RE: How to be 3.0 browser compliant and still validate?

From: Kevin Berkheiser (
Date: Sun, Aug 08 1999

From: "Kevin Berkheiser" <>
To: "W3C Validator" <>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:48:50 -0400
Message-ID: <>
Subject: RE: How to be 3.0 browser compliant and still validate?

Actually on this end I did not notice how Word 9 sent its html.  Next
time I will send text only.  I use Outlook 2K to do my email and
Netscape for most of my browsing.

I wanted to get the author's site to actually validate using the HTML 4
Transitional DTD.

I was hoping someone out there would know a way to do the same thing the
author was doing without CSS since that would break in Navigator 3.  The
author is adamant about not breaking the site in 3.0 browsers.

It is too bad that HTML 4 validation eliminates the users ability to
give their page a consistent look since different browser
implementations have different default settings for things like margins.
I have tried in vain to get some popular sites to validate and display
the W3C validation logo on their sites.  The problem stems from this
inability to validate and keep the pages looking consistent in the
different browsers.

Thanks for looking at the errors though.  Guess I am out of luck until
the 3.0 browsers become less common on the net.  At what point should
web developers give up on outdated browsers?  I wish more web developers
would just say, Opera 3.6 or a 4+ IE or Nav.   It is impossible to
support new features if you must remain compatible with all old

It's a pity that HTML 4 is nearly 2 years old now and there are still no
browsers out that 100% implement it.  CSS is so inconstant in the
existing browsers that it is basically worthless.  Navigator 5 probably
won't enter beta till November and probably won't be released in
non-beta form until right after the first of the year.  Once that
happens CSS will become more useful since at least most of CSS is
implemented in IE 4 and 5.  There will still be problems unfortunately
since Navigator 5 will implement all of CSS 1 and of course IE only
implements the parts Microsoft wanted to implement.  But at least it
will get rid of that crappy support in Navigator 4.  

XHTML 1 has been in last call now for 2 months.  I was hoping to see it
become a proposed recommendation soon.  The problem with XHTML right now
is that I noticed the web server at that I use actually
capitalizes the first letter on each line of my code when sent to the
validator.  This of course breaks XHTML since it must be lowercase.  My
oh my will the standards problems ever end.

Kevin Berkheiser

-----Original Message-----
[]On Behalf Of Liam Quinn
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 12:09
To: Kevin Berkheiser; W3C Validator
Subject: Re: How to be 3.0 browser compliant and still validate?

At 11:34 AM 08/08/99 -0400, Kevin Berkheiser wrote:
>         I was trying to help a web designer with his site and we are
>with the following errors:           Error at line 10:     """""" left

>                                          there is no attribute

>                             "" (explanation...)           Error at
>10:     """"""" topmar
>is no attribute

Wow, I hope this isn't the Microsoft Future.  Did you notice how
Word 9" generated a blank line:

<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle15><font size=3 color="#ffffcc"
face="Trebuchet MS"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if

I'd suggest using a more recipient-friendly mail program.

To answer your question, you can use non-standard attributes in a custom
DTD.  See <>.

>Is there any way of keeping the current look and
>feel of this site working in 3.0 browsers and still validate?

3.0 browsers don't support MARGINWIDTH or MARGINHEIGHT.  Except for
they also don't support a BACKGROUND attribute on TD.

The standard way to do what you want would be to use style sheets.  See

Liam Quinn