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minutes of 2001-12-06 Webont WG telecon (for review)

From: Lynn Andrea Stein <lynn.stein@olin.edu>
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:04:31 -0500
Message-ID: <3C0FDD5E.467A7EE6@olin.edu>
To: www-webont-wg@w3.org
CC: Jim Hendler <hendler@cs.umd.edu>, las@olin.edu, connolly@w3.org
Since Jim is out of email contact for the next day or so, I'm sending this
directly to the group.

============= Minutes of the 2001-12-06 meeting of the WebOnt WG
not yet reviewed by the participants nor approved by the chair

============= Previous minutes:

============= Agenda:

============= Attendance (28? present):
      3.Frederik Brysse, Ivis Group, Limited Frederik.Brysse@ivisgroup.com
      4.Stephen Buswell, Stilo Technology StephenB@stilo.com, sb@stilo.com
      6.Dan Connolly, W3C Team contact connolly@w3.org
      8.Jos De Roo, Agfa-Gevaert N. V. jos.deroo.jd@belgium.agfa.com (intro)
    10.Mike Dean mdean@bbn.com (invited expert; intro)
    11.Stefan Decker, Stanford stefan@db.stanford.edu (intro)
    12.Tim Finin, University of Maryland MIND Laboratory finin@cs.umbc.edu
    13.Nicholas Gibbins, University of Southampton nmg@ecs.soton.ac.uk (intro)
    14.Pat Hayes, phayes@ai.uwf.edu (invited expert)
    15.Jeff Heflin heflin@cse.lehigh.edu (invited expert; intro)
    16.James Hendler, Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab at the
University of Maryland hendler@cs.umd.edu
        (chair; intro)
    18.Ian Horrocks, Network Inference horrocks@cs.man.ac.uk (intro)
    20.Francesco Iannuzzelli, <francesco.iannuzzelli@ivisgroup.com>, Ivis Group
    22.Ruediger Klein, Daimler Chrysler Research and Technology
ruediger.klein@daimlerchrysler.com (intro)
    27.Deborah McGuinness, Stanford dlm@ksl.stanford.edu (intro)
    29.Leo Obrst, MITRE lobrst@mitre.org (intro)
    30.Peter Patel-Schneider, Lucent Technologies pfps@research.bell-labs.com
    32.Marwan Sabbouh, MITRE ms@mitre.org (intro) (intro)
    36.Michael Smith, Electronic Data System (EDS) michael.smith@eds.com (intro)

    37.Ned Smith, Intel Corporation ned.smith@intel.com (intro)  (left early)
    38.John Stanton, Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA)
    39.Lynn Andrea Stein, lynn.stein@olin.edu (invited expert; intro)
    41.Warner ten Kate, Philips Electronic N.V. warner.ten.kate@philips.com
    42.Herman ter Horst, Philips Electronic N.V. herman.ter.horst@philips.com
    43.Lynne R. Thompson, Unisys Corporation lynne.thompson@unisys.com (intro)
    45.Frank van Harmelen, Ibrow Frank.van.Harmelen@cs.vu.nl (intro)
Noted as absent in roll call log, but clearly present in conversation....joined
late or (more likely) scribe error?
      5.Jeremy Carroll, Hewlett Packard Company jjc@hplb.hpl.hp.com,
jeremy_carroll@hp.com (intro)
regrets, but participated for part of the time anyway:
    25.Ora Lassila, Nokia daml@lassila.org, ora.lassila@nokia.com (intro)

      9.D.C. De Roure, University of Southampton dder@ecs.soton.ac.uk (intro)
    26.Alexander Maedche, <maedche@fzi.de>, Forschungszentrum Informatik (FZI)
    28.Libby Miller, University of Bristol libby.miller@bristol.ac.uk (intro)
    33.Guus Schreiber, Ibrow schreiber@swi.psy.uva.nl (intro)
    34.Shimizu Noboru, Interoperability Technology Association for Information
Processing, Japan (INTAP)
      1.James Barnette, Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA)
    31.Martin Pike, Stilo Technology mp@stilo.com (intro)

============= Summary of ACTIONS:

ACTION (Decker, Schreiber, Obrst, Heflin, McGuinness):  Within the next week,
produce outline of area of use cases.  (See below)

ACTION (JimH): solicit/appoint editors/process for producing completed document
from these pieces.

============= Agenda

> ACTION Review:
> Jim H to solicit/appoint editors for use case documents

ongoing.  A first step is from agenda item 4 (moved forward in the meeting):

> 4  - Use case categorization/volunteers  (40 min) Jim Hendler

General agreement that Jim's email was a good enough start.  Categories from
that email (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2001Dec/0005.html)
and renamed in this telecon, with chairs and participants noted:

1) Web Services
Chair:  Stefan Decker
Also: Ora Lassila, Tim Finin, Lynne Thompson, Mike Dean

2) Archives/CatalogsLarge data (or image) sets/web site management
AKA Collection Management
Chair: Guus Schreiber
Also: Mike Smith, Stephen Buswell, Nick Gibbins

3) Content Interoperability (a/k/a/ agent markup)
AKA Source Interoperability
Chair: Leo Obrst
Also:  Pat Hayes, Dan Connolly, Mike Dean, Herman ter Horst

4) Adaptation of content to user/device (real time/sensors?)
AKA General Requirements/Supporting Requirements
Chairs:  Jeff Heflin and Deborah McGuinness
Also:  Ned Smith, Jeremy Carroll, Pat Hayes, Dan Connolly, Jos De Roo

ACTION (chairs):  Within the next week, produce outline of area of use cases.

Presumably this is based on what's on the email lists, discussions with
participants in your group.  This action item appears to be a minor variant on
the proposed action:  within next 2 weeks, need to produce a 1-2page outline of
each use case area, what they're going to concentrate on.  Also, chairs should
be mindful of:  Subsequent action item will be to produce descriptions of these
use cases in more detail.

> 2 - DAML home page tour (20 min) - Mike Dean
> http://www.daml.org has many resources of use to this group, Mike
> Dean will lead a discussion/virtual tour (please try to have web
> access during the call - now and always)

See especially Mike's presentation at

> 3 - Frank van Harmelen's walkthru of the daml walkthru (20 min) - Frank v. H.

See the walktrhru at http://www.daml.org/2001/03/daml+oil-walkthru.html and
Frank's summary/highlights at

> 4  - Use case categorization/volunteers  (40 min) Jim Hendler

Moved forward in the meeting; see above.

> Discussion of how to move forward (Action to be assigned)

Partly done (see above), but discussion of how to finish the job remains for
next meeting.

> 5 - new business/next agenda discussion

Adjourned before this item could be discussed.

============= NEXT MEETING in one week

============= raw notes (slightly cleaned up from
http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2001-12-06.txt also

Scribe apologies:  I missed several speakers (noted as ?) and I misspelled
almost everyone's name in the irc log at least twice!  Also, when a presenter
continued to hold the floor, I did not always repeat his name at the beginning
of each line; this should be assumed.

16:00:05 <logger_2> logger_2 has joined #webont
16:00:05 <sagan.openprojects.net> Users on #webont: logger_2 @DanC @dajobe
16:01:07 <dajobe> dajobe has left #webont
16:04:30 <mdean_> mdean_ has joined #webont
16:46:50 <fra> fra has joined #webont
16:46:57 <fra> fra has left #webont
16:52:38 <ora> ora has joined #webont
16:55:53 <nmg> nmg has joined #webont
16:56:02 <nmg> evening
16:57:31 <pfps> pfps has joined #webont
17:00:17 <DeborahMcGuinness> DeborahMcGuinness has joined #webont
17:03:26 <francesco> francesco has joined #webont
17:03:33 <las> las has joined #webont
17:03:33 <heflin> heflin has joined #webont
17:03:49 <las> JAH:  Need a scribe.
17:03:50 <DanC> 19 on the bridge per http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html

17:03:55 <las> * las volunteers
17:04:05 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has joined #webont
17:04:08 <las> We are waiting for quorum, then will take attendance.
17:04:19 <las> JAH:  When you enter, please say your name as you enter...
17:04:38 <las> I am not recording everyone's names as they join, will do so in
17:05:22 <IanH> IanH has joined #webont
17:05:42 <las> James Burnett - no
17:05:47 <francesco> hello, here are francesco iannuzzelli and frederick brysse
from ivisgroup, london
17:06:09 <las> Burnett - excused
17:06:13 <las> Breen - absent
17:06:17 <las> Brisa - present
17:06:21 <las> Boswell - present
17:06:25 <las> Carroll - absent
17:06:29 <las> Connolly - present
17:06:32 <las> Dale - absent
17:06:36 <las> de Roos - present
17:06:44 <las> Deruhr - regrets
17:06:46 <las> Dean - present
17:06:49 <las> Decker -p[resent
17:06:51 <las> Finin - present
17:06:57 <las> Gibbons - present
17:07:02 <las> Hayes - present
17:07:06 <las> Heflin _present
17:07:08 <las> Hendler present
17:07:12 <las> Helman -absent
17:07:14 <las> horrocks present
17:07:17 <las>  hurley absent
17:07:22 <las> inazelli present
17:07:26 <las> jeckyl absent
17:07:28 <las> klein present
17:07:37 <las> kohasa ? absent
17:07:41 <las> kratsova absent
17:07:44 <las> lassila regrets
17:07:48 <ora> ora is on IRC but cannot join on the phone yet
17:07:53 <las> menci absent
17:07:57 <las> mcguinness present
17:08:01 <las> miller regrets
17:08:05 <las> oberst present
17:08:10 <las> patel schneider present
17:08:15 <las>  pike excused
17:08:17 <las> saboo present
17:08:28 <las> schreiber regrets also shimizu
17:08:37 <las> shintek absent
17:08:44 <las> mike smith ned smit both here
17:08:50 <las> ned needs to leavfe early
17:08:53 <las> stanton present
17:08:58 <las> stein present
17:09:04 <las> stickler absent
17:09:14 <las> werner ten keit and ten horst present
17:09:35 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #webont
17:09:42 <las> thompson present
17:09:46 <las> trasper absent
17:09:53 <las> van harmeln present
17:09:57 <las> laxman benegale absent
17:10:02 <las> voles absent
17:10:09 <las> dieter fensel absent
17:10:33 <las> * las promises next time (if she knows she's scribing) to have
the list in front of her!
17:10:48 <las> JAH:  agenda change (given soem people need to leave early)
17:11:17 <las> JAH:  First agenda item is volunteers for document editing/use
cases.  These seem to be converging, so let's divvy up the job.
17:11:39 <las> JAH:  We got a bunch of use cases, categorized them, ....  Jeff
Heflin came up with three that JAH has renamed:
17:12:01 <las> JAH:  Resource management, interoperability, agents.
17:12:18 <las> JAH:  THose cover most of the use cases, plus a fourth that cut
across use cases/requirements.
17:13:21 <las> JAH:  We need four volunteers to head each area (plus additional
volunteers in each area) to get together and propose how to outline use cases,
identify critical issues.  Their action:  within next 2 weeks, need to produce a
1-2page outline of each use case area, what they're going to concentrate on.
17:13:55 <DanC> for future reference, a handy way to do this is to copy the WG
membership list from the web page into a text editor, then write Y/N/R/E at the
beginning of each line
17:13:59 <las> Subsequent action item will be to produce descriptions of these
use cases in more detail.
17:14:01 <DanC> (this = roll call)
17:14:11 <JosD> JosD has joined #webont
17:14:23 <las> Roll call:  thanks, but i didn't have time to call up the list of
17:14:43 <las> LAS:  Timetable isn't aggressive enough to get it done in time.
17:15:04 <las> JAH:  Will use whatever timetable we can, want final report for
17:15:18 <las> JAH:  Gus Schreiber has volunteered to coordinate collection
17:15:24 <las> DanC:  DId he say by when?
17:15:31 <las> JAH:  Not his job to produce, just to coordinate.
17:15:41 <las> DanC:  Disagree....need to write up.
17:15:44 <las> +Ora
17:15:57 <las> JAH:  No, need to coordinate among possible use cases.
17:16:06 <las> DanC:  Can't produce draft on what's gone by?
17:16:22 <las> * las missed what Pat says.
17:16:36 <las> JAH:  Maybe.  I suggested one week.
17:17:00 <las> Leo:  I will do interoperability.
17:17:07 <las> JAH:  Web services?
17:17:16 <las> Stephan:  I will do web services.
17:17:21 <las> JAH:  CRosscutting technologies.
17:17:29 <las> Pat Hayes:  Say a bit more?
17:17:46 <las> JAH:  In the email.  Versioning, ....   things all might want to
take advantage of, but not requirements of a specific area.
17:17:50 <las> JAH:  Jeff?
17:17:56 <las> Jeff Heflin:  OK.
17:18:03 <las> Deborah McG:  I'll do w/Jeff.
17:18:13 <las> JAH:  Leads on all four.
17:18:19 <mdean_> I'll be speaking from slides at
17:18:24 <las> ACTION:  Leads will produce outline of area as above.
17:18:43 <las> ?:  If we want to participate, should we just contact the leads?
17:19:53 <las> DanC:  Yes, contact coordination people.  There's a mailing list
called www-archive@w3.org....If you cc to this, it creates a web-visible place
that can also be made public...it's a way to have private conversations that can
be made public (or you can cc www-webont-wg).
17:19:58 <las> JAH:  Who wants to be involved?
17:20:06 <las> JAH:  collections
17:20:12 <las> Mike Smith
17:20:17 <las> Steven Boswell
17:20:20 <las> Nick Gibbons
17:20:31 <las> JAH:  interoperability of sources
17:20:40 <las> Pat Hayes
17:20:44 <las> Dan Connolly
17:20:45 <las> Mike Dean
17:20:52 <las> Herman ter Horst
17:20:58 <las> JAH will keep an eye on all.
17:21:04 <las> JAH:  web services/agents
17:21:08 <las> Ora Lassila
17:21:10 <las> Tim Finin
17:21:14 <las> Lynn Thompson
17:21:17 <las> Mike Dean
17:21:32 <las> JAH:  technology and...
17:21:49 <las> Jeff:  general requirements/supporting requirements
17:22:02 <las> Deborah:  I have a list of requirements for ontology based
17:22:06 <las> Ned ?
17:22:12 <las> Jeremy Carroll
17:22:16 <las> Pat Hayes
17:22:21 <las> Dan Connolly
17:22:33 <las> DanC tries to volunteer Jos de Roos.
17:22:41 <las> assented?
17:22:45 <DanC> I think so.
17:22:55 <DanC> Jos?
17:23:02 <las> JAH:  anyone else want to volunteer?
17:23:21 <las> Mike Dean takes over....
17:23:52 <las> Go to www.daml.org and do a search on webont (or go straight to
17:23:58 <las> Not yet in the briefings.
17:24:02 <JosD> yes Dan,great
17:24:17 <DanC> indeed: http://www.daml.org/2001/11/webont-tour/Overview.html
17:24:41 <DanC> Mike, keep in mind not everybody here speaks English. Slowly and
clearly, please.
17:25:22 <DanC> slide 2: http://www.daml.org/2001/11/webont-tour/slide2-0.html
17:25:49 <DanC> Mike, is that right? anybody can join the joint-committee
17:26:24 <las> Darpa Agent Markup Language funded by US DOD for past 15
months....daml.org is website for program but open to everyone.
17:26:25 <las> From the overview, click on DAML+OIL....language specific stuff.
17:26:29 <las> OIL is largely european technology
17:26:29 <las> DAML+OIL currently maintained by the joint committee (homepage on
17:26:29 <las> telecon logs, etc.
17:26:29 <las> one slight caveat....email list is limited to members (spam
reduction) but non-member traffic can be sent with a moderator delay.
17:26:32 <las> Next slide details about darpa-funded research teams....(Slide
3-0, DAML program information)
17:27:06 <DanC> Jim? pls be sure pointers to presentation materials are in the
agenda from now on
17:27:30 <DanC> "IOW"
17:27:31 <DanC> ?
17:27:39 <DanC> where is he?
17:27:48 <DanC> I speak English and I can hardly follow. Mike? hello? can you
see this?
17:29:14 <las> Mike took us to the program participants page, a list of all the
funded projects.  Now we're back on the 3d slide with a list of info about
different aspects of the project.
17:29:28 <las> Still on slide 3-0 (info about the DAML research program):  DAML
17:29:44 <las> There is a new release of DAML-S as of yesterday.  This will be
relevant to those interested in agents.
17:29:59 <las> There is a list of information on new events in the DAML program.

17:30:16 <las> JAH:  Webont participants probably want to subscribe to Hot DAML
17:30:37 <las> JAH:  low volume (every 6 weeks).  Also all welcome to contribute
to the newsletter.
17:30:57 <las> mdean resumes:  Next slide 4-0, Daml ontology library.
17:31:14 <las> Clearinghouse for ontologies people wish to public.
17:31:31 <las> A lot were seeded by participants int he DAML program, sometimes
translated from other ontologies.
17:31:36 <las> * las missed how many, how large
17:31:45 <las> http://www.daml.org/2001/11/webont-tour/slide4-0.html
17:32:03 <las> This slide has some examples, e.g., how many include info on
17:32:17 <las> JAH:  I've heard recently that some submitted ontologies aren't
showing up.  How do you add one?
17:32:34 <ora> unfortunately I have to leave the telecon now (short visit :-)
17:32:36 <las> Mdean:  There is a submission page for the crawler separate from
the ontology library....you need to do both.
17:32:40 <las> -ora
17:33:03 <las> mdean:  24 hour delay for a library to appear in the website.
17:33:06 <DanC> Hmm... is the stuff that gets collected from
http://www.daml.org/ontologies/submit.html available in DAML? can I submit in
17:33:19 <DanC> "the bottom there"? where?
17:33:34 <las> mdean:  we try to gather some statistics on the
ontologies....http://www.daml.org/ontologies/features shows a summary.
17:33:41 <ora> ora has left #webont
17:33:43 <las> "the bottom" of slide 4.
17:33:50 <DanC> right..thx
17:34:09 <las> Moving on to 5-0 about the DAML crawler....sort of like a google
for daml....collects daml content from sites (currently 45 sites)....
17:34:32 <las> If you submit to the ontology library, it's automatically
harvested by the crawler (so you don't need to submit both)
17:35:06 <las> The collected results are available for other projects to use
(pointed to from this slide,
17:35:15 <las> Also querying (some egs on slide)
17:35:32 <las> Next slide, DAML tools
17:35:43 <las> first link is a set of pages that list tools developed to deal
with DAML.
17:35:55 <las> http://www.daml.org/tools#project
17:36:14 <las> Also a tools wishlist
17:36:46 <las> * las thinks that this particular way of Mike preparing the
slides in advance and me trying to retype them into the minutes is less than
fully effective.
17:37:10 <las> Wishlist is tracked to know whether things are being
implemented.  Submissions welcome to tools wishlist.
17:37:22 <las> 7-0 DAML applications
17:37:31 <las> If I have a language like this, what can I actually do with this?

17:37:43 <las> Ultimately want this to evolve into use cases, what worked and
what didn't work, ....
17:37:54 <las> Design patterns wanted....
17:38:27 <las> Helps if it's a web-based app someone can actually go to, but
internal apps are also useful if people can learn from the idea rather than
playing with the implementation.
17:38:48 <las> http://www.daml.org/2001/11/webont-tour/slide8-0.html is about
some of the specific tools that might be useful for folks in this group.
17:39:13 <las> DAML validator takes a page w/DAML content and checks for
consistency w/the ontology it was developed in.  Like XML validator, sort -of.
17:39:37 <las> Checks cardinality constraints, looks for class definitions, ....

17:40:15 <las> There are a couple of viewers for DAML contents listed on this
slide including one in Java and one for the palm.
17:40:55 <las> A couple of tools from ontology library will show you what's in
an ontology....dumpont will show you what's in an ontlogy, hyperDAML provides
links to definitions for any instance.  Examples on pages referenced here.
17:41:13 <las> While I have a captive audience, I thought I'd talk about a
couple of tools that are work in progress (slide 9-0)
17:41:21 <las> http://www.daml.org/2001/11/webont-tour/slide9-0.html
17:42:00 <las> Dynamic models:  most pages take DAML input and put it in memory
or dump to knowledge base to query....here i am exploiting possiblity of dynamic
retrieval...couple tools here based on that.
17:42:12 <las> very simple to do, hopefully of general use.
17:42:34 <las> another that's not on the page yet is something that uses monarch
graph to build the graph structure by clickling on object dynamically.
17:42:43 <las> (alot of tools using jena)
17:43:09 <las> Jeremy Carroll from HP:   Planning a new release in Jan, get in
touch if you want your stuff integrated....
17:43:25 <las> JAH:  New JENA release would be great to put into HotDAML
17:43:35 <las> Jeremy:  Design review, stopgap
17:44:02 <las> mdean:  found jena very useful.  toolkit developed by hplabs.
best java api for rdf/daml content.  next release will be even better.
17:44:10 <DanC> * DanC wonders if Hendler is here in #webont; nope. no wonder he
was getting ahead of the scribe during roll call
17:44:24 <las> html front end is for showing what daml content will look like
when it's integrated into web pages.
17:45:01 <las> going to nyse site, want to do airport codes.
17:45:39 <las> daml agenda is a very simple app to describe a meeting....big
thing is uses xml schema data types to compute sequence of meeting, times for
the presenters....
17:46:01 <las> first app I know of that does computation w/xml data types.
17:46:03 <las> http://www.daml.org/2001/11/webont-tour/slide10-0.html
17:46:24 <las> more information:  search capability (should add search engines)
and roadmaps for selected audiences.
17:46:50 <las> http://www.daml.org/2001/11/webont-tour/slide11-0.html
17:47:06 <las> JAH:  It would be very useful to put this presentation within a
single click of the homepage.
17:48:16 <las> LAS:  Scribing for someone who's not looking at the channel is
17:48:35 <las> DanC:  focus on the Q&A; important ideas should be in the
17:48:40 <las> * las wishes she'd known that.
17:48:50 <DanC> sorry, lynn
17:48:53 <las> mdean:  shared screen technology?
17:48:58 <las> danc:  not necessarily.
17:49:05 <las> JAH:  Is this chat logged?
17:49:10 <las> DanC:  yes.
17:49:26 <las> JAH:  Those of you who want to see the chat afterwards can get to
it from the webont home page.
17:49:43 <las> * las also wishes she'd known she was scribing *before* the
meeting as she'd have gotten some stuff ready.
17:50:17 <las> Frank VH:  Go to google, type in daml+oil, get walkthrough (or go
straight to ) http://www.daml.org/2001/03/daml+oil-walkthru.html
17:50:45 <las> (all Frank unless indicated):  I will go through highlights, not
line by line.
17:51:03 <las> Walkthrough is an english-annotated version of a daml-code file
also available from the parent page.
17:51:22 <las> Jump to first section, setting up namespaces.  What's intro'd
there is a shorthand for long urls.
17:51:47 <las> Jump to housekeeping, meta-information about the ontology (name,
version, ...)
17:52:03 <las> import statement includes other ontologies into this
one....there's no formal definition yet (problem).
17:52:13 <las> Real Stuff starts in next section, called Classes.
17:52:23 <las> One of key modelling mechanisms is classes
17:52:48 <las> First statement defines a class called animal.  Animal is really
a local URI (i.e. a uri local to this document).
17:53:03 <las> Every class in a daml ontology has a uri on the web.
17:53:12 <las> comments have no formal meaning, but could be useful to human
17:53:34 <las> ?:  Are these labels human-readable?
17:53:45 <las> ?:  How do I know that they are English?
17:53:54 <las> DanC:  There's a mechanism, but it's problematic.
17:54:20 <las> Frank:  First example just names the class; simplest way to
define.  Next example uses a subclass to define....uses a URI to refer to other
17:54:43 <DanC> re language: cf rdfms-xmllang: Why isn't xml:lang information
represented within the RDF data
17:54:43 <DanC>      model?
17:54:46 <las> Third example (female) is similar to male, but also has a
requiremtn that it's disjoitn with male.
17:55:00 <las> Class Man has two superclasses (multiple inheritance).
17:55:05 <DanC> lynn, you probably needn't minute when he reads from the
17:56:15 <las> JAH:  Man = subclass of person, male    vs.    man = person whose
sex is male.
17:56:23 <las> Ian:  Standard KR issue.
17:56:36 <las> JAH:  Just want to say that this is *a* way of defining male, not
*the* way.
17:57:01 <las> Frank:  Interesting to note that man is defined as a subclass of
person without person being defined....that's fine.
17:57:15 <DanC> [which it says in the document ;-]
17:57:21 <las> * las is having trouble telling when Frank's reading and when
he's extrapolating.
17:57:34 <las> PJH:  the word "defines" worries me....
17:58:13 <DanC> ----- section: Defining Properties
17:58:15 <las> Frank:  Yes, we're stating properties about these classes, but no
claim is made that these are the only properties or definitional
properties....this is intentional so we can define some aspects here and other
aspects elsewhere.
17:59:44 <las> * las is trying not to type the parts of this presentation that
are contained in what she modestly thinks is a pretty darn good document
18:01:18 <las> Frank:  datatype properties separate from resource-valued
18:01:24 <las> DanC:  Some of us don't like this.
18:01:43 <las> ?:  Is it the case that domain can be unspecified, eg. a house
could have a shoe size?
18:01:47 <las> A: Yes.
18:02:19 <las> JAH:  RDF Core group is grappling with datatype properties.  When
they've concluded, we need to wait until they've come up with their decision and
see if we want to adopt it.
18:02:31 <las> PJH:  IT's turning out to be a much bigger problem than
18:02:41 <las> ?:  Is unique property a subclass of datatype property?
18:02:52 <las> * las apologizes for not catching names....
18:03:01 <las> Frank:  In this case, shoe size is a unique property.
18:03:17 <las> Same ?er:  I understand what it's saying, but not how it's saying
18:03:37 <DanC> ------ Defining property restrictions
18:03:37 <las> Frank:  Want to take the question off-line.  It's complicated.
18:07:01 <las> ...description logic idiom....defining restriction, implicitly
defining unnamed class of all things that meet this restriction, then saying
this (animal) is a subclass of the implicitly defined class.
18:07:01 <JosD> JosD has quit
18:07:11 <las> DanC:  also an artifact of trying to wedge into XML syntax.
18:07:59 <las> Frank continues....some people have more than one shoe size,
18:08:38 <las> ?:  Class definitions in DAML+OIL, are they defined as in
description logics or simply called out?
18:08:48 <las> Frank:  That's what Pat asked:  NOT sufficient, just necessary.
18:09:51 <las> Ian:  As well as subclassOf, there's sameClassAs....so you can
either make it a subset or definitionally the same as.  You can use as many as
you want of either.  In Description Logics, you can have only one subclass or
18:10:17 <las> Frank:  There's a similar example later on w/SameClassAs, which
has the effect Rudiger (sp?) was alluding to.
18:10:26 <las> * las apologizes again.
18:11:31 <IanH> What I said was that in "old fashioned" DLs you can only have
one axiom per name - "modern" DLs are like DAML+OIL in this respect.
18:11:56 <las> * las missed the question.....
18:12:57 <las> Pat:  The language is defined carefully so that it's impossible
to put constraints from the daml language on the objects in the domain and
18:13:13 <las> ?:  To say that two things are symmetric, could you use inverseOf
(property is its own inverse).
18:13:16 <las> Frank:  Yes.
18:13:35 <las> Same ?:  How would you say that a property is reflexive?
18:13:40 <las> Frank:  I don't think you can.
18:14:35 <las> JAH:  WOuld like to let Frank keep going, minimize questions.
Next week we can take questions about the language for Frank/Ian.  (Time
18:14:51 <las> ------
18:14:52 <las> Notations for classes
18:14:59 <timfinin> The "missed question" was mine.  I asked if uniqueProperty
worked for both bjectproperties and dataproperties.
18:15:14 <las> * las thanks timfinin :o)
18:16:02 <IanH> Answer to Tim's question is yes
18:16:27 <las> * las thanks ianh, too!
18:17:06 <las> ?:  Sometimes I'm confused about when to use about
18:17:44 <las> Frank:  Important to realize that you can have statements about
the same thing in many different places in the file or in multiple files.  There
is a notational convention that the "first" or "primary" mention uses "id=" and
others use "about=".
18:17:56 <las> same ?er:  So it's just for human readers?
18:18:07 <las> Frank:  Yes.  I'm not even sure that in the SW it makes sense to
18:18:17 <las> same ?:  and it's not clear what primary means....
18:18:36 <las> ------ Using User-defined Datatypes
18:18:49 <las> Main point:  You can use xml schema data types.
18:19:12 <las> Skipping details....
18:19:27 <las> -----
18:19:27 <las> Defining individuals
18:21:00 <las> * las again missed the sense of the question....
18:21:13 <las> Frank:  You could say that the class is built as the disjoint
union of the other classes.
18:21:35 <las> DanC:  There isn't any technical limitation to putting classes
inside asClasses.
18:21:53 <las> Ian:  Then you're stepping outside the defined semantics.
18:22:05 <las> Frank calls the question, continues with the individuals.
18:22:07 <DanC> wow. I didn't know that. There sure are a lot of restrictions in
DAML+OIL that I've been blissfully unaware of.
18:22:55 <las> JAH:  Let me point out that the language allows using things
(properties, classes) across files and ontologies, but then we may not always be
able to determine what it ought to mean.  They're all just uris, after all.
18:23:23 <las> JAH:  Looking in the data in the DAML website, people do this
without using import, just by referencing other uris.
18:23:53 <las> Frank:  Also my slide set succinctly summarizes the highlights
(pointer in email, also http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/DAML+OIL-overview.pdf
18:24:37 <las> JAH:  Chair's note....if you go to the DAML reference document,
tehre are a number of constructs not in the walkthrough.  Is the language in the
walkthrough sufficient, or do our use cases require additional machinery?
18:24:59 <las> JAH:  We need to say what we think is the right starting point
for us.
18:25:15 <las> JAH:  Thanks Frank, thinks we had main conversations we needed,
18:25:31 <las> JAH:  Those in use case areas, start exchanging mail to figure
out how you're proceeding.
18:25:45 <las> ACTION:  CHairs begin conversations w/deliverable next week of
draft of how you're proceeding.
18:25:51 <las> Guus sent to the mailing list a suggestion.
18:25:58 <las> * las wonders whether the action item is accurate.
18:26:12 <JosD> JosD has joined #webont
18:26:24 <las> JAH:  All working group members:  Walkthrough came from member
request.  Please request other things that'd be useful.
18:26:42 <las> Pat:  I'd like to hear from the "newcomers" what they'd like to
18:26:49 <las> JAH:  We're all newcomers.
18:27:05 <las> ?:  Are drafts on our website member confidential?
18:27:19 <las> DanC:  The proceedings of this group are public.
18:27:38 <las> JAH:  Next meeting one week hence.  Adjourned.
18:27:45 <las> DanC:  allocate scribe now?
18:27:54 <las> JAH:  I remove adjournment until scribe volunteer.
18:28:00 <las> DanC:  Please?
18:28:13 <las> Connolly volunteers in the absence of anyone else.
18:28:19 <las> JAH:  Thanks, Dan.  G;bye all,
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18:30:24 <las> * las wonders what her further duties are wrt the irc
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Received on Thursday, 6 December 2001 16:04:37 GMT

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