Zakim sees DaveH on the speaker queue
     dbooth: Frank, what you're describing sure sounds like a workshop!
  frankmcca: Ahh, its all in the legal technicalities
     chrisf: we discussed w/s to be held concurrent with chartering  
process and not serially
     chrisf: on last week's call
     dbooth:  
http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process-20010719/events.html#GAEvents
  frankmcca: workshop targetted to bootstrapping the CWG as effectively  
as possible
  frankmcca: What are the dangers of halding a workshop?
      DaveH: ack daveh
             Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
      Zakim: - +1.617.439.aacc
  frankmcca: dangers: from W3C has a specific function.
  frankmcca: dangers: from W3C a workshop has a specific function.
  frankmcca: seems to be consensus that CWG is a good thing. The  
proposed charter a good starting point
  frankmcca: ACTION: all anyone willing to edit glossary, please contact  
editors.
             RRSAgent records action 7
  frankmcca: dbooth volunteers
  frankmcca: WSCI submission
  frankmcca: W3C has directed the WSCI submission to WSAWG for  
consideration
  frankmcca: WSCI desrerves some discussion
  frankmcca: in this WG
  frankmcca: Is this a template for the CWG?
  frankmcca: What CSFs does WSCI fullfill?
     dbooth: Incidentally, the lead time requirements for a F2F meeting  
are the same as for a Workshop:  
http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process-20010719/ 
groups.html#GeneralMeetings (both 8 weeks)
  frankmcca: WSCI is explicit input to proposed CWG, what are we trying  
to decide in this group now?
      DaveH: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2002/04/Comment
  frankmcca: Submission was made to WSA WG
     dbooth: Dave, in what page did you find the broken link?
      DaveH: http://www.w3.org/TR/wsci/
  frankmcca: We should make some progress in understanding relationship  
between choreography and rest of WSA. Decisions not being here,  
education is the topic at hand
             Zakim sees We, Should, Make, Some, Progress, In,  
Understanding, Relationship, Between, Choreography, Rest, Of, WSA.,  
Decisions, Not, Being, Here, Education, Is, The, Topic, At on the
             Zakim ... speaker queue
      dougb: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2002/04/ link on same page is  
also broken (forbidden)
  frankmcca: ??
     dbooth: queue =
     dbooth: Frank, you've confused zakim!
     dbooth: q?
             Zakim sees We, Should, Make, Some, Progress, In,  
Understanding, Relationship, Between, Choreography, Rest, Of, WSA.,  
Decisions, Not, Being, Here, Education, Is, The, Topic, At on the
             Zakim ... speaker queue
      DaveH: q?
             Zakim sees We, Should, Make, Some, Progress, In,  
Understanding, Relationship, Between, Choreography, Rest, Of, WSA.,  
Decisions, Not, Being, Here, Education, Is, The, Topic, At on the
  frankmcca: WSCI exists to replace hypertext as business interaction
      DaveH: ack
             Zakim ... speaker queue
      DaveH: ack
  frankmcca: zakim, q-
      Zakim: I see We, Should, Make, Some, Progress, In, Understanding,  
Relationship, Between, Choreography, Rest, Of, WSA., Decisions, Not,  
Being, Here, Education, Is, The, Topic, At on the
      Zakim: ... speaker queue
     dbooth: queue=dbooth
             Zakim sees Dbooth on the speaker queue
     dbooth: q?
             Zakim sees Dbooth on the speaker queue
     dbooth: q-
             Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  frankmcca: you don't follow links, you invoke methods
      DaveH: frank, please note that it is one members position:
  frankmcca: RESTocruteans
  frankmcca: RESTocruateans
  frankmcca: RESTocrusteans
  frankmcca: Humans can deal with hypertext, programs can't
      DaveH: another view: point is to write code that can konw what it  
will be doing apriori
  frankmcca: we should prejudice choreography from other inputs
  frankmcca: we should NOT prejudice choreography from other inputs
      dougb: q+
             Zakim sees Dougb on the speaker queue
      dougb: ack dougb
             Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
       mnot: q+
             Zakim sees Mnot on the speaker queue
  frankmcca: is anything wrong with our response to WSCI "we have  
recommended chartering a CWG, and thanks"
  frankmcca: More is needed to reflect a proper respective to the work  
involved
  frankmcca: BEA, Sun, Oracle(?) feels that a response along above lines  
is fine
  frankmcca: We shhould harvest WSCI for WSA
  frankmcca: There is a use case in the WSCI doc, we should grab it?
  frankmcca: ACTION: all, read the WSCI doc.
             RRSAgent records action 8
     dbooth: queue=
             Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  frankmcca: Discuss at the next telecon
      dougb: sorry, bye now
*** Signoff: dougb (User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby)
      Zakim: -Dougb?
      DaveH: next week, same bat time, real bat channel
      Zakim: -Mark_A_Jones
      DaveH: ACTION: chairs to add wsci doc to f2f reading list
             RRSAgent records action 9
  frankmcca: registration deadline is sept 1st
  frankmcca: teleconference bridge - one request so far
      DaveH: those who register late, are at the discression of the host  
and are not likely to have food service
      DaveH: ACTION: daveB will secure 5 dial in lines
             RRSAgent records action 10
      DaveH: ttfn
      Zakim: -??P14
  frankmcca: see you next week in full official mode
*** Signoff: DaveH (User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby)
      Zakim: -??P5
      Zakim: -Chris_Ferris
      Zakim: -??P9
      Zakim: -MarkB
      Zakim: -??P8
      Zakim: -Frank
      Zakim: -Mnot
*** Signoff: Roger ()
  frankmcca: I will email this out shortly
      Zakim: -Hugo
      Zakim: - +1.650.875.aabb
      Zakim: -DavidB
      Zakim: -Roger
      Zakim: -??P32
      Zakim: -Dave_Hollander
      Zakim: WS_ArchWG()3:30PM has ended
     chrisf: zakim, please excuse us
*** Zakim has left channel #ws-arch (Zakim)
     chrisf: rrsagent, please excuse us
   RRSAgent: I see 10 open action items:
   RRSAgent: ACTION: chairs to add RM and Management as sub-topic of  
during the architecture document session [1]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-16-43
   RRSAgent: ACTION: Roger to restrucutre AC017 to capture RM but drop  
other items [2]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-16-54
   RRSAgent: ACTION: Hao to republish WSDL harvesting message URIs [3]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-17-44
   RRSAgent: ACTION: daveH to provide top down text [4]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-20-57
   RRSAgent: ACTION: all comments to proposed charter asap [5]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-26-20
   RRSAgent: ACTION: workshop discussion on choreography in f2f agenda  
[6]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-33-31
   RRSAgent: ACTION: all anyone willing to edit glossary, please contact  
editors. [7]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-41-56
   RRSAgent: ACTION: all, read the WSCI doc. [8]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-57-15
   RRSAgent: ACTION: chairs to add wsci doc to f2f reading list [9]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T20-59-09
   RRSAgent: ACTION: daveB will secure 5 dial in lines [10]
   RRSAgent:   recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc#T21-00-44
*** RRSAgent has left channel #ws-arch (RRSAgent)
     chrisf: URI for IRC log is: http://www.w3.org/2002/08/29-ws-arch-irc
     chrisf: david, can you please tweak the ACL member only? thanks!
     dbooth: sure...
     dbooth: done
*** Signoff: Kreger ()
Received on Thursday, 29 August 2002 17:09:54 GMT

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