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RE: Minutes of Web Ontology Working Group teleconference of June 5, 2003

From: Smith, Michael K <michael.smith@eds.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 17:34:12 -0500
Message-ID: <B8E84F4D9F65D411803500508BE3221416883415@USPLM207>
To: "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfps@research.bell-labs.com>, www-webont-wg@w3.org

ACTION: Mike Smith will update issue list 5.06  (in re: imports closure)

This was done, per my message
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0379.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter F. Patel-Schneider [mailto:pfps@research.bell-labs.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 1:12 PM
To: www-webont-wg@w3.org
Subject: Minutes of Web Ontology Working Group teleconference of June 5,
2003



Minutes of Web Ontology Working Group teleconference of June 5, 2003

Chair: Jim Hendler
Scribe: Peter Patel-Schneider


1.0 Admin

Roll Call

Next telecon: June 12, usual time
    chair: Guus Schreiber
    Scribe: Charles White

Attendance

Jim Hendler, Sandro Hawke, Jean-Francois Baget, Dan Connolly, Frank van
Harmelen, Jeff Heflin, Jeremy Carroll, Evan Wallace, Mike Smith, Peter
F. Patel-Schneider, Herman ter Horst, Chris Welty, Sean Bechhofer, Tim
Finin, Mike Dean, Pat Hayes (joined late), maybe one or two unidentified

Minutes of May 29 telecon
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0402.html
accepted (amended to spell Peter's last name right) as correct.

Kudos to Jeremy: LC Test document published
announcement to chairs (member only link):
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2003AprJun/0064.html

2.0 Action review

ACTION: Jim Hendler to report back on implementation feedback.
	DONE

ACTION: Jim Hendler and Dan Connolly to compose a response to the 
	LC comment on local and compound keys.
	CONTINUED - should be done in a day or two

ACTION: Dan Connolly publish XML syntax RE: ACTION: Mike Smith 
	and Guus Schreiber will review  proposed changes to Guide and 
	Reference for next telecom. (in re reference)
	IN PROGRESS - expected to be done by 9 June

ACTION: Mike Smith will pdate issue list 5.06  (in re: imports closure)
ACTION: Mike Smith to update issue list 5.20 about synonyms with 
	the specific problem of owl:Class vs rdfs:Class
	ASSIGNED to Dan Connolly

ACTION: Jos de Roo to propose a test based on the example given 
	by peter    (context lost)
	DONE

ACTION: Guus to propose a definition for "class description".
	DONE

ACTION: Mike Smith to update the Guide glossary accordingly 
	(possibly removing "class expression").
	DONE

ACTION: DanC to get I18N WG review of last call specs, continued 
	from ~17 years back 1/2;-)
	CONTINUED - expected sometime soon

ACTION: Jeremy add test: {a,b} unionOf {a} {b}
	CONTINUED - expected next week

ACTION: Peter Change the documents to reflect this #2 in 116 change
	DONE

ACTION: Jeremy Send proof sketch of extension to correspondence 
	theorem with B1
	DONE

ACTION: Peter review proof sketch of correspondence with B1 B2 
	CONTINUED - expected by June 12

ACTION: Jeremy equivalentClass with 4 components and no hamiltonian path
	CONTINUED - expected by June 12

ACTION: Peter put  #349(D) change into S&AS
	DONE

ACTION: Jeremy to propose response to 
	owlsas-rdfcore-bnodes-restrictions, including new issue and proposal

	to postpone
	CONTINUED - expected by June 12

ACTION: DanC and Jeremy to review Sean's text for non-normative 
	inclusion into some OWL document
	CONTINUED - expected soon

ACTION: PatH to follow-up to 
	
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0003.html

	CONTINUED, Pat may be waiting for approval


2.0 QA Review of OWL drafts

ACTION: DanC to bring up QA review of OWL Semantics with WG
	DONE

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0002.html

Part of W3C process is QA review,  with a document saying what should be
done.  The QA review of our documents says that we should do certain things
that don't look very palatable.

ACTION: Sandro Hawke, Evan Wallace - review Jeremy's review of the QA last
	call so that it can be sent back as a WG review


X.0 Agenda - changes to OWL semantics

Peter PS gave a quick description of a proposed change to the direct
semantics to handle annotations.  Dan Connolly believes that the changes
are technical and limited to places where people probably don't care. 

ACTION: Jeremy Carroll - review proposed change to direct semantics that
	handles annotations better.

Y.0 Agenda - Sean's document

General agreement that the document is useful, and should be put somewhere.
A proposal to append it to reference and refer to to it from overview and
guide was made and carried.

ACTION: Guus Schreiber - work with Sean to put appendix in Reference
ACTION: Mike Smith - write paragraph that points to the appendix for Guide
ACTION: Frank - write paragraph that points to the appendix for Overview 

Jim Hendler is on the hook to get back to the commentor.

Z.0 Agenda - rdfs:Class vs owl:Class

Lots of discusion on the difference and where it matters.

Test cases

1/	rdfs:Class rdf:type _:x.
	_:x owl:complementOf owl:Class.
  is inconsistent in OWL Full.

2/ rdfs:Class rdf:type _:x .
   _:x owl:intersectionOf _:l .
   _:l rdf:first rdfs:Class .
   _:l rdf:rest rdf:nil .

   follows from the empty KB in OWL Full
   but if owl:Class is a subclass of rdfs:Clas then it doesn't, because
   the comprehension principle for owl:intersectionOf only works on lists
   of OWL classes. 

Dan Connolly mentioned that our response should refer to layering - our
design works - we don't have a design that works without an owl:Class.

ACTION: Frank van Harmelen write draft response for the comment on
	owl:Class vs rdfs:Class
ACTION: Pat Hayes write draft response for the comment on
	owl:Class vs rdfs:Class

3.0  Last Call Comments:

ACTION: JimH to prepare definitive list of LC issues for next telecon
	DONE in 
	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003May/0410.html

Deferred to next week

Adjourn.



Raw IRC Log:


15:48:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webont
15:53:40 <baget> baget has joined #webont
15:54:02 <baget> baget has joined #webont
15:55:11 <jhendler> jhendler has joined #webont
15:58:03 <sandro> sandro has joined #webont
15:59:26 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
15:59:33 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:59:33 <Zakim> +[UMD]
15:59:40 <jhendler> zakim, [umd] is jimH
15:59:40 <Zakim> +jimH; got it
15:59:53 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
15:59:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2003/06/05-webont-irc#T15-59-53
16:00:19 <DanC> agenda + 4 Jun
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0019.html
16:00:43 <jimH> Next Meeting: 2003-06-05, Peter to scribe.  
16:00:43 <jimH> Followed By:  2003-06-12, Charles to scribe.
16:00:52 <jimH> from previous minutes
16:01:01 <DanC> so the "tbd" in the agenda is just an oversight?
16:01:05 <Zakim> +Tayeb
16:01:23 <jimH> tbd is in the "next week" column - but was an oversite
16:01:36 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: 5Jun
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ ; chair: JimH; scribe: PeterPS
16:02:02 <jimH> zakim, Tayeb is Baget 
16:02:02 <Zakim> +Baget; got it
16:02:23 <Zakim> +DanC
16:02:50 <Zakim> + +1.312.063.aaaa
16:02:54 <Zakim> +Tim_Finin
16:03:07 <Zakim> +??P34
16:03:14 <jimH> zakim, Tim_Finin is JeffHeflin
16:03:14 <Zakim> +JeffHeflin; got it
16:03:29 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
16:03:39 <jimH> zakim, ??p34 is Jeremy
16:03:39 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
16:03:44 <Zakim> +[EDS]
16:03:52 <Zakim> +??P35
16:04:00 <Zakim> +??P41
16:04:03 <jimH> zakim, ??p35 is pfps
16:04:03 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
16:04:11 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:04:17 <jimH> zakim, ??p41 is herman
16:04:17 <Zakim> +herman; got it
16:04:19 <pfps> pfps has joined #webont
16:04:21 <FvH> FvH has joined #webont
16:04:29 <jimH> zakim, [ibm] is welty
16:04:29 <Zakim> +welty; got it
16:04:31 <Zakim> -DanC
16:04:36 <jimH> zakim, who is here?
16:04:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, +1.312.063.aaaa,
JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, [EDS], pfps, herman, welty
16:04:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see FvH, pfps, sandro, jimH, baget, RRSAgent,
Zakim, DanC, logger
16:04:41 <Zakim> +DanC
16:04:52 <jjc> jjc has joined #webont
16:04:56 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
16:05:01 <jjc> Zakim, who's talking?
16:05:12 <Zakim> jjc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the
following: jimH (45%), Sandro (30%), DanC (45%), Evan_Wallace (10%),
OPERATOR 19 (24%)
16:05:23 <pfps> zakim, pfps is pfpsscribe
16:05:23 <Zakim> +pfpsscribe; got it
16:05:39 <jimH> zakim, [eds] mikeSmith
16:05:39 <Zakim> I don't understand '[eds] mikeSmith', jimH
16:05:45 <jimH> zakim, [eds] is mikeSmith
16:05:46 <Zakim> +mikeSmith; got it
16:05:47 <Zakim> +??P9
16:06:06 <jimH> zakim, who is here?
16:06:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, DanC,
+1.312.063.aaaa (muted), JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, mikeSmith,
pfpsscribe, herman, welty, SeanB
16:06:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisW, jjc, FvH, pfps, sandro, jimH, baget,
RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, logger
16:06:11 <Zakim> +??P16
16:06:26 <Zakim> - +1.312.063.aaaa
16:06:28 <ChrisW> zakim, ChrisW is Lord
16:06:28 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisW'
16:06:37 <seanb> seanb has joined #webont
16:06:52 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #webont
16:07:13 <Zakim> + +1.312.063.aaaa
16:07:23 <ChrisW> I'm still here
16:07:41 <pfps> 1.0 Admin 
16:07:54 <pfps> Attendance from above
16:08:00 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:08:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see jimH, Sandro, Baget, DanC, FrankvH
(muted), JeffHeflin, Jeremy, Evan_Wallace, mikeSmith, pfpsscribe, herman,
welty, SeanB, TimF
16:08:31 <pfps> Next telecon 12th, Guus chair, Charles White scribe
16:08:44 <pfps> Minutes posted, accepted with one important change!
16:09:23 <guus> guus has joined #webont
16:09:25 <pfps> Announcement - test is in last call - congratulations to
Jeremy and Jos
16:09:32 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:10:08 <Zakim> +??P48
16:10:38 <mdean> mdean has joined #webont
16:10:55 <pfps> Dan - it would be a good idea to include some ``simple''
tests - as points in the sand ?
16:11:43 <DanC> e.g. from authoring tools, tests that just say "this is a
consistent OWL Lite document"
16:11:51 <pfps> Agenda addition - talk about proposed change to OWL
semantics
16:11:57 <pfps> 2.0 Action review
16:12:57 <pfps> JH implementation feedback DONE
16:13:16 <pfps> JH and DC keys CONTINUED - should be done in a day or so!
16:13:39 <pfps> DC publish XML syntax IN PROGRESS - expected to be done by 9
June
16:14:38 <JosD> JosD has joined #webont
16:15:51 <pfps> MS and GS proposed changes to Guide and Reference CONTINUED
- should be done in a day or so
16:17:05 <pfps> MS update issue list 5.06 and 5.20 ASSIGNED to DC
16:17:48 <pfps> Jos de Roo propose a test DONE
16:18:03 <pfps> Dan Connolly amend agenda to discuss this test
16:18:28 <Zakim> +??P26
16:18:44 <pfps> Guus propose a definition for class description DONE
16:19:10 <pfps> Mike Smith to change Guide glossary DONE
16:19:54 <pfps> Dan Connolly I18N review CONTINUE - expected sometime soon
16:20:10 <pfps> Jeremy - test for unionOf CONTINUED - expected next week
16:20:31 <pfps> Peter PS - change semantics  for unionOf - DONE
16:20:45 <pfps> Jeremy Carroll B1 B2 proof sketch - DONE
16:21:04 <pfps> Peter PS - review proof sketch - CONTINUED - expected by 12
June
16:21:22 <DanC> ACTION: Jeremy equivalentClass with 4 components and no 
16:21:22 <DanC> hamiltonian path
16:21:26 <pfps> Jeremy - test for equivalentClass - CONTINUED -expected by
12 June
16:21:46 <pfps> Peter PS - change to semantics - DONE
16:22:06 <pfps> Jeremy Carroll - owlsas-rdfcore-bnodes- restrictions -
CONTINUED - expected 12 June
16:22:24 <pfps> Dan Connolly and Jeremy Carroll - review Sean's document 
16:22:50 <pfps> - CONTINUED - expected soon
16:23:19 <seanb> Document is: http://wonderweb.man.ac.uk/owl/rdf.shtml
16:23:31 <pfps> Pat Hayes - reply to May/0003 - comment prepared but not
sent - CONTINUED, Pat may be waiting for approval
16:23:45 <pfps> 2.0 QA Review
16:23:47 <DanC> Re: QA Review of owl-semantics
16:23:47 <DanC> From: Dan Connolly (connolly@w3.org)
16:23:47 <DanC> Date: Thu, May 01 2003
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003May/0002.html
16:25:33 <pfps> DanC - part of W3C process is QA review,  with a document
saying what should be done
16:25:58 <pfps> DanC - the QA review of our documents says that we should do
certain things that don't look very palatable
16:26:18 <pfps> DanC - volunteers for talking to QA wanted
16:27:40 <pfps> some comments about eggs
16:27:57 <hth> hth has joined #webont
16:28:22 <jjc>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Apr/0158.html
16:28:25 <pfps> DanC - one comment to be addressed is tagging sections as
normative
16:34:13 <ChrisW> Has there been a QA review of any other documents, or just
AS&S?
16:34:17 <pfps> DanC - Jeremy has a review of the QA guidelines
16:35:18 <Zakim> +PatH
16:35:41 <pfps> ACTION - Sandro Hawke, Evan Statton - review Jeremy's
response
16:36:26 <DanC> I'm not sure ChrisW; good question. my reply to their review
of S&AS pointed them at other documents.
16:36:39 <pfps> Agenda - changes to OWL semantics
16:38:43 <pfps> Peter PS - vague description of proposed change to OWL
semantics
16:39:03 <pfps> ACTION: Jeremy Carroll - review change
16:40:29 <pfps> DanC - change is technical - 
16:41:00 <pfps> Jeremy Carroll - one test case can come from initial message
16:41:11 <pfps> Peter PS - another test case is in the message I sent out
16:41:44 <DanC> ACTION 2 = Jeremy Carroll - review change to S&AS semantics
re annotation properties
16:42:16 <pfps> Agenda - Sean's document
16:42:36 <pfps> DanC - document was actually readable
16:42:48 <pfps> DanC - does the doc cover all the bases?
16:44:25 <pfps> JimH - request for such a document outstanding
16:45:10 <pfps> DanC - nice document - could be tacked on to Reference or,
preferably, Guide
16:45:28 <pfps> Mike Smith - could be an appendix to Guide
16:46:56 <pfps> JimH - what if there are other rules?  perhaps by other
authors?
16:47:14 <pfps> DanC - we have to stop sometime
16:47:30 <pfps> JimH - perhaps some other forum will continue
16:47:40 <pfps> DanC - then that should be somewhere else
16:54:31 <DanC> PROPOSED: to append it to reference; refer to to it from
overview and guide
16:56:28 <pfps> Proposal carries by consensus
16:57:04 <pfps> ACTION: Guus - work with Sean to put appendix in Reference
16:57:16 <pfps> ACITON: Mike Smith - write introduction paragraph for Guide
16:57:47 <pfps> ACTION: Frank - similar for Overview 
16:57:54 <DanC> FYI, JimH is on the hook to get back to the commentor.
16:58:35 <pfps> Agenda - rdfs:Class vs owl:Class
16:58:43 <pfps> DanC - proposed test
16:58:53 <DanC> [[[
16:58:53 <DanC> rdfs:Class rdf:type _:x.
16:58:53 <DanC> _:x owl:complementOf owl:Class.
16:58:53 <DanC> as an otest:InconsistencyTest
16:59:00 <DanC> ]]] --
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0031.html
16:59:35 <pfps> JimH - how can we describe this in a way that is
understandable?
17:00:07 <jjc> q+
17:00:47 <pfps> Jos - this can be proved inconsistent in OWL Full
17:05:02 <pfps> PeterPS - the situation is different in OWL DL - but the
question can't be asked in OWL DL
17:06:16 <pfps> Jeremy - rdfs:subPropertyOf is different in RDF and OWL
17:06:50 <pfps> PatH - this is different from owl:Class and rdfs:Class
17:08:21 <ChrisW> PAT!!!!
17:08:26 <pfps> PatH - rdfs:Class is not a member of rdfs:Class in OWL Full
17:09:13 <pfps> DanC - rdfs:Class owl:sameAs owl:Class in OWL Full
17:09:47 <pfps> Jeremy - rdfs:Class owl:equivalentTo owl:Class in OWL Full
17:10:06 <pfps> Peter - rdfs:Class owl:sameAs owl:Class does not follow in
OWL Full
17:11:39 <pfps> PatH - motivation - OWL DL and OWL Full are different - in
OWL DL owl:Thing is not the universe but it is on OWL Full
17:12:02 <sandro> (How about owldl:Class)
17:12:11 <sandro> (for what Pat wants)
17:12:13 <guus> q+
17:12:50 <jimH> ack jjc
17:12:53 <jimH> ack guus
17:13:00 <DanC> ack danc
17:13:00 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to propose dropping owl:Class in favor of
rdfs:Class, to see what breaks
17:13:36 <pfps> Guus - in OWL Full the class extensions are the same
17:13:47 <DanC> (I already found out what breaks; support from WG members)
17:14:06 <jjc> q+
17:14:26 <pfps> JimH - what breaks if owl:Class is removed from the
documents
17:14:50 <guus> q+
17:15:20 <pfps> PatH - then OWL DL willl have theorems that are false in
RDFS
17:16:59 <pfps> JimH - given an RDFS document that uses rdfs:Class how can
it be used as an OWL DL class
17:17:09 <pfps> PatH - you have to do some non-trivial work
17:18:33 <jjc> q+ to mention section 5.4 of S&AS
17:18:48 <DanC> q+ MikeS
17:18:52 <DanC> ack jjc
17:18:52 <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to mention section 5.4 of S&AS
17:19:12 <pfps> Jeremy - a lot of work has to be done in Section 5 of S&AS
17:19:36 <DanC> ack guus
17:20:23 <pfps> Guus - what about RDFS docs that don't fit into OWL DL
17:21:01 <DanC> ack DanC
17:21:01 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask PatH if the owl:Class term is
motivated by possible fixes to OWL in the future
17:21:24 <pfps> Guus - we need owl:Class because of OWL DL
17:22:14 <pfps> DanC - taking owl:Class out requires lots of work, including
semantic layering, so no change
17:22:24 <pfps> Mike Smith - agree
17:22:43 <DanC> i.e. so no reopening semantic layering.
17:24:05 <JosD> q+
17:27:06 <jimH> ack mikes
17:27:13 <jimH> ack josd
17:27:13 <DanC> ack josd
17:28:23 <DanC> that would be more intuitive to me... to say that owl:Class
rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class
17:28:41 <pfps> q+
17:31:14 <ChrisW> gotta go
17:31:17 <Zakim> -welty
17:31:28 <pfps> Peter PS - if owl:Class is not the same as rdfs:Class - then
in OWL  Full it does not follow that rdfs:Class belongs to the
owl:intersectionOf [rdfs:Class]
17:31:45 <pfps> ack pfps
17:31:50 <timfinin> bye
17:31:56 <timfinin> timfinin has left #webont
17:32:05 <Zakim> -TimF
17:32:39 <pfps> DanC - response should refer to layering - our design works
- we don't have a design that works without an owl:Class
17:35:08 <jjc> rdfs:class rdf:type [intersectionOf rdfs:Class]
17:38:28 <DanC> jim, we're discussing the layering issue. this is bordering
on out of order...
17:39:34 <pfps> JimH - volunteer to write an e-mail to futher this
disucssion without opening too much other stuff
17:40:18 <seanb> bye
17:40:25 <Zakim> -SeanB
17:43:14 <DanC> oops; my memory of the issues list is somewhat creative...
17:43:38 <pfps> ACTION: Frank vH write draft response
17:43:50 <pfps> ACTION: PatH write draft response (also for owl:Class)
17:44:19 <DanC> consensus
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Oct/0022.html doesn't
have a diagram; it just expresses the stuff in prose, I guess
17:44:20 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
17:44:28 <jjc> bye
17:44:30 <Zakim> -Jeremy
17:44:37 <Zakim> -mikeSmith
17:44:42 <pfps> ADJOURN
17:44:43 <Zakim> -FrankvH
17:44:46 <Zakim> -JeffHeflin
17:44:48 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:44:52 <Zakim> -herman
17:44:53 <Zakim> -Baget
17:44:57 <Zakim> -JosD
17:45:00 <Zakim> -Guus
Received on Thursday, 5 June 2003 18:34:33 GMT

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