W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-talk@w3.org > March to April 1995

libWWW 3.0 and events

From: Anselm.BairdSmith <Anselm.Baird_Smith@inria.fr>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:54:52 +0100
Message-Id: <199503010854.JAA09031@maillol.inria.fr>
To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch

I have been implementing a scheme interface to the 3.0 version of
libWWW library (for more informations on this, have a look at
http://www.inria.fr/koala/abaird/oscheme/oscheme.html), and hitted a
problem I don't know how to solve.

For the time being I have replaced the HTEvent.c module with my own
version of it, which is, as I understand, the recommended way of doing
it. However, I would now like to integrate both my scheme/Motif
extension and the scheme/WWW extension together. Hence I need to plug
libWWW events with the standard XtAppAddInput() stuff.

Looking at the code, the only way I can do this is to replace the
HTThread.c file, in order to rewrite the HTThreadState() function, and
make it call the Xt specific stuff. However, modules that are to be
replaced in libWWW are usually advertized as such, and this one is
not. So before doing it this way, I was wondering if someone here had
any experiences to share regarding this problem.

Thanks for your attention,

Anselm

-----
Anselm BAIRD-SMITH (Anselm.BairdSmith@inria.fr), Koala Project, BULL/INRIA.
WWW: "http://www.inria.fr/koala/abaird.html"

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From: Martin Sjolin <marsj@ida.liu.se>
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org, www-speed@tipper.oit.unc.edu
Subject: benchmark program for HTTP server's
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[the original mail was lost during info.cern.ch downtime]
Hi,

i would like to profile my www server (or rather the CGI client),
and i'm looking around for a benchmark programs/robot which would
automate the process. Basicly, i'm looking around fore some software
which:

1. take a base URL
2. retrieves all URL in the base document, but
3. do not goes outside the server (e.g. restrict the set of
   allowed URL),
4. minimum time between HEADs/GETs,
5. runs under unix (preferable SunOS 4.1 - i have ported software
   to hp-ux/solaris 2.x/dec osf/4.3bsd/aix/ultrix/sgi/linux)

With all the HTTP severs around, I hope that some server author(s)
might have some (almost) ready-to-run software. I would write 
something quick and dirty, but i'm currently have some other priorities
(thesis writing). Of course, i will summarize to the list.

thank you,

msj
--
Martin Sj\"olin | http://www.ida.liu.se/labs/iislab/people/marsj
Department of Computer Science, LiTH, S-581 83 Link\"oping, SWEDEN 
phone : +46 13 28 24 10 | fax : +46 13 28 26 66 | e-mail: marsj@ida.liu.se 
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From: derek <derek@pipex.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:36:17 GMT
Message-Id: <199503011336.NAA04510@relay2.pipex.net>
To: chi@nb.rockwell.com
Subject: Re: Secured WWW server? Comparison?
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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> 
>    a. "Are there secured servers, other then Netscape Commerce, out there?"
I have been unable to find any that are currently available, although a number
are in beta testing.

> 
>    b. "Has anyone done any comparison between these servers?"
>        functionality? cost? encryption mechanism used? etc...
>From what I have seen they mostly use RSA public key with DES for the bulk
encryption.

The main difference is whether they support shttp or SSL. SSL looks fine for
basic secured data transfer but doesn't support nonrepudiation which is kinda
handy if you are doing financial transactions.

Netscape do however promise to support shttp as soon as a reference
implementation becomes available.

Derek
---
Derek Harding                                                   derek@pipex.net
Webmaster and Product & Software Developer                  +44 (0) 1223 250422
PIPEX (The Public IP Exchange Ltd)           http://www.pipex.net/people/derek/
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From: Steinar Bang <steinarb@falch.no>
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Browser capability survey, anyone?
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[originally sent to www-talk@www0.cern.ch Thu, 23 Feb 95 17:48:52 +0100]

Has anyone ever done a survey of:
 1. How the different WWW-browsers parse HTML?
 2. What "dialect" of HTML they handle?
 3. What SGML-features that make them choke (processing instructions,
    comments, prematurely ending tags in attributes)
 4. What HTTP header information according to the HTTP/1.0 draft they
    can make use of? ("Link:" navigation etc.)

I crawled around the www.w3.org web a little while ago, but I didn't
find anything matching.

- Steinar
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From: rst@ai.mit.edu (Robert S. Thau)
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To: marsj@ida.liu.se
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9503011312.AA03313@obel6> (message from Martin Sjolin on Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:28:07 +0500)
Subject: Re: benchmark program for HTTP server's
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   Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:28:07 +0500
   Reply-To: marsj@ida.liu.se

   [the original mail was lost during info.cern.ch downtime]
   Hi,

   i would like to profile my www server (or rather the CGI client),
   and i'm looking around for a benchmark programs/robot which would
   automate the process. Basicly, i'm looking around fore some software
   which:

   1. take a base URL
   2. retrieves all URL in the base document, but
   3. do not goes outside the server (e.g. restrict the set of
      allowed URL),
   4. minimum time between HEADs/GETs,
   5. runs under unix (preferable SunOS 4.1 - i have ported software
      to hp-ux/solaris 2.x/dec osf/4.3bsd/aix/ultrix/sgi/linux)

I've written a logfile replay program which may be of some use to you
--- it was written on SunOS, and *ought* to be fairly portable (though
I understand that you've got to work a bit to find the right header
files on AIX).  The program takes a log in Common Log Format, and
replays the GET transactions at a user-specified rate.  (It's capable
of having multiple transactions open simultaneously, and in fact
that's the common case, up to a user-specified maximum --- NB if that
maximum exceeds the maximum number of file descriptors a single
process has open, the program will croak).

Every 100 transactions, the program reports the mean latency for those
100 transactions, and the cumulative mean latency.  (Things get a
little hairier if it can't initiate transactions because more than the
user-set maximum were in progress).

The program has some limitations --- it doesn't try to replay POSTs
(there isn't enough information logged to do it properly), and it
doesn't deal with HTTP authentication (so it's not useful at sites
which make heavy use of that feature).  However, some people at other
sites have gotten good service out of it.

If you want to look it over, see ftp://ftp.ai.mit.edu/pub/users/rst/monkey.c

rst
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Date:         Wed, 01 Mar 95 12:09:38 CST
From: Rick Troth <TROTH@ua1vm.ua.edu>
Subject:      Re: Submit button in forms revisited
To: wmperry@spry.com, Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www0.cern.ch>
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>  Well, the only other ones I know of that run on more than one OS are the
>linemode browser (no forms support), and emacs-w3.  I think there is one
>VMS specific browser, and one VM specific also, but I've never seen them.

        Somebody's been doing pretty well on his homework!   (I'm impressed,
Bill;  keep it up)    There are actually  >two<  VM browsers,  Charlotte,
from Carl Forde at BC Systems in Victoria,  and Albert,  from David Nessl
at the University of Florida.   References can be found in the page at

                http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/vmcms.html

        [convincing pitch for Emacs-w3 omitted for brevity]

>-Bill P.

--
Rick Troth <troth@ua1vm.ua.edu>, Houston, Texas, USA
http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~troth/
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From: mwm@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 12:13:35 PST
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica
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> >  Well, the only other ones I know of that run on more than one OS are the
> >linemode browser (no forms support), and emacs-w3.  I think there is one
> >VMS specific browser, and one VM specific also, but I've never seen them.

I missed the start of this, so I'm not sure what "Run on more than one
OS" means. We tried to sell our changes to NCSA X Mosaic to make it
run on the Amiga back to NCSA, but NCSA seemed to have political
problems attached to even admitting that it existed.

I think the results would have been like the linemode browser - it
builds from one source tree with conditional code and a couple of
OS-specific interface files, and runs on more than one OS.

This not quite Emacs-w3, where the results of a "make" can run on more
than one OS.

	<mike


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To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch, Gleason Sackman <sackman@plains.nodak.edu>
From: mlmandal@hlc.net (Matthew L. Mandalek)
Subject: New Pages
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Check It Out.....


We have gotten the PenPal, Romance, and Classified ads done!!!!!!

http://www.start.com/start

the go to the classifed section...


Let me know what you think

Matt Mandalek
mandalek@hlc.net

===================================
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sub: www-talk

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Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 01:01:13 EST
From: "Mike Paciello, VIIS: 381-1831" <paciello@shane.enet.dec.com>
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Apparently-To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Looking for Disabilities Web Site Host
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Hi:

I  would like to inquire whether any institutation, foundation, or organization
attached to this list would be interested and, in a position to sponsor a Web
Site repository for assistive technology information for people with
disabilities? I have received several requests for this repository and
several inquiries by organizations that might be in a position to help me fund
and host the effort. Right now, I'm looking at all the possibilities.

If I could afford it, I would certainly sponsor this myself. I am willing to
moderate and maintain the site. The purpose of the site would be to provide a 
total information repository for people with disabilities.

If you are interested, please send me e-mail at: paciello@shane.enet.dec.com

Thanks for your interest,

Regards,


Michael G. Paciello
Digital Equipment Corporation
Program Manager
Vision Impaired Information Services (VIIS)
110 Spit Brook Road
Nashua, NH. USA  03062
Phone: (603) 881-1831
FAX: (603) 881-0120
Internet: Paciello@Shane.Enet.Dec.Com
President: International Committee for Accessible Document Design (ICADD)
ViceChair: Electronics Industries Association/Assistive Devices Division 
Member: Project EASI
Member: Disabilities Access for X (DACx)
Member: NCSA Mosaic Access Project (MAP)
Member: Universal Access Project (UAP)
eturn-Path: Carl_Christensen@inmarsat.org 
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To: www-talk@www19.w3.org
Subject: In the picture
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     I'm putting together a colour brochure on the benefits of having a 
     presence on the web.
     
     To support the text, I want to show some examples of web sites. I'd 
     like to capture various interesting home pages. Are there any web 
     designers out there who would like me to consider including any of 
     their work (royalty free) ? 
     
     
     Regards
     Carl Christensen  

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From: John Franks <john@math.nwu.edu>
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Subject: WN listserv
To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch
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There is now a listserv available for discussion of WN related
issues.  You can subscribe by sending a message to 

	listserv@listserv.acns.nwu.edu

containing the line:

	subscribe wn-maint Your Name

with "Your Name" appropriately replaced.  After you subscribe messages
can be sent to this list by e-mailing them to wn-maint@listserv.acns.nwu.edu.

WN is an HTTP server which runs on most popular UNIX platforms and is
freely available under the GNU public license.  It offers a variety of
features not available from CERN or NCSA httpd.  If you are not
familiar with WN you can find out more by consulting
<URL:http://hopf.math.nwu.edu/overview.html>.

John Franks
john@math.nwu.edu
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Subject: Re: In the picture
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Hello there.

While the design of my homepage is nothing exciting, what I am using it
for may be of interest.  I offer something called The HTML CyberClass -- a
"virtual class" on HTML and related topics taught over the Internet.  My
homepage both explains The HTML CyberClass and links to an outline which
provides the structure for the actual class.  While the class itself has 
a cost of $150 (and is conducted via a private email list), the outline 
is available as a service to anyone on the WWW interested in learning 
HTML.  The URL is http://www.halcyon.com/clearnts/welcome.html

Yours,

Steve Habib Rose
Clear Nets
Developer of The HTML CyberClass

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995 Carl_Christensen@inmarsat.org wrote:

> 
>      
>      I'm putting together a colour brochure on the benefits of having a 
>      presence on the web.
>      
>      To support the text, I want to show some examples of web sites. I'd 
>      like to capture various interesting home pages. Are there any web 
>      designers out there who would like me to consider including any of 
>      their work (royalty free) ? 
>      
>      
>      Regards
>      Carl Christensen  
> 
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To: www-talk@www19.w3.org, www-html@www19.w3.org
Cc: kevinh@eit.com
Subject: hypermail archives are now searchable
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 13:12:09 -0800
From: Jay Glicksman <jay@eit.com>
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The hypermail archives of www-talk and www-html at

http://gummo.stanford.edu/html/hypermail/archives.html

are now searchable. Thanks to Kevin Hughes for the programs and the
help in setting them up.

    Jay Glicksman
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From: mau@beatles.cselt.stet.it (Maurizio Codogno)
Message-Id: <9503031540.AA12938@beatles.cselt.stet.it>
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: two-way communication in html
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As everybody of us know, html is a "monodirectional" protocol -- in the sense
that the server cannot initiate a response by itself, but it has to wait
for a http request from the client.

(no, this is all wrong -- what I want to say is that with a HTML browser
you have to click to reload a page, otherwise it doesn't happen anything).

I (pronunciation: "my boss") would like to investigate how the thing could
be changed, in order to have a real "live" environment. Supposing for the
moment to stick with unix systems and reasonable root powers :-), the first 
ideas which came to me were the following:

(1) add a background process which polls every x seconds the server to check
    for a new (content of a) page
(2) try and integrate http server functionalities in the browser, to get 
    announcement of new data
(3) start a http client&server in the local machine and devise some way
    to communicate between the browser and the http daemon.

Now solution (1) is of course really simple to code, and it work fine for most 
applications, but it could generate unnecessary load, and besides I don't
like it very much. Solution (2) seems to mix two very different things at 
a logical level, and it should be avoided. Solution (3) in a certain sense
just moves the problem, since we have yet to think about how to make 
an interaction between the browser and the http daemon, but at least this
has become a "local" solution.

What do people think about it? All answers are welcome, from "HTML is not
the Right Means to do that, forget it" to "there is already such and such 
which makes what you propose". Just don't say "You are an idiot who is 
not even good to write in English", please - I do already know it, thanks.

ciao, .mau.
eturn-Path: stekelen@knmi.nl 
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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 15:50:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Frans Stekelenburg <stekelen@knmi.nl>
To: Multiple recipients of WWW-talk list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: NCSA httpd 1.3p
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Hi,

Does anybody has httpd compiled for DEC Ultrix?

I'm trying to, but it gets stuck on 2 parsing errors :




make
gcc  -c -g -DULTRIX http_config.c
In file included from httpd.h:339,
                 from http_config.c:9:
/usr/local/include/netdb.h:65: parse error
In file included from httpd.h:341,
                 from http_config.c:9:
/usr/local/include/arpa/inet.h:67: parse error
*** Error code 1

Anyone?

With regards,
                                                    
 frans stekelenburg                  <mailto:stekelen@knmi.nl>          
 Helpdesk KNMI        tel.: +31-30-206732  fax : +31-30-210407     +
______________________________________________________________   (|||)  
                                                                ======= 
  Koninklijk Nederlands Meteorlogisch Instituut                 K N M I 
  Postbus 210, 3730 AE De Bilt - Nederland  *  info@knmi.nl     =======  
                                                         
  -= We can't MAKE weather. If we can it would be better =-

eturn-Path: trudyl@kitchen.mcad.edu 
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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 08:40:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Trudy Lane <trudyl@loft.mcad.edu>
Subject: Re: In the picture
To: Carl_Christensen@inmarsat.org
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I recently finished an exhibition web site of the work of the graphic
designer P. Scott Makela. -- it is at:  http://www.grfn.org/~makela/ the
statistics are a great way to see who is, and how many people are
accessing your page -- this would be a great thing to promote to those
people.  +)

Trudy Lane.
trudyl@mtn.org

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To: mau@beatles.cselt.stet.it
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: two-way communication in html 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Mar 1995 10:51:34 +0500."
             <9503031540.AA12938@beatles.cselt.stet.it> 
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 1995 12:01:14 -0500
From: "W. Scott Meeks" <meeks@osf.org>
Content-Length: 1749

>From www-talk@www10.w3.org Fri Mar  3 11:42:22 1995
>From: mau@beatles.cselt.stet.it (Maurizio Codogno)
>Subject: two-way communication in html
[...]
>I (pronunciation: "my boss") would like to investigate how the thing could
>be changed, in order to have a real "live" environment. Supposing for the
>moment to stick with unix systems and reasonable root powers :-), the first 
>ideas which came to me were the following:
>
[...]
>(3) start a http client&server in the local machine and devise some way
>    to communicate between the browser and the http daemon.
>
[...]
>a logical level, and it should be avoided. Solution (3) in a certain sense
>just moves the problem, since we have yet to think about how to make 
>an interaction between the browser and the http daemon, but at least this
>has become a "local" solution.

In a nutshell, here's what we've done to solve this.  By taking advantage of
the http_proxy protocol, we can insert little mini-servers in between the
browser and the real servers.  For the most part, these little mini-servers
(okay, call them agents if you really want) just pass the request/response
stream between the browser and servers.  However, they can also filter,
modify, and take external actions based on what they see in the stream.  In
addition we have a browser prototyping testbed into which we've
incorporated a communications channel that the agents can use to inform or
control the browser.

Take a look at http://riwww.osf.org:8001/www/waiba/index.html for more
info.   Also look at http://riwww.osf.org:8001/www/index.html for
information on other WWW projects at the OSF Research Institute.

W. Scott Meeks           
OSF Research Institute   
meeks@osf.org            
(617) 621-7229           


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From: ryan@odouls.stx.com (Pat Ryan)
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Subject: Copyrights on WWW protocols?
To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 15:08:01 -0500 (EST)
Cc: ryan@odouls.stx.com (Pat Ryan)
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Organization: Hughes STX Corporation, EOSDIS IMS V0 Development Team
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Hi,
	I'm in the process of writing a book for PTR Prentice-Hall
tentatively entitled "Programming the World Wide Web: Protocols and
Implementation".  It's a book on how the Web actually works as opposed to
being another book on HTML or how to get on the Net.

	I need to find out what, if any, copyrights exist on the protocol
documents archived at W3C.  Specifically, I'm working the chapter on
HTTP/1.0 right now.  I realize that the spec is an "Internet draft" and
subject to change without notice.  During my examination of the protocol, I
need to copy certain descriptions almost word-for-word.  My "value-added"
will be lots of examples and development of a mini HTTP server in Perl
(with apologies to Plexus).  I'll also include some discussion of current
areas of active WWW research & development.  Of course, I'll mention how
all these wonderful open standards came into being through the selfless
efforts of several individuals as well as the vigorous participation of the
USENET community.

	Now, I certainly don't want to be accused of plagiarism or get my
tush dragged into court.  At the very beginning of the chapter, I give
extensive credit to TBL as well as explain a little bit about the process
of Internet drafts, RFCs, etc.

	Whom do I contact to find out what permissions I need?  And while
I'm asking, who hold the copyrights on RFCs?  Is it IETF?  The individual
authors?

	Thanks for any help you can offer.

pat


--
                                                           patrick m. ryan
                                                    hughes stx corporation
                                         <URL:http://info.stx.com/~pryan/>
                            patrick.m.ryan.1@gsfc.nasa.gov / pryan@stx.com
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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 95 12:44:42 PST
From: vinay@eit.com (Vinay Kumar)
Message-Id: <9503032044.AA14332@eitech.eit.com>
To: mau@beatles.cselt.stet.it
Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Content-Length: 2490

Check out some of the work we have done. Shared Mosaic is being built 
to create a peer-to-peer environment for "real-time" information access.
Some documentation is available at,
	http://www.eit.com/software/mosaic/shared-mosaic.html

Right now it is human driven on remote site, but the architecture is
not tied to this specific metaphor.

Is the project done ? No not yet !
Are we still working on this ? Yes ! and will be finishing real soon now
.....:)

Enjoy,
---
 Vinay Kumar
vinay@eit.com
	"Bringing Real Time Network Media To The Desktop"
<std/disclaimer.h>
> From www-talk@www10.w3.org  Fri Mar  3 08:15:23 1995
> From: mau@beatles.cselt.stet.it (Maurizio Codogno)
> 
> As everybody of us know, html is a "monodirectional" protocol -- in the sense
> that the server cannot initiate a response by itself, but it has to wait
> for a http request from the client.
> 
> (no, this is all wrong -- what I want to say is that with a HTML browser
> you have to click to reload a page, otherwise it doesn't happen anything).
> 
> I (pronunciation: "my boss") would like to investigate how the thing could
> be changed, in order to have a real "live" environment. Supposing for the
> moment to stick with unix systems and reasonable root powers :-), the first 
> ideas which came to me were the following:
> 
> (1) add a background process which polls every x seconds the server to check
>     for a new (content of a) page
> (2) try and integrate http server functionalities in the browser, to get 
>     announcement of new data
> (3) start a http client&server in the local machine and devise some way
>     to communicate between the browser and the http daemon.
> 
> Now solution (1) is of course really simple to code, and it work fine for most 
> applications, but it could generate unnecessary load, and besides I don't
> like it very much. Solution (2) seems to mix two very different things at 
> a logical level, and it should be avoided. Solution (3) in a certain sense
> just moves the problem, since we have yet to think about how to make 
> an interaction between the browser and the http daemon, but at least this
> has become a "local" solution.
> 
> What do people think about it? All answers are welcome, from "HTML is not
> the Right Means to do that, forget it" to "there is already such and such 
> which makes what you propose". Just don't say "You are an idiot who is 
> not even good to write in English", please - I do already know it, thanks.
> 
> ciao, .mau.
> 
eturn-Path: mgodsey@medio.com 
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From: Mike Godsey <mgodsey@medio.com>
Message-Id: <199503032209.OAA09864@dns.medio.com>
Subject: Host Hiding in URL
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org (www-talk)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:09:14 -0800 (PST)
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Appologies if this is a question already discussed, or inappropriate
for this mail list.

I need to know how to setup web pages for customers, all hosted on the
same server.  I want each customer's URL to be free from the host-system's
server name.  For example, the server is www.medio.net.  I DON't want
customer's URL's to be:  http://www.medio.net/CustomerA
NOR do I want to put them on a seperate port, and run a second server
on that port.  Is there another way to do this that I'm missing.

For what it's worth, I'm using the Netscape Commerce Server.

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Mike Godsey                         mgodsey@medio.com           |
|  Medio Multimedia, Inc.                                          |
|  Redmond, WA                                                     |
|  <A HREF="http://www.Medio.Net/users/mgodsey/">Mike Godsey </A>  |
 ------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: cnw3@di.uminho.pt (Conferencia Nacional WWW)
Message-Id: <9503040039.AA22820@di.uminho.pt>
To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch
Subject: CONFERENCE: Portuguese 1st WWW Conference
Content-Length: 4719




                         WWW National Conference

                     Internet Multimedia Information



                             July 6-8, 1995
                    Minho University, Braga, Portugal



Conference Server:
                     http://www.di.uminho.pt/cnw3.html


Organized by:
             Computer Science Department of Minho University



Aims
++++

The WWW National Conference aims to analyse the state of the art of WWW 
technology, and the mid-term strategic lines of the consumer groups and 
multimedia information suppliers in the Internet.

Technological aspects will be focused, as well as the emergent applications
and strategies which condition the utilization of these applications.


Topics
++++++

  o WWW development perspectives
  o Commercial integration of WWW services: billing and certification
  o WWW services administration
  o WWW and Education
  o WWW emergent functionalities
  o Application of multimedia information systems
  o New standards in the Internet


This conference will be structured in the following:

o Technical Program
  +++++++++++++++++

We invite authors to present communications (based on submited papers), on the 
topics above, for a foresight duration of 20 minutes, followed by discussion.

o Panels
  ++++++ 

Three panels will occur addressed to identification of strategic lines of:

  o Internet Providers (service and infrastructure)
  o Software and Systems Suppliers
  o Institutionalized Groups of Users

This panels will be chaired by invited personalities of recognized 
competence in several thematic areas, and will stimulate the active 
participation of all presents.

o Exhibition of Services and Products
  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The exhibition will be centered on the presentation of equipment, systems,
software, services, literature, and other products of importance to WWW,
and consists in:

  o One exhibition area.
  o Opportunity of oral presentation.
  o Sponsoring and inclusion of information in a CD-ROM, which will be offered 
    to all participants in the conference. 


Important Dates
+++++++++++++++


+-----------------+-------------------+
| Deadline for    |                   |
| submission      |     April 23      |
| large-abstracts |                   |
+-----------------+-------------------+
| Notification of |                   |
| acceptance of   |     May 8         |
| papers          |                   |
+-----------------+-------------------+
| Deadline for    |                   |
| delivery        |     June 5        |
| full-papers     |                   |
+-----------------+-------------------+
| Conference      |     July 6-8      |
+-----------------+-------------------+


Location
++++++++

The WWW National Conference will be held in Minho University, Braga, 
Portugal.

The county of Minho is situated at the north-western corner of Portugal. 
The river Minho, which has given its name to the region, is the natural 
border between the counties of Minho, in Portugal, and Galicia in Spain.
Note that it is the European Community region with most percentage 
of young people population.

Braga, whose foundation remounts to Celtic times, assumed a relevant paper
in Roman epoch, being the meeting point for five famous Roman roads. This 
city - with more than 2.250 years - is one of the most old Christian cities, 
and is known as "The Portuguese Rome" or "The City of the Archbishops".

Minho University with more than 12.000 students is composed by several 
departments and research centres, giving great contribution to development
of north region of the country. The Computer Science Department is, since 
the beginning, in the front-line of availability and utilization of network 
services in Portugal.


Sponsoring
++++++++++

We invite potential organizations and interested companies in establishing
sponsoring protocols, to contact the conference committee organization.


Registration
++++++++++++

During the next weeks, it will be announced the final conference program, 
including details about registration and local accommodations. This 
information will be also available by WWW in the URL indicated below.


Organization
++++++++++++


o Program Committee
  +++++++++++++++++

To be announced.


o Organisation Committee
  ++++++++++++++++++++++

Jose Esgalhado Valenca   General Chair - DIUM
Carlos Baquero           DIUM
Francisco Pinto          CIUM
Jorge Portugal Andrade   DIUM
Jose Pina Miranda        DIUM


Contact
+++++++

CNW3
Departamento de Informatica
Universidade do Minho, Campus de Gualtar
4710 Braga
PORTUGAL

URL:    http://www.di.uminho.pt/cnw3.html
Phone:  +351 (53) 604470
Fax:    +351 (53) 612954
e-mail: cnw3@di.uminho.pt


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From: mag@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Tom Magliery)
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You've reached mag@ncsa.uiuc.edu.  I'll be out of town (Metadata
Workshop at OCLC in Dublin, OH) from noon Tuesday February 28 until
Friday night (March 3).  It's not clear whether I'll be able to check
my email during that time.  If not, I'll get back to you next week as
soon as I can.

mag
--
Tom Magliery ** NCSA ** 605 E Springfield ** Champaign IL 61820 ** USA
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From: etxjega@stdoca.ericsson.se (Jerry Gabrielsson TX/FD)
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Your mail regarding "" will be read when I return.

If you have something urgent, please contact...

Rolf Westerberg, ETX/TX/FD phone +46 (0)8 611 2318 
	Memonet: etxt.etxrweg@memo.ericsson.se
	  Email: etxrweg@stodca.ericsson.se  

Karin Nordin, ETX/TX/FD phone +46 (0)8 719 8656
	Memonet: etxt.etxkano@memo.ericsson.se
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I am in the UK from 24th February until the 6th March.

I may not be reading my mail so if you have anything urgent 
concerning the TERENA Technical Programme or our Document Store,
(ftp, www, gopher), please send it to:

                  tech-staff@terena.nl

If your mail is about a TERENA meeting then it should be sent to:

                  secretariat@terena.nl

Your mail regarding:

"" 

will be read when I return. (You should receive this message only
once).

Rgds,

John

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From: wei@ora.com (Pei Wei)
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To: mau@beatles.cselt.stet.it
Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
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> As everybody of us know, html is a "monodirectional" protocol -- in the sense
> that the server cannot initiate a response by itself, but it has to wait
> for a http request from the client.
> 
> (no, this is all wrong -- what I want to say is that with a HTML browser
> you have to click to reload a page, otherwise it doesn't happen anything).
> 
> I (pronunciation: "my boss") would like to investigate how the thing could
> be changed, in order to have a real "live" environment. Supposing for the
> moment to stick with unix systems and reasonable root powers :-), the first
> ideas which came to me were the following:
[...]
> What do people think about it? All answers are welcome, from "HTML is not
> the Right Means to do that, forget it" to "there is already such and such
> which makes what you propose". Just don't say "You are an idiot who is
> not even good to write in English", please - I do already know it, thanks.
> 
> ciao, .mau.

When I was experimenting at getting the HTML/Web more interactive/
proactive, here what I did to make it possible for a web page to become 
"active" on its own (not just purely responding to user's events).

*** Connected HTML with a scripting language (Viola script)

With that, you could do tons of stuff... I mean, you've basically got
the capability to program intelligence into your document.

So, for a dumb example, you could link a piece of script to your HTML 
which in effect causes the browser to update a document every N seconds.

Or, the script/agent/applet could open a connection to some kind of 
"change-notifycation" server, and upon detection of certain conditions,
the script sends a message to the browser telling it to go reload the 
document... etc etc etc.

And to make something like Internet Relay Chat on the Web, I wrote this
multi-threaded server (select() based, not OS level m.t.) which acts as a
very simple httpd and message relay.

So, it basically works this way: 

* start up ViolaWWW. 
* load a chat-applet document, via HTTP, say.
* the chat-applet gets interpreted and built by the viola interpreter.
* the chat-applet connects to the relay server (using its own very simple
  protocol), and off you go... you've got a two-way channel to communicate
  with other people also looking at the same chat-applet-page using ViolaWWW.

This demo lets you communicate with typed messages and simple picture
sketchings... well, see the paper for a screendump of the demo. 

	http://berkeley.ora.com/proj/viola/violaIntro.html

That paper's kinda out dated, but... it's there.

It's fully amazing how much wider the scope of things you could do if 
you had a scripting language in a browser. Even with a language of
very limited facilities (limited for security reasons).

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by two-way HTML. I can see situations
where it's much better to abstract away whatever we need into HTML, 
without the need for a scripting language. That'll probably happen once
we figure out and agree on what we want :)

But one of the points of going with the scripting language approach 
is that we don't know all what we're going to need, and a "programming" 
language gives you lots of flexibility to deal with new situations.


Pei Wei
(wei@ora.com)
Digital Media Group 
O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.


PS: The whole setup isn't polished enough for general release. So... But 
maybe before too long I'll get enough time and inclination to get it done :)
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Date: 4 Mar 95 20:02:00 -0600
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Netscape Navigator 1.1 beta 1 available from MCOM
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     Attn: Netscapers
     
     I don't know if this has hit the list yet, but Netscape Navigator 
     version 1.1 beta 1 is available from the MCOM ftp site.
     
     enjoy ...
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From: cheekai@ncb.gov.sg (Chin Chee-Kai)
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The recent discussion of "two-way communication over WWW" seems to be
related to an interactive problem I'm working on as well.  For discussion
and sharing purposes, I'm including a rough outline of my approach to it.

Basically, at least for my problem on hand, it is necessary to modify
both the browser to identify itself and to provide its private listening port,
and the server to "know" each browser's identity and private listening port
(like knowing friends' telephone numbers).  In other words, for an
interactive system, the server has to give some states to on-line browsers
while at the same time, not spend more network resources to servicing
browsers than what is required now (the "network-statelessness" ideal).

I've looked a bit at NCSA's recent Common Client Interface (CCI). 
On the face of it, it seems that it does not provide sufficient "binding"
between the browser and the server to meet the requirements of my
problem on hand.  But I could be wrong.
** Note: This is not to imply anything not good about it.  
         I just need a different communication model than
	 CCI's model.

I'm including the attachment below for any discussion or comments.  
It does not have complete details but should be sufficient to give an
outline of the approach.  Let me know your comments, suggestions,
criticisms, etc either through emailing to me (cheekai@ncb.gov.sg)
or discuss it over this list.  Flames will be happily absorbed to cook
my eggs :)


Chin Chee-Kai
cheekai@ncb.gov.sg
http://www.ncb.gov.sg/staff/cheekai/

-------------------------- BEGIN OF INCLUSION ---------------------------
== The Problem ==
While braving the odds and plunging into writing a WWW-based
MUD-style interactive pager, I ran up the same difficulty due
to the "monodirectional" nature of HTTP protocol.
In an interactive system such as a MUD, the server may sporadically
send messages to the client-person who is in a particular room.


== The UID Scheme ==
After thinking through, it seems a solution is possible if the
browser used to connect to the HTTP-MUD server can also attach
a unique ID for all its HTTP requests.  This unique ID (UID)
is a combination of machine type (M), OS type (O), login username (L), 
timestamp (T) of first initiation of the browser (i.e. this
timestamp doesn't change in subsequent commands sent by this
instance of the browser), process ID (I), and browser's listening
port (P) --  MOLTIP. This "combination" may be a 1-1 function mapping
	(M,O,L,T,I,P) --> UID
or an N-to-1 function hash function with a small collision probability
(e.g. < 1%).  The implications of a collision means different
instances of browsers (and persons) may appear as the same to
the server side.  An example of a 1-1 function for this purpose
can be a concatenation of MOLTIP values casted to lower-case and
separated by hyphens '-':
	(M,O,L,T,I,P) -->  T-I-P-L-O-M
	Eg 19950305130255020-2452-4523-cheekai-sunos4.1.3-sun
The M,O,L fields are clear.  The timestamp is in yyyymmddhhmmssiii
format, with yyyy being year, mm being month, dd being date, hh
being hour, mm being minute, ss being second, iii being milisec,
and is in fixed length format so that it may be strcmp()ed to give
a meaningful relational comparison.  The I, and P fields should be
straightforward.

The client browser, on initiation, opens a listening port on any
available unused port in the system, but must use the same port
as long as this instance of the browser is alive.  It then
computes its UID, and attaches this UID as the first item on each
of its request to the HTTP-MUD server.  Eg,  "GET /index.html"
now becomes "UID  GET /index.html", where UID expands to the
MOLTIP UID value above.

On the server end, all incoming UIDs are cached and tagged with
the browser's host IP address and server's own timestamp.
This server timestamp serves as a Time-To-Live (TTL) check, so that
after a certain time, say 10 minutes, has elapsed and no fresh 
request bearing this UID is received, then the server may remove
this UID.  To an interactive system like HTTP-MUD, removing a
cached UID implies an action similar to
"Connection closed by foreign host."; in other words, the
interactive system no longer recognises the person/browser bearing
the UID as being "logged into" the interactive system.

To the server, an incoming request from any browser is serviced
as per normal.  If the attached UID is present, it is either cached
in the server if it hasn't been, or has its entry refreshed if 
the entry already exists.  An absence of UID should cause no error.

Whenever the interactive server wishes to initiate an unsolicited
document/message [*] to a browser whose UID is present in the server's
cache, the server will have all the relevant network information
to send its information to the specific instance of the browser.
The server uses a simple protocol (call this HTTP extension, or
Return-HTTP,  I don't know :) by first sending a line stating
the browser's UID and other protocol information [*], followed
by "\r\n" (CR+LF), and followed by server's intended HTML documents.



== What's The Big Idea? ==
This UID scheme basically exploits the ports on a client machine
to provide a sort of private "telephone line" to the user.
Current browsers function like telephones with only out-going
communication ability.  With the UID scheme, browsers using this
scheme will function like the usual telephones, with two-way
call initiation ability while not deviating too much from existing
HTTP servers;  servers which do not wish to implement MOLTIP UIDs
can simply test if the incoming request string begins with numeric
values (assuming the example 1-1 function above is used), and ignore
the first word if a numeric word begins the string.

A browser that does not implement MOLTIP-UID does not listen on
any port for the user and so need not worry about the R-HTTP 
protocol which the server uses to return replies to a MOLTIP-UID-
aware browser.  A browser which implements MOLTIP-UID listens on
its announced port to the server, and discards any message with
a different UID from its own UID.  This is similar to Ethernet's
protocol in which an Ethernet node is exposed to packets to every
node but would only admit packets targetted at that particular node.



== Potential Uses ==
It has almost an immediate use in interactive systems trying to
leverage on well-establishd standards like HTML and HTTP.  Interactive
browsing becomes possible when the server can asynchronously initiate
a conversation with a user.  This has a direct relevance in, for
instance, an advertisement/classifieds server whereby the availability
of new advertisements/products may be made known to the currently
connected browsers (which will be presumably servicing users interested
in related ads).  

MUD - Multi-User Domain - will be possible with MOLTIP UIDs.
New people who just stepped into person A's room can be made known
to A's browser which would otherwise not know who has entered the
room unless A continuously flushes its browser's cache and reloads
the same page over and over again, which is certainly a network-intensive
process.  

The use, as I work on this MOLTIP UID spec, seems to extend beyond
just games and interactivity.  In a remote and intensive document
search, for example, a HTTP-MOLTIP server can first return an
acknowledgement document saying the search has been initiated.
Since the server already has the browser's MOLTIP UID, it can 
close the connection to relieve the browser from being "hung"
while waiting for the server's long searching time.  The browser
may, in the mean time, surf through other documents, perhaps 
initiating searches on more servers.  When the first server
has reached a conclusion to its search (successful or otherwise),
it may package its result (eg, tag copyright/contact information,
compress long documents, etc) and initiate a server->client
reply message to the original browser via its cached MOLTIP UID.


[*] I didn't include the details on "R-HTTP" here to avoid
    making this an excessively long mail.

Chin Chee-Kai
cheekai@ncb.gov.sg
http://www.ncb.gov.sg/staff/cheekai/
--------------------------- END OF INCLUSION ----------------------------
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From: "Adam T. McClure" <mcclurea@nag.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-Id: <199503050921.CAA28724@nag.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
To: cheekai@ncb.gov.sg
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 02:21:20 -0700 (MST)
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9503050619.AA15590@ncb.gov.sg> from "Chin Chee-Kai" at Mar 5, 95 01:32:25 am
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Chin Chee-Kai
> 
> The use, as I work on this MOLTIP UID spec, seems to extend beyond
> just games and interactivity.  In a remote and intensive document
> search, for example, a HTTP-MOLTIP server can first return an
> acknowledgement document saying the search has been initiated.
> Since the server already has the browser's MOLTIP UID, it can 
> close the connection to relieve the browser from being "hung"
> while waiting for the server's long searching time.  The browser
> may, in the mean time, surf through other documents, perhaps 
> initiating searches on more servers.  When the first server
> has reached a conclusion to its search (successful or otherwise),
> it may package its result (eg, tag copyright/contact information,
> compress long documents, etc) and initiate a server->client
> reply message to the original browser via its cached MOLTIP UID.

In this case, it is worth noting that browsers would want to have
message caching so that the incoming response doesn't destroy the
document you are currently viewing.  In other words, there would
have to be a cache mechanism on the client side for responses based
on MOLTIP UID's or something so that you could tell multiple messages
from different servers apart in the queue.

Maybe a window with a Netscape-hotlist style interface would work, but
it would be separate from the hotlist in implementation unless a link
to your list was specifically requested.

Anyway, something to consider.
 
> [*] I didn't include the details on "R-HTTP" here to avoid
>     making this an excessively long mail.
> 
Actually, it would help your argument quite a bit to give more details.

-- 
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Adam T. McClure    	Integrated Teaching & Learning project
mcclurea@colorado.edu	University of Colorado-Boulder

"When philosophy has grown beyond science, it is
       time to create a new science." --

  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is 
       indistinguishable from magic." 
           -- Arthur C. Clarke
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
"
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Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 17:06:05 +0530 (IST)
From: Rupesh Kapoor <rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in>
Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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Hi,

Apologies if this one is too obvious :)

A beginner in me would like to know as to what all changes would be 
required to get this protocol running. Server? Client? Client, obviously! 
But i feel it's possible without any server change (maybe for most 
cases). The client would ask for an update every n seconds, and maybe 
check if the new data has a timestamp newer than the previous one.

Additionally, i would like some action to take place every time the user 
presses <cr> in a form field, or selects a different "radio" option.

Time has come to make http interactive! Say what?

                             _\\|//_ 
                             ( O-O )
--------------------------o00--(_)--00o------------------------------
Rupesh Kapoor		   	   email:  rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in
ERNET Lab        		   smail:  B-25 Chandra Nagar
Dept. of Computer Science & Engg. 	   Ghaziabad, U.P.
Indian Institute of Technology	   	   201011
New Delhi 110016		   phone:  6867431 (O)
INDIA                                      8769190 (R)

MOTD:  I haven't lost my mind, it's backed up on some tape somewhere.
--------------------------o00--(_)--00o------------------------------
                            _( O-O )_
                              //|\\

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Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 18:10:16 +0200 (EET)
From: Jyri Kaljundi <yhuubert@cherry.viabalt.ee>
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Subject: Re: Host Hiding in URL
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On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Mike Godsey wrote:

> I need to know how to setup web pages for customers, all hosted on the
> same server.  I want each customer's URL to be free from the host-system'=
s
> server name.  For example, the server is www.medio.net.  I DON't want
> customer's URL's to be:  http://www.medio.net/CustomerA

It is possible to assign a different server address to each customer using=
=20
CERN or NCSA http server (having actually only one machine and one=20
ethernet port).

Check out http://www.thesphere.com/~dlp/TwoServers/

> For what it's worth, I'm using the Netscape Commerce Server.

I think you as a customer should ask Netscape when will they support this=
=20
feature in their server. Many customers want this possibility, and I=20
personally won't buy Netsite server before I can run many servers on one=20
machine with it.

Cheers,

Juri
The Baltics Online WWW server <A HREF=3D"http://www.viabalt.ee/">
 ____________________________________________________________________
<._______________ J=FCri Kaljundi=09_______ yhuubert@viabalt.ee _______.<
 >.____ Stallion Ltd __ P.O. Box 68, Tallinn EE0090, ESTONIA _______.>
<._______________ tel: +3722 446533 ___ fax:+3722 446998 __________.<
 >___________________________________________________________________>

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From: Rob McCool <robm@netscape.com>
Message-Id: <199503051636.IAA27681@neon.netscape.com>
To: mgodsey@medio.com
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/*
 * "Host Hiding in URL" by Mike Godsey <mgodsey@medio.com>
 *    written Fri, 3 Mar 1995 17:23:20 +0500
 * 
 * I need to know how to setup web pages for customers, all hosted on
 * the same server.  I want each customer's URL to be free from the
 * host-system's server name.  For example, the server is
 * www.medio.net.  I DON't want customer's URL's to be:
 * http://www.medio.net/CustomerA NOR do I want to put them on a
 * seperate port, and run a second server on that port.  Is there
 * another way to do this that I'm missing.
 *
 * For what it's worth, I'm using the Netscape Commerce Server.
 *
 */

This is not possible in the 1.0 release of the Netsite servers (it
missed being there by about a half a day). It is possible in the
upcoming 1.1 releases of the servers.

--Rob
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Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
To: rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 11:42:08 -0500 (EST)
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9503051709.A1839-0100000@kriti> from "Rupesh Kapoor" at Mar 5, 95 07:15:08 am
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> 
> Time has come to make http interactive! Say what?
> 
This seems to come up from time to time.  Also seems to die
fairly quickly.  I'm not sure what is being proposed in the
current thread.

1.  Interactive html?  Interacting with what? User?  Browser?
	Server?
2.  Maybe interactive browsers?  How so?  Modifying content of
	html stuff in the browser?
3.  "make http interactive"?  Hmm...  I'm busy reading a document
	when a (sic) server decides to interact with my browser.

Under current protocols browser developers are free to make their
products as interactive as they wish.  Netscape will interact with
the user while carrying on its communication activities in the 
background.  Interactions can certainly be extended but they will 
also have to be explained and understood.  Having a document that
I'm reading unexplicably change as I'm reading would be most
bothersome.  Raising a flag to say "I'm obsolete" might not be a
bother.  The problem's not http or html, it's the human interaction.

bob
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Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
To: cheekai@ncb.gov.sg
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 12:12:04 -0500 (EST)
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9503050619.AA15590@ncb.gov.sg> from "Chin Chee-Kai" at Mar 5, 95 01:31:01 am
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> I'm including the attachment below for any discussion or comments.  
> It does not have complete details but should be sufficient to give an
> outline of the approach.  Let me know your comments, suggestions,
> criticisms, etc either through emailing to me (cheekai@ncb.gov.sg)
> or discuss it over this list.  Flames will be happily absorbed to cook
> my eggs :)
> 
> Chin Chee-Kai
> cheekai@ncb.gov.sg
> http://www.ncb.gov.sg/staff/cheekai/
> -------------------------- BEGIN OF INCLUSION ---------------------------
> == The Problem ==
> While braving the odds and plunging into writing a WWW-based
> MUD-style interactive pager, I ran up the same difficulty due
> to the "monodirectional" nature of HTTP protocol.

No,
the http protocol is not monodirectional.  It's use with browsers
like the Mosaic derivatives may exhibit a monodirectional behavior but
that is not the protocol.  We have http clients running in Excel and
Visual Basic that are certainly not monodirectional.  Browsers are only
one model for http clients, MUD clients could be another.

bob

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From: James Gwertzman <gwertzma@das.harvard.edu>
Message-Id: <199503051738.MAA18303@steward.harvard.edu>
To: rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9503051709.A1839-0100000@kriti> (message from Rupesh Kapoor on Sun, 5 Mar 1995 07:11:16 +0500)
Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
Content-Length: 1048

I'm worried that in the discussions on interactive HTTP people haven't
been sufficiently concerned with bandwidth or server load. I'm
currently researching wide-area WWW caching schemes (more than just
campus proxies or client caches) so I'm very attuned to issues that
might affect this. Querying the server every n seconds is not only
very inefficient, but even a mildly popular site would quickly become
overloaded. Likewise, in the rush to add dynamic pages to the WWW I
think we should not forget that caching information is one of the ways
we're going to make sure that WWW growth does not overtake Internat
capacity. Anytime you can handle interactivity by transferring a
script to the client and having the script run on the browser is going
to be a much better solution than always running the script on the
server, and forcing the client to act as nothing more than a fancy
dumb terminal. That way the script could be cached around the net, and
the original server's load will not depend on how interactive the
particular application is.
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From: Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com>
To: Chin Chee-Kai <cheekai@ncb.gov.sg>
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
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> The recent discussion of "two-way communication over WWW" ...

This conversation reminds me of Sun's now gone NEWS package.  One might find
that to be a source of ideas of how to do it and how not to do it. 

		--karl--


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On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Mike Godsey wrote:
     
> I need to know how to setup web pages for customers, all hosted on the
> same server.  I want each customer's URL to be free from the host-system'= 
s
> server name.  For example, the server is www.medio.net.  I DON't want 
> customer's URL's to be:  http://www.medio.net/CustomerA

Can you modify your DNS records? By adding CNAME aliases you could 
customize the server name for each client. Just a thought...
     
     
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Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 20:52:32 +0200 (EET)
From: Jyri Kaljundi <yhuubert@cherry.viabalt.ee>
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Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
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Netscape 1.1 has some way for dynamic documents.

Check out http://home.netscape.com/home/demo/1.1b1/pushpull.html

Juri Kaljundi
The Baltics Online <A HREF=3D"http://www.viabalt.ee">

 ____________________________________________________________________
<._______________ J=FCri Kaljundi=09_______ yhuubert@viabalt.ee _______.<
 >.____ Stallion Ltd __ P.O. Box 68, Tallinn EE0090, ESTONIA _______.>
<._______________ tel: +3722 446533 ___ fax:+3722 446998 __________.<
 >___________________________________________________________________>

eturn-Path: mcclurea@nag.cs.colorado.edu 
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From: "Adam T. McClure" <mcclurea@nag.cs.colorado.edu>
Message-Id: <199503052130.OAA09325@nag.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: two-way communication in html
To: gwertzma@das.harvard.edu
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 14:30:30 -0700 (MST)
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <199503051738.MAA18303@steward.harvard.edu> from "James Gwertzman" at Mar 5, 95 12:51:35 pm
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James Gwertzman
> 
> I'm worried that in the discussions on interactive HTTP people haven't
> been sufficiently concerned with bandwidth or server load. I'm
> currently researching wide-area WWW caching schemes (more than just
> campus proxies or client caches) so I'm very attuned to issues that
> might affect this. Querying the server every n seconds is not only
> very inefficient, but even a mildly popular site would quickly become
> overloaded. 

Many of these concerns have already been aired on this list and it
might behoove some new members to go digging through the list archives
a bit to see what has already been explored.  However, the implementation
proposed is somewhat new and is fairly simple to implement.  I think
the critical point of Chin's suggestion is that it does not involve
polling the server every 'n' seconds for anything but rather initiates
a short-duration UID that is used for interaction between a client and
server using http.  If we look at it from that perspective, many initial
concerns that have been raised should be amply satisfied.

I would still welcome news of contributions in the area of WAN caching
as Mr. Gwertzman has already recognized how important such schemes will
be in the development of increasing WAN content.

-- 
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Adam T. McClure    	Integrated Teaching & Learning project
mcclurea@colorado.edu	University of Colorado-Boulder

"When philosophy has grown beyond science, it is
       time to create a new science." --

  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is 
       indistinguishable from magic." 
           -- Arthur C. Clarke
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
"
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Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 18:53:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Behlendorf <brian@wired.com>
To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch
Subject: Netscape 1.1 and Accept: headers
Message-Id: <Pine.BSD.3.91.950305184809.4975Q-100000@get.wired.com>
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I just downloaded my copy of Netscape 1.1 beta 1, very happy to see them
exploring with tables and other 3.0 features in a mostly standard way. 
However, I was very dismayed to see that the Accept: headers did *not*
include something indicating it was HTML 3.0-ready, like text/x-html3 or
text/html; version=3.0.  

Please

Please

<font size=7>PLEASE</font>

...if you are writing an HTML 3.0 browser, indicate that in your Accept: 
headers, so those of us with content-type-negotiating servers can dish 
out HTML 3.0 documents to HTML 3.0 clients and HTML 2.0 docs to HTML 2.0 
clients.  I can *not* underscore how important this is, especially when 
it's soooo easy to do.  Thank you.

	Brian

--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
brian@hotwired.com  brian@hyperreal.com  http://www.hotwired.com/Staff/brian/

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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:31:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: Frans Stekelenburg <stekelen@knmi.nl>
To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: NCSA httpd 1.3p
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[It's time for a monolog...]

On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Frans Stekelenburg wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Does anybody has httpd compiled for DEC Ultrix?
> 
> I'm trying to, but it gets stuck on 2 parsing errors :
> 
> make
> gcc  -c -g -DULTRIX http_config.c

You nitwit! can't you see yo should use cc instead of gcc?? :-)

> /usr/local/include/arpa/inet.h:67: parse error
> *** Error code 1

Everybody... no need to help me out, anymore. I've had a bright 
mondaymorningmoment so it solved.  

> 
> With regards,
>                                                     
>  frans stekelenburg                  <mailto:stekelen@knmi.nl>          
>  Helpdesk KNMI        tel.: +31-30-206732  fax : +31-30-210407     +

You stupid ... ;-)

With regards,
                                                    
 frans stekelenburg                  <mailto:stekelen@knmi.nl>          
 Helpdesk KNMI        tel.: +31-30-206732  fax : +31-30-210407     +
______________________________________________________________   (|||)  
                                                                ======= 
  Koninklijk Nederlands Meteorlogisch Instituut                 K N M I 
  Postbus 210, 3730 AE De Bilt - Nederland  *  info@knmi.nl     =======  
                                                         
  -= We can't MAKE weather. If we can it would be better =-

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From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com>
To: "'Phillip M. Hallam-Baker'" <hallam@dxal18.cern.ch>,
        'www-security' <www-security@ns2.rutgers.edu>,
        www-talk <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
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One element of modern application programs that has so far pretty much been 
neglected in Web client development is the integrated scripting language.  I 
see at least 3 uses for a Web scripting language:

1) Building extensions for current browsers;

2) A secure substitute for other CGI scripting languages; and

3) Adding intelligent agent capabilities to the Web.

One possible base for this work would be Safe-Tcl, Nathaniel Borenstein's 
and Marshall Rose's email scripting extension for John Ousterhout's Tcl/Tk. 
 Safe-Tcl uses a two-level interpreter, where the outer interpreter supports 
a carefully limited set of high-level capabilities.  Safe-Tcl is designed 
such that:

a) Modifications to the user's system have to be approved by the user in a 
reasonably high-level fashion;

b) Email generated has to be approved by the user in, again, a reasonably 
high-level fashion; and

c) "Excessive" use of system resources also has to be user-approved.

An additional basic guideline for Web scripting would then be:

d) Modifications to the Web server's system (POST or PUT) would have to be 
approved by the user in a reasonably high-level fashion.

I think that (a)-(d) would suffice as constraints for (1) above (browser 
extensions).


A secure substitute for CGI scripting languages ((2) above) for gateway 
purposes might be handled via the current CERN server's ability to run CGI 
scripts under a separate user ID that has no directory/file write 
permissions anywhere except perhaps to a directory for temporary files.  If 
the gateways can be constructed as one-pass programs, then temporary files 
would not be needed by CGI scripts under OSes that support pipelining.


Intelligent Web agents would:

i) Be able to walk the Web on their own (travel from machine to machine);

ii) Via a specific URL at each host, like 
"http://your.machine.com/Agent-Entry";

iii) Interacting with a specified user ID (like 
"webmaster@your.machine.com") who would have the approval authority from 
constraints (a)-(d) above.

If the URL "http://your.machine.com/Agent-Entry" did not exist, no agent 
could enter that Web.  If agents are permitted entry, capability (iii) along 
with constraints (a)-(d) should enable each site to formulate an appropriate 
policy for agent execution.  "Spiders" could really walk the Web...


I suggest the name "Spider" for this Safe-Tcl extension.
======================================================================
Mark Fisher                            Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com                   Indianapolis, IN

"Just as you should not underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon
traveling 65 mph filled with 8mm tapes, you should not overestimate
the bandwidth of FTP by mail."
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Subject: Multi-language Web pages
Content-Length: 408

     I'm in the process of developing our company's Web server and would 
     like to offer some of the pages in multiple languages (English, 
     French, Spanish and German). Does anyone know of some good reference 
     material for translating some of the more technically orientated terms 
     (ie: networking, Internet, server, RAM, computer, etc...).
     
     Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
eturn-Path: Anselm.Baird_Smith@inria.fr 
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From: "Anselm.BairdSmith" <Anselm.Baird_Smith@inria.fr>
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Subject: Re: two-ways html
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I am currently experiencing two ways html through the use of scripts:
the general guideline is to try to make it *whithout* any changes in
the current available servers and browsers.

The idea - which seems quiet common now - is to have the server send
scripts to the browser, encoded as a special MIME type (in my case,
for example application/scheme). By using Mosaic 2.5 CCI capabilities,
this MIME type gets forwarded to a scheme interpreter that evaluates
the script. For those of you who understand lisp, here is an example
of what I call a "script-document":

----- foo.scm
;; Have fun:
;; This is to be launched in the "demo" context were we now that the mosaic
;; pilot is bound to *pilot* :-(

(define *urls* 
  '("http://www.inria.fr"
    "http://www.inria.fr/koala"
    "http://www.inria.fr/koala/abaird.html"
    "http://www.inria.fr/koala/abaird/oscheme/oscheme.html"))

(for-each (lambda (url) 
            (format (current-error-port) "Going to %0\n" url)
            [*pilot* goto: url] 
            (sleep 5))
          *urls*)
-----

When this scripts gets executed in the "helper" scheme interpreter, it
sends back requests to the Mosaic browsers (using the GOTO CCI
protocol request), and make it visit the given set of HTML pages
automagically.

This presents a number of advantages - as was mention by someone this
morning on the list - one of it being that it requires no changes in
currently available WWW components (well, as long as something like
Mosaic 2.5 CCI is agreed upon).

However, they are also disadvantages, the biggest one being
security. I'm currently working on a "secure" version of scheme, which
would allow to run "script-document" in a somehow "secure"
environment: the accessible primitive set is reduced depending on a
security level, and various parameters, such as file I/O and CPU
consumption can be limited.

I hope this helps the discussion, my point here is just to show that
scripting may really improve WWW interactivity, and it is not that far
now (given all the various efforts going in that direction).

Thanks for your attention,

Anselm.

-----
Anselm BAIRD-SMITH (Anselm.BairdSmith@inria.fr), Koala Project, BULL/INRIA.
WWW: "http://www.inria.fr/koala/abaird.html"

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From: rst@ai.mit.edu (Robert S. Thau)
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To: brian@wired.com
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD.3.91.950305184809.4975Q-100000@get.wired.com> (message from Brian Behlendorf on Sun, 5 Mar 1995 22:10:11 +0500)
Subject: Re: Netscape 1.1 and Accept: headers
Content-Length: 903

   Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 22:10:11 +0500
   Reply-To: brian@wired.com

   I just downloaded my copy of Netscape 1.1 beta 1, very happy to see them
   exploring with tables and other 3.0 features in a mostly standard way. 
   However, I was very dismayed to see that the Accept: headers did *not*
   include something indicating it was HTML 3.0-ready, like text/x-html3 or
   text/html; version=3.0.  

Agreed, with a caution --- while Netscape 1.1 does support tables, it
does not yet support many features of the current 3.0 draft DTD
(<fig>, <note>, and <math> just to name a few that jump out at me from
viewing the W3O's HTML3 walkthrough using Netscape 1.1).  So, if we
call what Netscape accepts right now "HTML3" (however that's spelled),
it could bite us *again* down the line.

Is there any chance for an HTML/2.1 which includes the 2.0 features,
the table extensions, and not much else?

rst


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From: Steinar Bang <steinarb@falch.no>
To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Netscape 1.1 and parsing SGML constructs
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>>>>> rst@ai.mit.edu (Robert S. Thau) writes:

> Agreed, with a caution --- while Netscape 1.1 does support tables,
> it does not yet support many features of the current 3.0 draft DTD
> (<fig>, <note>, and <math> just to name a few that jump out at me
> from viewing the W3O's HTML3 walkthrough using Netscape 1.1).

Sigh! And it still croaks on SGML processing instructions (PIs). 

I discovered this by walking back, from Håkon Lie's HTML3 walkthrough,
to our own HTML features test pages...:-)

<rant>
>From what I have gathered we will *never* see a NCOM parser built on
scalable principles (SGML DTDs + stylesheets). They will continue to
stuff in their own tags were they see fit. 

I wouldn't have a problem with this, if they had provided an SGML DTD
and required a DOCTYPE declaration for documents. But, no, they will
continue to bed over backwards to try to make sense out of all kinds
of bogus HTML created by bogus tools that really should have hit the
bit bucket a long, long, long, long time ago!
</rant>

It's a pity, really. It's such a beautiful program.

- Steinar

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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:31:39 +0500
From: connolly@w3.org (Dan Connolly)
Message-Id: <9503061531.AA01996@www18.w3.org>
To: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu
Cc: html-wg@oclc.org, www-talk@www10.w3.org, www-html@www10.w3.org
Cc: markg@hal.com
Subject: Connolly has moved from hal.com to w3.org
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Jared Rhine writes:
 > My local spider informed me tonight that:
 > 
 >   http://www.hal.com/~connolly/drafts/formalism.html
 >   http://www.hal.com/~connolly/index.html
 > 
 > have broken.  A scan of HaL showed you are no longer listed as having an
 > employee page.  Mail to hal.com appears to expand to a retired script,
 > listing this as your new address.  I checked www.w3.org for a '/~connolly'
 > URL, but had no such luck.  Are URLs analogous to the above available?

Sorry about this... I tried to leave a forwarding pointer, but
I suppose the sysadmin deleted it with all my other stuff.

My new Welcome Page is at:

	http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/People/Connolly/

Not all the stuff I had at HaL is available there, as I need to
update some links and generally Q/A it before releasing it to the
world.

In the mean time, Roy Fielding maintains an excellent archive of
the HTML materials:

	"IETF - HyperText Markup Language (HTML) Working Group"
	ftp://www.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/html/index.html
or
	http://www.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/html/index.html

Also, keep an eye on the traditional HTML page:

	http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/MarkUp.html

I hope to update that page this week sometime.


Daniel W. Connolly        "We believe in the interconnectedness of all things"
Research Technical Staff, MIT/W3C
<connolly@w3.org>             http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/People/Connolly

p.s. Mark: could you see about setting up an HTTP redirect from
http://www.hal.com/~connolly/
to
http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/People/Connolly/
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Subject:  Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
In-Reply-To: <2F5B1459@MSMAIL.INDY.TCE.COM>
From: mwm@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 95 07:13:04 PST
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica
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> One element of modern application programs that has so far pretty much been
> neglected in Web client development is the integrated scripting language.  I
> see at least 3 uses for a Web scripting language:

Not all that neglected. See
http://www.phone.net/~mwm/Mosaic-Rexx-Interface/manual.html for the
manual to one such interface.

> 1) Building extensions for current browsers;

Yup; this is the thing that's been most exploited. The hotlist and
print interfaces have been replaced by invocation of scripts. I have
scripts to interact with other HTML display mechanisms, add entries to
pages, interact with editors, etc. Other people have scripts to post
news: followups, and there's probably things happening that nobody
involved thought of.

> 2) A secure substitute for other CGI scripting languages; and

We haven't done much of that; the faciities that would allow servers
to invoke scripts weren't put in place.

> 3) Adding intelligent agent capabilities to the Web.

We've talked a bit about this. For a lot of the things suggested, the
scripts don't belong in a the browser, as you don't really need - or
even want - a GUI active while this is going on. Libraries to provide
high-level WWW facilities to other languages provide the same
functionality, without having to start a fairly large application to
get to them.

> Intelligent Web agents would:
> 
> i) Be able to walk the Web on their own (travel from machine to machine);

Robots or spiders, which have already been written using library
facilities as discussed above.

> If the URL "http://your.machine.com/Agent-Entry" did not exist, no agent
> could enter that Web.  If agents are permitted entry, capability (iii) along
> with constraints (a)-(d) should enable each site to formulate an appropriate
> policy for agent execution.  "Spiders" could really walk the Web...

Why not use the existing protocols for robots?

> I suggest the name "Spider" for this Safe-Tcl extension.

That name is already in use as an alias for web-wondering robots.

	<mike


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From: martin@terena.nl
Message-Id: <199503061623.AA20799@erasmus.terena.nl>
Subject: vacation messages...
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:23:48 +0100 (MET)
Organisation: TERENA (formerly RARE)
Comment: TERENA - Trans-European Research and Education Networking Association
Address: Singel 466-468,
         NL-1017 AW Amsterdam
Phone: +31 20 639 1131 (voice) +31 20 639 3289 (fax)
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Hi All,

I apologise in advance for something which is not strictly relevant.

I see that mine was not the only vacation message which recently went to
this list - sorry...

However, for all those people who wrote to point out the deficencies in
my vacation program, (and some who were a little more 'direct'), I should 
point out that the message it responded to did _not_ have either a Sender 
or Precedence field nor even did the string '-request' appear in the 
headers anywhere. I dont know how it managed to slip through the
listprocessor at w3.org.

...so stop sending me messages please.

John
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From: Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com>
To: Fisher Mark <FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com>
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
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> One element of modern application programs that has so far pretty much been 
> neglected in Web client development is the integrated scripting language.

(We've been doing some things like this in network management rather than WWW,
and we're using Scheme and other compact languages rather than TCL.)

I think it's important to make a very clear distinction between
scripts which are to run in (or alongside) the user's browser or in
the user's computer from those scripts which are to run in servers.
The security and resource consumption concerns are different.

What we had (have) trouble with is this: Management of the scripts
that we've launched to servers.  The trouble is that they can migrate
away or that we (or our machines) somehow forget about their
existance.  Sometimes we want to kill-off a worm that did unexpected
bad things.  Overall, it seems a bad idea to have the ability to
launch a potentially infinite-lived worm out onto the net. (Now, where
*did* I put my copy of Shockwave Rider?)

		--karl--
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Subject: Re: Multi-language Web pages
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There are good multilingual theasauri available from Unesco and IDRC for
translation between these languages. If you let me know your specific
requirement I will be happy to send you the contact addresses.

Regards,
Anil Srivastava

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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:29:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Behlendorf <brian@wired.com>
To: "Robert S. Thau" <rst@ai.mit.edu>
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Re: Netscape 1.1 and Accept: headers
In-Reply-To: <9503061357.AA27178@volterra>
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On Mon, 6 Mar 1995, Robert S. Thau wrote:
>    I just downloaded my copy of Netscape 1.1 beta 1, very happy to see them
>    exploring with tables and other 3.0 features in a mostly standard way. 
>    However, I was very dismayed to see that the Accept: headers did *not*
>    include something indicating it was HTML 3.0-ready, like text/x-html3 or
>    text/html; version=3.0.  
> 
> Agreed, with a caution --- while Netscape 1.1 does support tables, it
> does not yet support many features of the current 3.0 draft DTD
> (<fig>, <note>, and <math> just to name a few that jump out at me from
> viewing the W3O's HTML3 walkthrough using Netscape 1.1).  So, if we
> call what Netscape accepts right now "HTML3" (however that's spelled),
> it could bite us *again* down the line.

Comparing the consequences between a almost-HTML-3.0 browser viewing 
HTML 3.0 pages and a not-more-than-HTML-2.0 browser viewing HTML 3.0 pages, 
I think the former case is much preferable, particularly if it helps 
encourage the almost-HTML-3.0 browser become fully-HTML-3.0.  

	Brian-dash-dot-dot-dash-Behlendorf

--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
brian@hotwired.com  brian@hyperreal.com  http://www.hotwired.com/Staff/brian/

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To: FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
From: Larry Masinter <masinter@parc.xerox.com>
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One simple and powerful application for a scripting language interface
in the web is to have the notion of `expires' be an expression that is
evaluated in some safe language. That is: at what point should this
client contact that server in order to update the information
contained therein?

The `expires' expression should be evaluatable in terms of time,
location of client, or a variety of `shared variables', which might
require client-side participation in a state variable maintenance
system, but would generalize the web protocols in an interesting and
safe way.

(The work on Mobisaic at last year's Web conference used this idea,
and I found it attractive.)
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From: rst@ai.mit.edu (Robert S. Thau)
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSD.3.91.950306121952.4975d-100000@get.wired.com> (message from Brian Behlendorf on Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:29:42 -0800 (PST))
Subject: Re: Netscape 1.1 and Accept: headers
Content-Length: 2474

   Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:29:42 -0800 (PST)
   From: Brian Behlendorf <brian@wired.com>

   Comparing the consequences between a almost-HTML-3.0 browser viewing 
   HTML 3.0 pages and a not-more-than-HTML-2.0 browser viewing HTML 3.0 pages, 
   I think the former case is much preferable, particularly if it helps 
   encourage the almost-HTML-3.0 browser become fully-HTML-3.0.  

	   Brian-dash-dot-dot-dash-Behlendorf

That's a matter of taste, but when I point Netscape 1.1 at the W3O's
HTML3 tour (http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Arena/tour/start) I do see
real problems.

One fairly serious bug that shows up immediately is that the
inline images in <fig>s don't show up, leaving the caption text
floating well out of context:

  As you can see, HTML 3.0 supports text flow around floating figures.
  Other major additions include fill-out forms, tables and mathematical
  equations, and features for greater control of layout. A pause after
  a hard spell of fishing    ) Time-Life 1987

This problem is, in a sense, worse than the difficulties with tables
--- when a table-impaired browser tries to deal with a table-laden
page, you can at least see that there's stuff there which is being
handled improperly.  If a page uses <fig> and the browser doesn't know
about it, it may not be immediately obvious what's going wrong.

(One way around this would be to just not use <fig> until you can have
some confidence that a browser that claims to accept HTML/3.0 really
means it --- but that could delay the adoption of <fig> in cases where
it might actually be useful).

Another, lesser problem is that authors will expect the graphics
associated with a <note role="blah"> ... </note> to provide context
for the enclosed text.  So, when pages using those tags show up in a
browser that doesn't understand them, that text is likely to be a
little hard to read.

Also, <math> shows up as a garbled version of the source, which is
sometimes decipherable and sometimes not (when an unrecognized <over>
tag has vanished, the structural information about the formula that it
conveys is irretrievably gone along with it).

If the only way to fix the table problems is to break all these other
things, that still might be the right thing to do, but collectively, I
do think they add up to a headache which we should avoid if there's an
easy way to avoid it.  Putting tables into HTML/2.1 or 2.2 and doing
type arbitration based on those version numbers would avoid it.

rst

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From: connolly@w3.org (Dan Connolly)
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To: mau@beatles.cselt.stet.it
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Subject: two-way communication in html
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Maurizio Codogno writes:
 > As everybody of us know, html is a "monodirectional" protocol -- in the sense
 > that the server cannot initiate a response by itself, but it has to wait
 > for a http request from the client.
 > 
 > (no, this is all wrong -- what I want to say is that with a HTML browser
 > you have to click to reload a page, otherwise it doesn't happen anything).
 > 
 > I (pronunciation: "my boss") would like to investigate how the thing could
 > be changed, in order to have a real "live" environment. Supposing for the
 > moment to stick with unix systems and reasonable root powers :-), the first 
 > ideas which came to me were the following:

Wedging this into HTTP seems like a bad idea. HTTP is an
information retrieval protocol. For conferencing, look at
protocols like IRC[1] or the MUD stuff. Maybe even mbone channels.

I think within 6 months to two years, you'll see URLs
like:

	irc://undernet.org/linpeople

Just like you see telnet:... URLs today.

Dan

[1] http://mistral.enst.fr:80/~pioch/IRC/IRCprimer/
[2] hmmm... can't find a reference to MUD usage on the web...
	anybody want to chime in?

Daniel W. Connolly        "We believe in the interconnectedness of all things"
Research Technical Staff, MIT/W3C
<connolly@w3.org>             http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/People/Connolly
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 |>[1] http://mistral.enst.fr:80/~pioch/IRC/IRCprimer/
 |>[2] hmmm... can't find a reference to MUD usage on the web...
 |>	anybody want to chime in?


Try http://sensemedia.net/sprawl

js




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connolly@w3.org writes:
> Maurizio Codogno writes:
 > ... a real "live" environment ...

> Wedging this into HTTP seems like a bad idea. HTTP is an
> information retrieval protocol. For conferencing, look at
> protocols like IRC[1] or the MUD stuff. Maybe even mbone channels.

Live connections can be made over HTTP, as the Push part of
the PushPull protocol demonstrates:
<URL:http://home.netscape.com/home/demo/1.1b1/pushpull.html>.

It is a fairly trivial matter to make a Web page where people
can go and link to continuous streams of data over HTTP.

-pt


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From: cheekai@ncb.gov.sg (Chin Chee-Kai)
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I'd like to clarify (or try to do it) some of the comments given
earlier.

I'd consider HTTP a "monodirectional" in the sense that only the
browser (client) may initiate a communication to the server;  the
server cannot initiate a transmission to a specific browser until
that browser opens a TCP connection to the server.  HTTP specs
states clearly that it is a request-response protocol;  a protocol
to transmit a request sent by the browser and to return a response 
generated by the server, within one TCP session (ie. prior to the
connected socket being closed by either party).  While TCP is
a full duplex channel, the fact that only the server and not the
browser provides a listening port means that no one can ever 
initiate a connection to a browser.  So without making the browser
install a listening port, it's hard to expect a browser to receive
unsolicited information.

On the "interactivity" issue, it is not HTML that needs to be 
interactive, but more on the system that comprises the HTTP server,
the browser and the network.  Interactivity, as I see it from the
perspective of my problem on hand, allows a person to initiate a
talk to another person via the server.  Since a person runs a client
(browser) to talk to a server which will in turn initiate a 
channel to another person's client browser, it is inherent in this
set up that mechanisms are needed to identify any specific instance
of browser, and for the browser to have the ability to "receive"
incoming calls via the provision of a browser's listening port.

On the comment about "I'm busy reading a document when a server
decides to interact with my browser",  I prefer to look at the
issues separately.  That a browser equipped with a listening socket
and so may be sent with unsolicited data does not imply that the
browser cannot decide how best it may present the data to the user.
It may prompt the user, or allow the user to turn off the line,
just like you may pull your phone off the wall to stop annoying
calls.  But the presence of an underlying mechanism that allows
incoming calls to the browser is important to interactive applications.

On the CCI issue, the web page on CCI seems to be uncertain about
how a browser should select its port for applications to communicate with
it.  The service offered by the browser in this case is also slightly
different.  The applications manipulate the browser and makes use 
of its HTML rendering capability and HTTP retrieval capability to
perform additional services.  This is unlike allowing a remote
server from sending in unsolicited information to the browser
(A user would not want his/her browser to be manipulated by an
external server without control).  Also, if a browser or CCI-application
uses a fixed port, no other browser may run with CCI capability.
Scripts and CCI-based services address a different requirement,
which is to provide "value-added" or intelligent processing and
making use of browser's display, URL and HTTP-aware capabilities
to achieve those services.  It still does not allow a server to
inform a particular browser its intended messages.

On Netscape's PullPush mechanism, the server basically holds on to
the TCP channel which a connecting browser has established in
expectation of more data to be sent to the browser.  The channel
is held open as long as the server thinks there is more data that
it may soon send, regardless of whether there is anything to be
sent through the channel at the moment.  Once again, it is not
"interactive" in that the server may not initiate a communication
to the browser once it allows that channel to be closed.  It is
an attempt, I'd consider, to do-away with the "interactivity" 
issue by exploiting TCP's duplex channel.

The ability for a browser to be interactive does not also imply
that the browser should be conference-capable.  Using the example I 
gave in the previous mail, a long server search may first acknowledge
the browser's request with a short document, and subsequently,
when the search is concluded, initiation transfer of the results
to the browser.  This is not conferencing, but interactivity.

It is a phenonmenon for WWW to have come this far.  Interactive
browsers need not always be involved in interactive transactions;
it may disable its incoming port to behave like the current
browsers.  But if browsers can listen, it will mean that information
can seek users instead of making users seek information.  

As usual, this is purely discussion on the points made and no personal
feelings should be attached.  Please share if you have a different
opinion so others, myself included, may also benefit from learning.
Afterall, that's why we're all here  :)

I've made MOLTIP-UID and R-HTTP specifications available at

	http://www.ncb.gov.sg/staff/cheekai/html/moltip-techspec.html



Chin Chee-Kai
http://www.ncb.gov.sg/staff/cheekai/
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From: Rupesh Kapoor <rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in>
Subject: Distinguishing between submit buttons
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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Hi,
	Would someone know on how to distinguish between two submit buttons 
in the same form. In my application, one of them is for "Browse", while 
the other one is for "Submit". the CGI script has to take different 
actions for the two. Can't put browse in a separate form as both buttons 
need some common fields.

Thanxall
Rupesh

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From: Rupesh Kapoor <rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in>
Subject: Site specific indexing...
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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Hi all,

	Is anyone aware of a site specific indexing application? ... An 
application that will update an index of html docs every nite, but only 
at my site. It should aso have a searchable frontend.

	We're willing to pay a reasonable amount for the stuff.

-- Rupesh

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Subject: Re: Distinguishing between submit buttons
To: rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:39:50 -0500 (EST)
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9503071758.A2166-0100000@niyati> from "Rupesh Kapoor" at Mar 7, 95 07:47:41 am
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> 
> Hi,
> 	Would someone know on how to distinguish between two submit buttons 
> in the same form. In my application, one of them is for "Browse", while 
> the other one is for "Submit". the CGI script has to take different 
> actions for the two. Can't put browse in a separate form as both buttons 
> need some common fields.
> 
> Thanxall
> Rupesh

A good example of how to do this can be seen at:
http://bigmouth.pathfinder.com/time/daily/time/1995/latest.html

i.e., use multiple <form> </form> tags.
bob
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Subject: Re: Site specific indexing...
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> 	Is anyone aware of a site specific indexing application? ... An 
> application that will update an index of html docs every nite, but only 
> at my site. It should aso have a searchable frontend.
> 
> 	We're willing to pay a reasonable amount for the stuff.


Don't pay anything -- take a look at glimpse.  It's availabe at
ftp://ftp.cs.arizona.edu/glimpse.  If you want to take a look at it at
work, try http://infonet.welch.jhu.edu/system_search.html  or take a
look at Harvest (sorry, I have no idea what the URL is).


David


-- 
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Subject: Re: Distinguishing between submit buttons 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Mar 1995 07:35:24 +0500."
             <Pine.3.89.9503071758.A2166-0100000@niyati> 
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 08:55:37 -0500
From: "W. Scott Meeks" <meeks@osf.org>
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>From www-talk@www10.w3.org Tue Mar  7 08:37:01 1995
>From: Rupesh Kapoor <rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in>
>
>Hi,
>	Would someone know on how to distinguish between two submit buttons 
>in the same form. In my application, one of them is for "Browse", while 
>the other one is for "Submit". the CGI script has to take different 
>actions for the two. Can't put browse in a separate form as both buttons 
>need some common fields.

I would set up "Browse" and "Submit" as two radio items and give the submit
button a more generic label like "Do It" or "Ok".

W. Scott Meeks           
OSF Research Institute   
meeks@osf.org            
(617) 621-7229           



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From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle)
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Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
To: FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:11:04 -0600 (CST)
Cc: hallam@dxal18.cern.ch, www-security@ns2.rutgers.edu, www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <2F5B1459@MSMAIL.INDY.TCE.COM> from "Fisher Mark" at Mar 6, 95 05:56:00 am
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> From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com>
> Subject: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 95 05:56:00 PST
> 
> One element of modern application programs that has so far pretty much been 
> neglected in Web client development is the integrated scripting language.  I 
> see at least 3 uses for a Web scripting language:
> 
> 1) Building extensions for current browsers;
> 
> 2) A secure substitute for other CGI scripting languages; and
> 
> 3) Adding intelligent agent capabilities to the Web.
> 
> One possible base for this work would be Safe-Tcl, Nathaniel Borenstein's 
> and Marshall Rose's email scripting extension for John Ousterhout's Tcl/Tk. 
...

Another base worth looking at, if only for comparative purposes, would
be General Magic's Telescript.  I haven't been able to find any
technical descriptions of Telescript, but it appears to have been
written with just this sort of problem in mind and (if its backers have
their way) may before too long have an installed platform base of a few
million users.  If it catches on, some sort of WWW-Telescript
interoperability will be very desirable.  (Pointers to more information
on Telescript would be appreciated.  The best reference I've found to
date is Wired 2.04 p. 102.)

However, the assumption that it is possible to create a safe
interpreted environment for intelligent agents troubles me.  The issue
is not just one of prohibiting agents from making arbitrary system
calls.  Isn't it the case that any non-trivial application requires
access to data which are in some way sensitive, and that sensitive data
by definition would be vulnerable to misuse by a malicious agent?
(This is most obvious in the case of agents with write access, but
potentially true even if agents have only read access.)  My point is
that if my data are sensitive, I will want to retain control of the
*algorithms* used to access them.  Or am I missing something?

-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu
-- Systems Programmer and RiceInfo Administrator, Rice University
-- 2002-A Guadalupe St. #285, Austin, TX 78705 / 512-323-0708
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To: meeks@osf.org, www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Re: Distinguishing between submit buttons
Content-Length: 468

Current browsers (e.g. Netscape Navigator) should be able to
handle multiple submit buttons:

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Multiple submits</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FORM METHOD="POST" ACTION="/cgi-bin/env">
Enter a query: <INPUT NAME="QUERY" TYPE="text" SIZE="48"><BR>
<INPUT NAME="SUBMIT" TYPE="submit" VALUE="Browse">
<INPUT NAME="SUBMIT" TYPE="submit" VALUE="Submit">
<INPUT TYPE="reset" VALUE="Reset">
</FORM>
</BODY>
</HTML>

will send SUBMIT=Browse or SUBMIT=Submit

-pt
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From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle)
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Subject: Telescript information (was: Web Scripting Languages)
To: riddle@is.rice.edu (riddle)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:14:09 -0600 (CST)
Cc: FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com, hallam@dxal18.cern.ch,
        www-security@ns2.rutgers.edu, www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "riddle" at Mar 7, 95 09:11:04 am
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> From riddle Tue Mar  7 09:11:04 1995
> Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
> To: FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com (Fisher Mark)
> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:11:04 -0600 (CST)
> Cc: hallam@dxal18.cern.ch, www-security@ns2.rutgers.edu, www-talk@www10.w3.org
> 
> Another base worth looking at, if only for comparative purposes, would
> be General Magic's Telescript.  I haven't been able to find any
> technical descriptions of Telescript, but it appears to have been
> written with just this sort of problem in mind and (if its backers have
> their way) may before too long have an installed platform base of a few
> million users.  If it catches on, some sort of WWW-Telescript
> interoperability will be very desirable.  (Pointers to more information
> on Telescript would be appreciated.  The best reference I've found to
> date is Wired 2.04 p. 102.)

There's nothing like revealing my ignorance to make information pop out
of the woodwork!  The sixth general WWW index I tried, Lycos, finally had
a few hits in a search for "Telescript".   Here are the most illuminating:

	CJ Silverio's informal General Magic page
	http://www.spies.com/ceej/magic.html

	The official General Magic corporate home page
	http://www.genmagic.com/

	Pointers to technical info on Telescript (some only on paper)
	http://minsky.med.Virginia.EDU:80/sdm7g/Projects/Python/TeleScript/

	Article on intelligent agents from The Economist (14May94 pp 87-88)
	http://phenom.physics.wisc.edu/~shalizi/Economist_Articles/agents.html

The General Magic home page includes references to two mailing lists,
MAGICCAP for users and MAGICDEV for developers.

-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu
-- Systems Programmer and RiceInfo Administrator, Rice University
-- 2002-A Guadalupe St. #285, Austin, TX 78705 / 512-323-0708
-- Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
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From: <mwl@nrc.gov>  (Matt Lewis)
To: <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Distinguishing between submit buttons  (SMTP Id#: 31343) -Reply
Date: Tue Mar  7 11:23:06 1995
Content-Length: 1050

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi,
	Would someone know on how to distinguish between
two submit buttons 
in the same form. In my application, one of them is for
"Browse", while 
the other one is for "Submit". the CGI script has to take
different 
actions for the two. Can't put browse in a separate form as
both buttons 
need some common fields.

Thanxall
Rupesh
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Use separate values in your submit button definitions, such
as:
<p><INPUT NAME="SUBMIT" TYPE="submit"
VALUE="browse"> </p>
<p><INPUT NAME="SUBMIT" TYPE="submit"
VALUE="submit"> </p>

Have your script search for the value of SUBMIT.  If it
=browse execute the appropriate script or portion of the
script.  If SUBMIT=submit, then execute the submit script or
portion of code.  

Theoretically this should work, but I have not tried it, so I can
not validate it.

--- Nuclear Regulatory Commission
| Matt Lewis                      Email: mwl@nrc.gov              |
| Network Solutions, Inc.         Phone: 301-718-1770        |
| Bethesda, MD (Washington, DC)     Fax: 301-907-3227  |



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Subject: Re: Distinguishing between submit buttons
To: jern@spaceaix.jhuapl.edu
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In-Reply-To: <9503071339.AA19285@sdrmis.jhuapl.edu> from "jern@spaceaix.jhuapl.edu" at Mar 7, 95 08:50:31 am
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Rupesh said

> 	Would someone know on how to distinguish between two submit buttons 
> in the same form. In my application, one of them is for "Browse", while 
> the other one is for "Submit". the CGI script has to take different 
> actions for the two. Can't put browse in a separate form as both buttons 
> need some common fields.

Use different name attributes for the two submit buttons:

<input type=submit name="browse" value="Browse...">
<input type=submit name="submit" value="Submit form">

You will get the name=value pair for a named submit button, so you can tell 
which one was pressed.

--
Chris Lilley
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Technical Author, Manchester and North HPC Training & Education Centre  |
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From: cyusta@taux01.nsc.com ( Yuval Shahar )
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: ITU T.171
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 Apparently there is an ISO standard dealing with hypermedia (13522), which
 I was unaware of until it was recently submitted to ITU SG8 (as a draft rec
 for T.171).

 Briefly, the standard describes a syntax for coding "multimedia and
 hypermedia" objects. The syntax is either ASN.1 or an SGML DTD (which are
 supposed to be isomorphic for this purpose), and the encoding is either BER
 or SDIF respectively (where SDIF is the ISO SGML Interchange format, which
 I am not familiar with). The standard also supports realtime objects, and
 is targeted towards TV oriented navigation, information kiosks, home
 shopping, games etc.

 Has anyone in www-land studied this document in the context of the Web? Is
 anyone aware of conforming applications? Does anyone have a URL for HyperODA
 (the ODA extensions for hypermedia) and SMSL (the ISO hypermedia oriented
 scripting language)?

 Thanks,
  Yuval

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For what it is worth...
I have not seen any XMosaic browser send the SUBMIT value in the name/value
pairs. I just tested a couple different versions. I believe there were both
different versions of "NCSA Mosaic for the X Window System".

jjjones
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Text item: Windows NT servers and CGI scripts

  I'm running the .96 version of httpd server for windows NT, and was
  wondering if anyone has
  been able to run scripts on the NT platform.  How difficult is it, and
  where can I get some
  source code?  Any pointers in the right direction would be greatly
  appreciated!

  Thanks,
  kbuttler@lante.com

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From: Bert Bos <bert@let.rug.nl>
Subject: Client-side scripts
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It's funny how suddenly a number of people seem to be thinking about
the same thing. After the recent messages on interactive documents &
client-side scripts here and even on the HTML-wg list, it seems proper
that I post my thoughts on the subject that I've jotted down over the
past few weeks.

	   -----------------------------------------------
		    "HyperText Scripting Language"

The recent discussions of client-side image maps, extensions to the
ISMAP-capability, client-side highlighting, etc. suggest that the time
is slowly getting ripe for client-side scripting. By that I mean a
bold leap away from all those half-hearted HTML extensions into a
completely new language.

In the past we have had discussions about all kinds of `safe' variants
of languages such as Scheme, Tcl, Python, and C. Those discussions
were probably premature and I'm not even sure that we know enough
about the Web now to do better, but still, another round of
discussions cannot hurt.

So, to stimulate some thought, here are my ideas, in random order, and
untested.

1. Let's be ambitious: take the best features of existing browsers,
CGI scripts, and stand-alone multi-media products and extrapolate as
far as you can. Then ask: what language do we need to send all this
over the wire plus:

  - animated algorithms with user settable parameters

  - text that slips away when you try to click on it

  - thumbnail HTML pages that circle each other on the screen

  - a complete browser for images in YAIF format

  - an update for your browser's HTML editor that auto-installs

  - a news-flash that updates itself every 5 minutes

  - a ticking clock that displays the users's local time

  - a `screen saver' for your browser's window

  - a script to get a page from somewhere & add highlighting

2. Obviously, the language must be `safe' (to the level chosen by the
user), but it should also be distributable in both source and binary
form. That is, we standardize on a `Uniform Object Code' (or bytecode,
or p-code, or...) and define a high-level language along with it.
Binary distribution should provide some form of protection against
plagiarism. Emulator technology has matured enough to make a UOC
interpreter feasible, with negligible loss of speed.

3. Make it (i.e., the suggested high-level language) a language that
*really* supports reusable code, through much restricted OOP: instance
variables are never exported, not even to subclasses; memory
management is automatic, through garbage collection; type checking
cannot be evaded, not even the run-time checking can be disabled.

4. Define an API consisting of the services that a program in this
language can expect to be present in its environment. This includes
such things as getting a document by URL, managing windows, displaying
a document in format X, etc. This could be in the form of a set of
classes, from which a program is created by subclassing.

5. Apart from a small kernel, you could even write the browser itself
in this language.

6. The language would solve the problems mentioned in the first
paragraph:

  - client-side image maps: the SRC-attribute of the IMG tag doesn't
    refer to an image, but to a script that, in turn, retrieves the
    image, displays it in its allocated sub-window and processes the
    user's mouse clicks.

  - multi-click imagemaps: ditto

  - client-side highlighting: current index servers generate a page of
    HTML with the search results, usully in the form of hyperlinks to
    the requested documents. New servers would generate a script
    instead, that included not only the list of URLs, but also the
    logic to modify a document after the user has retrieved it.

7. Difficult question: when a document is static, pressing the `Back'
button is unambiguous: you go back to exactly the same document that
you saw earlier. But if that document is dynamic, do you go back to
the state you left it in, to its start state, or does the `document'
continue to evolve even while you don't look at it? The examples above
of the news flash and the clock seem to suggest that the document
continues to evolve. But what if you go back to a document that has
long been removed from the browser's memory?

On the other hand, maybe this isn't such a difficult question after
all. In my browser I've made a distinction between short-term and
long-term memory: a certain number of pages is still there, though
hidden by newer ones. They have left a visual trace and when that
trace disappears you know that the page has fallen off the edge and
has to be reloaded if you want to go back to it. As long as that trace
is there, you don't go `back', you just bring it to the front.

8. One of the examples above already mentioned it: when you want to
distribute your data in some non-standard form, you can now do so:
just ship the reader along with the document. Its like those
self-extracting archives, which you can use even if you don't have
zip, arc, zoo, etc.

9. So far, I've talked about applications where the purpose of the
script was to interact with the user. Maybe the language can be used
to implement those much-hyped `agents' as well. Maybe you can collect
some scripts that you can send off to a server to run under its wings
for a while, negotiating and processing information before contacting
its home base again and passing on what it learned. Once you have a
program with good algorithms for deciding what information is useful
and what not, you can send the program instead of typing in a complex
boolean query.

10. The culture of the printed document has forced on us the use of
2-dimensional, static logos on letterheads, home pages, even in the
corners of television screens. Why not create moving logos?  A logo in
the corner of your HTML document that exhibits recognizable behaviour
instead of having a recognizable form.



Bert
-- 
                          Bert Bos                      Alfa-informatica
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Subject: Re: ITU T.171
To: cyusta@taux01.nsc.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:39:36 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9503071711.AA18002@tasu5e.nsc.com> from "Yuval Shahar" at Mar 7, 95 12:37:25 pm
Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK
Phone: +44 0161 275 6045
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Yuval Shahar writes:

>  Apparently there is an ISO standard dealing with hypermedia 

There are several, and more coming out all the time ;-) All the ISO
committees want to do multimedia!

> (13522), which I was unaware of until it was recently submitted to 
> ITU SG8 (as a draft rec for T.171).

What is the title of this ISO standard? It sounds like it could be MHEG
from your description.

>  Has anyone in www-land studied this document in the context of the Web? Is
>  anyone aware of conforming applications? 

Not me.

> Does anyone have a URL for HyperODA (the ODA extensions for hypermedia)

Oh come on, ODA is a Dodo.

> and SMSL (the ISO hypermedia oriented scripting language)?

Heard of it, not used it. If you are interested in the interaction between
ISO-standards and The Real World &trade; I suppose you have looked into PREMO?

  <http://www.cwi.nl/Premo/>
  
--
Chris Lilley
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Subject: Multiple submit buttons
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:39:23 -0500 (EST)
>From: "CyberWeb" <web@sowebo.CHARM.NET>
>From: Dr.Web@Stars.com
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      I've found multiple submit buttons to be very useful for a number
      of applications where the fact that not every browser implements
      them is not critical - for example, I used them to sequence slides
      for my DCI/WebWorld presentations [much easier than using hyperlinks,
      there's just a list of slides, which is very easy to manage..].

      I'm also using them to create a menu, at the bottom of the page 
      accessed via my sig.url; again, this technique makes it Real Easy
      to manage a menu, and avoids image downloading, etc... However, I
      fear it won't work for all browsers (in this case there are other
      ways to reach those links..). I'd be very interested in getting some
      feedback about which browsers it doesn't work for, and v.v.

      If there's sufficient interest I'll publish the Perl code for those
      two applications, here or at the WDVL.

      Alan.
      ___________________________________________________________________
      Dr.Web@Stars.com -=*<URL:http://WWW.Stars.com/>*=- 1 (301) 552 0272
      Web Developer's Virtual Library * CyberWeb SoftWare * WWW Databases
      HTML * CGI * Training * Transatlantic Liaison * Per Ardua, Ad Astra
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I've started some Hypernews pages on the issue of making the Web safe  
for interactivity -- as a place to collect and organize some of the  
diverse and insightful ideas being tossed about in this discussion.

I hope the active discussion will remain on these mailing lists;   
this works well with Hypernews since it lets you annotate the  
articles with pointers to (e.g.) your archived email messages.

Let me know if this is a useful service.  The current URL is:

<URL:http://www.geom.umn.edu/hypernews/get/interactive/index.html>


Here's the first page, in text form:
------------------------------------------------------------

Towards Standards for an Interactive Web

Discussion page maintained by Paul Burchard <burchard@geom.umn.edu>. 


You can add contribute to these  HyperNews  documents. References to  
relevant articles in the  HTML-WG  or  WWW-Talk  archives are  
especially encouraged.

The first phase of this discussion is about the design requirements  
for various types of interactivity. The focus is on clarifying the  
needs of applications, with minimal prejudice as to implementation.  
Experimental implementations are nevertheless essential for revealing  
additional design considerations. Each topic or subtopic contains: 


* General reasons why this should be a design requirement. 

* General reasons why this should NOT be a design requirement. 

* Applications which are claimed to require this feature. 

* Proposed or experimental solutions. 

* Subsidiary issues to be resolved.

The classification and description of requirements will evolve as the  
discussion proceeds. 



Phase I: Evaluation of Design Requirements.

(Is this list complete? usefully categorized?) 


* Client-side scripting.  

	* Framework orthogonal to document format. 

	* Framework orthogonal to scripting language. 


* Client-side binary extensions ("components").  


* Server-to-client callbacks.  


* Session protocols (client-server or peer-to-peer).  


* Complete range of GUI events.  

	* Use existing standard for event records. 

	* Prepackaged rubber-banding. 


* Complete GUI layout control. 


 

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``I'm still learning how to count backwards from infinity...''
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Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
From: Alvin Starr <alvin@eyepoint.com>
To: riddle@is.rice.edu
Date: 	Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:29:56 -0500
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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At the cost of entering the fray here is my $.02(or about $.03 CDN and going up)

> Another base worth looking at, if only for comparative purposes, would
> be General Magic's Telescript.  I haven't been able to find any
> technical descriptions of Telescript, but it appears to have been

If I had my choice of languages to use for remote execution I would pick TURING.
TURING is a full and simple to use programming language that has a number of 
features would make it ideally suited to use as an agent scripting language.
1) Turing has a formal and provable semantics(this includes IO) and
   claims to meet the US DOD criteria as a TRUSTED language.
2) both compilers and interpreters exist for Turing.
3) Turing supports `faithful execution`; this means that either a program is
   executed according to the language semantics or else it is halted with a
   message describing the nature of the failure.

> written with just this sort of problem in mind and (if its backers have
> their way) may before too long have an installed platform base of a few
> million users.  If it catches on, some sort of WWW-Telescript
> interoperability will be very desirable.  (Pointers to more information
> on Telescript would be appreciated.  The best reference I've found to
> date is Wired 2.04 p. 102.)
> 
> However, the assumption that it is possible to create a safe
> interpreted environment for intelligent agents troubles me.  The issue
> is not just one of prohibiting agents from making arbitrary system
> calls.  Isn't it the case that any non-trivial application requires
> access to data which are in some way sensitive, and that sensitive data
> by definition would be vulnerable to misuse by a malicious agent?
> (This is most obvious in the case of agents with write access, but
> potentially true even if agents have only read access.)  My point is
> that if my data are sensitive, I will want to retain control of the
> *algorithms* used to access them.  Or am I missing something?

I would argue that the agent is not as important as who's agent is it.
If you give a person access to your system then what is wrong with giving
their agent the same access. In this way all of the standard security rules
that apply to normal users should apply to their agents. The main issue that
I can see is that a reliable way to verify who this agent belongs to, needs to
be developed. A second issue would be insuring that the language/protocol 
that is used by agents is reliable and verifiable.

What ever ends up becoming a standard for allowing agent execution it should
be reliable and stringently checked. If the current trend in software
development is used then the internet worm and other virus incidents will pale
in comparison to what will happen. 

-- 
Alvin Starr                   ||   voice: (905)513-6717
Eyepoint Inc.                 ||   fax:   (905)513-6718
alvin@eyepoint.com            ||
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Pat Ryan writes:
 > 
 > 	I need to find out what, if any, copyrights exist on the protocol
 > documents archived at W3C.

Hmmm... I haven't checked into it officially, but I think you can
safely proceed as if it all has the MIT X11 copyright statement,
i.e. as long as you don't claim ownership, you can do anything
you want with it.

 >  Specifically, I'm working the chapter on
 > HTTP/1.0 right now.  I realize that the spec is an "Internet draft" and
 > subject to change without notice.  During my examination of the protocol, I
 > need to copy certain descriptions almost word-for-word.

As long as you cite your source and make a good faith effort to use
the most up-to-date material on the web, I think this is fine.

 > 	Now, I certainly don't want to be accused of plagiarism or get my
 > tush dragged into court.

If you want to be certain, check with a lawyer. In fact, have Prentice
Hall's lawyer check into it. But I think you're pretty darned safe.

 > 	Whom do I contact to find out what permissions I need?

Hmmm... somebody at the IETF, and somebody at W3C -- probably timbl@w3.org.
I don't know whom to contact at IETF. Their web server is at:

	http://www.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/

 >  And while
 > I'm asking, who hold the copyrights on RFCs?  Is it IETF?  The individual
 > authors?

Good question. I think the authors, though RFCs always say
"distribution of this memo is unlimited."

Dan
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Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
To: alvin@eyepoint.com (Alvin Starr)
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> From alvin@eyepoint.com  Tue Mar  7 16:30:49 1995
> Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
> From: Alvin Starr <alvin@eyepoint.com>
> To: riddle@is.rice.edu
> Date: 	Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:29:56 -0500
> 
> > However, the assumption that it is possible to create a safe
> > interpreted environment for intelligent agents troubles me.  The issue
> > is not just one of prohibiting agents from making arbitrary system
> > calls.  Isn't it the case that any non-trivial application requires
> > access to data which are in some way sensitive, and that sensitive data
> > by definition would be vulnerable to misuse by a malicious agent?
> > (This is most obvious in the case of agents with write access, but
> > potentially true even if agents have only read access.)  My point is
> > that if my data are sensitive, I will want to retain control of the
> > *algorithms* used to access them.  Or am I missing something?
> 
> I would argue that the agent is not as important as who's agent is it.
> If you give a person access to your system then what is wrong with giving
> their agent the same access. In this way all of the standard security rules
> that apply to normal users should apply to their agents.

Good point.  Although I would like to be able to provide many classes
of services to people (or their agents) to whom I would never grant,
say, a Unix shell account.

A separate issue, but one we should consider as well, is that an
"intelligent" agent might be unintelligent enough to make certain
mistakes that a human would never make.  I'm thinking of things like
getting into an infinite loop and issuing the same query a million
times (poorly programmed WWW robots are a current example of this).
The kinds of software pathology they've been worrying about for years
in the RISKS Digest all apply to intelligent agents, and both the
designers of agents and the designers of services that agents interact
with need to be aware of them.  For this reason, it might be that I
would be willing to grant a human more access than I would grant his or
her robotic agent.

-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu
-- Systems Programmer and RiceInfo Administrator, Rice University
-- 2002-A Guadalupe St. #285, Austin, TX 78705 / 512-323-0708
-- Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
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Subject: Re: Client-side sripts
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	OAK is nice. 

-- 
Rick Troth <troth@rice.edu>, Rice University, Information Systems 
http://is.rice.edu/~troth/ 


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On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Prentiss Riddle cited my page of TeleScript info:

> 
> 	Pointers to technical info on Telescript (some only on paper)
> 	http://minsky.med.Virginia.EDU:80/sdm7g/Projects/Python/TeleScript/
> 

That is part of a collection of material about agentware and component-ware
( OpenDoc, SOM, OSA, ILU, CORBA, ... ) that are included as part of my
notes on a restricted/safe execution environment for Python which we 
diiscussed at the Python Workshop at NIST last November. 

<http://minsky.med.Virginia.EDU:80/sdm7g/Projects/Python/SafePython.html> 

( Some of the necessary hooks are implemented in the currently testing
beta version of Python. ) 


I haven't had time to update or reorganize the info on that page lately
( there's a lot of stuff just dumped into the /Misc subdirectory! ), so
I'll post the latest batch here: 

[ And I'll reserve my comments on some particular proposals and problems 
  for a later post. ] 



There is a software agents mailing list that has been somewhat
inactive while being moved from a Lookheed Listserv to one at
Sun, but from its charter, it would seem the appropriate place 
to discuss agent programming languages (TeleScript, safe-tcl,
etc. ) and protocols and compare implementation tricks. 

 Subscription address: <listserv@sunlabs.sun.com>

With a home page and archives at:

<http://www.smli.com/research/tcl/lists/agents-list.html>



There is a lot of links and papers on Intelligent Agents at:

Ralph Becket's page on Intelligent Software Agents: 
	<http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rwab1/agents.html>

Tim Finin's page on Software Agents:
	<http://www.cs.umbc.edu/agents> 

Andy Wood's page of Software Agents:
	<http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~amw/agents>


The AI world uses "agents" for a number of different things including
programs like Coach or MicroSoft's BOB - which I wouldn't consider
"agents" in the strict sense, but much of the research IS relevant - 
especially in the area of how agents can interact and share information
with each other. 


---|  Steven D. Majewski   (804-982-0831)  <sdm7g@Virginia.EDU>  |---
---|  Computer Systems Engineer          University of Virginia  |---
---|  Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics  |---
---|  Box 449 Health Science Center    Charlottesville,VA 22908  |---

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        "Telescript information (was: Web Scripting Languages)" (Mar  7, 10:14)
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On Mar 7, 10:14, Prentiss Riddle wrote:
> > From riddle Tue Mar  7 09:11:04 1995
> > Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication

Ho, kiel dankinde pri TeleScript!

Kaj kiel interese ke denove nia padoj krucigxas.  Denove temas pri
lingvoj....

Neal.McBurnett@att.com	303-538-4852	AT&T Bell Labs, Denver
Boulder Public Library Commission
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Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 12:31:41 +0000
From: Duncan White <d.white@surrey.ac.uk>
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Alvin Starr <alvin@eyepoint.com> writes:
>I would argue that the agent is not as important as who's agent is it.
>If you give a person access to your system then what is wrong with giving
>their agent the same access. In this way all of the standard security rules
>that apply to normal users should apply to their agents.

Hang on, surely this completely undercuts the whole idea of agents?  I think it
would be very sad if "my" agents could only run on machines where I have an
account!

In Message <9503080318.AA29760@is.rice.edu> Prentiss Riddle
<riddle@is.rice.edu> replies:
>.. I would like to be able to provide many classes
>of services to people (or their agents) to whom I would never grant,
>say, a Unix shell account.

Indeed!  In a controlled environment..

Prentiss continues:
>A separate issue, but one we should consider as well, is that an
>"intelligent" agent might be unintelligent enough to make certain
>mistakes that a human would never make.  I'm thinking of things like
>getting into an infinite loop and issuing the same query a million
>times (poorly programmed WWW robots are a current example of this).
>The kinds of software pathology they've been worrying about for years
>in the RISKS Digest all apply to intelligent agents, and both the
>designers of agents and the designers of services that agents interact
>with need to be aware of them.  For this reason, it might be that I
>would be willing to grant a human more access than I would grant his or
>her robotic agent.

I entirely agree - as a system administrator myself, I would not enable a
hypothetical "agent-receiver" service on any machine I adminstrate UNLESS I
was entirely sure that no agents could do harm, or deny services, to my
machines and users.

As a solution both to infinite loops (specifically) and the more general
cooperative nature of agents executing on other people's host machines, may
I suggest that agents should not be allowed to run indefinitely.  CPU usage
of a host by agents would be a resource should be controlled.

So, how about the host donating only a certain maximum run time to an
individual agent, and running no more than a certain number of agents at once?
ie. The host could forcibly cease interpreting/running the agent after a given
run time has elapsed.  When an agent arrives on a host, it could effectively
negotiate its time limit with its new host.  For example, the agent might
declare that it wants to run for up to 10 minutes, whereas the host might only
be prepared to let it run for 1 minute.  The host obviously must have the last
word (since this is cooperative processing on other people's machines), and
could then inform the agent that 1 minute is all it's getting.  This could be
used by the script to change how "deeply" it searches, perhaps..

>-- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu
>-- Systems Programmer and RiceInfo Administrator, Rice University
>-- 2002-A Guadalupe St. #285, Austin, TX 78705 / 512-323-0708
>-- Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

	cheers,
	duncan

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Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
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> 1) Turing has a formal and provable semantics(this includes IO) and
>    claims to meet the US DOD criteria as a TRUSTED language.

What US DOD criteria for TRUSTED languages? Got any pointers? Thanks.
	Mez


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Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages (was: Re: two-way communication in html)
From: Alvin Starr <alvin@eyepoint.com>
To: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle)
Date: 	Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:46:12 -0500
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> Good point.  Although I would like to be able to provide many classes
> of services to people (or their agents) to whom I would never grant,
> say, a Unix shell account.

I agree. One of the problems with UNIX as it exists is that there is little
reasonable control over access to data and programs. I would like to see
a system that supports both Access Control Lists and Integrity Control Lists.
Systems should also include a set of tools to manage and monitor the security
of a system. Currently I know of no tools that can effectively manage systems
in a way that the tools can be used by someone with less than a "GURU" standing.

> A separate issue, but one we should consider as well, is that an
> "intelligent" agent might be unintelligent enough to make certain
> mistakes that a human would never make.  I'm thinking of things like
> getting into an infinite loop and issuing the same query a million
> times (poorly programmed WWW robots are a current example of this).
> The kinds of software pathology they've been worrying about for years
> in the RISKS Digest all apply to intelligent agents, and both the
> designers of agents and the designers of services that agents interact
> with need to be aware of them.  For this reason, it might be that I
> would be willing to grant a human more access than I would grant his or
> her robotic agent.

You may be able to make a system idiot proof but it can never be made fool
proof. Because fools are so ingenious;)

It should be possible handle resource allocation and monitoring on a level
that has a finer grain then the "user". For example why not limit the number
of CPU cycles that can be spent running a program on an individual program
basis, or why not continue that to be able to limit resource usage based on
the data file being accessed.

User,Group,Others along with Read,Write,Execute is not near enough control 
to be able to allow people reasonable access to systems in a secure and
managed way. 
I would like to see a scheme similar to OS/2's Extended Attributes where a
system can store arbitrary information associated with a file. EA's in OS/2
are not the answer as they stand now, but they are a good idea. 

<rant mode on>
At some point in the future it may be that we will have operating systems that
are capable of supporting the kind of features necessary to support agents
and use by the public in general. But to get there we will have to abandon
the current 20 year old software design philosophy.
When UNIX was first developed operating systems of the day were written in 
assembler. 20 years later C has replaced assemble, and for C++ just think
of a macro assembler. With the newer languages and tools available why are
we now using the 90's moral equivalent of assembler?
<rant mode off>

-- 
Alvin Starr                   ||   voice: (905)513-6717
Eyepoint Inc.                 ||   fax:   (905)513-6718
alvin@eyepoint.com            ||
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Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages
From: Alvin Starr <alvin@eyepoint.com>
To: d.white@surrey.ac.uk
Date: 	Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:00:39 -0500
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9503081231.aa14446@ainur.ee.surrey.ac.uk>; from "Duncan White" at Mar 7, 95 10:08 pm
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> Alvin Starr <alvin@eyepoint.com> writes:
> >I would argue that the agent is not as important as who's agent is it.
> >If you give a person access to your system then what is wrong with giving
> >their agent the same access. In this way all of the standard security rules
> >that apply to normal users should apply to their agents.
> 
> Hang on, surely this completely undercuts the whole idea of agents? I think it

If you anonymous FTP to a system and you are allowed access then at that
point you are a user. what about loggin into a system as GUEST?. Why not
allow "user" login and access based on other criteria then the fact that
an administrator has created a login and password for you. Why not use the 
net ID of the person logging in. That way a system could limit access based
on user information provided at login. Various levels of access could be
proviede based on the ability to validate the users origin. 

> would be very sad if "my" agents could only run on machines where I have an
> account!
> 

> So, how about the host donating only a certain maximum run time to an
> individual agent, and running no more than a certain number of agents at once?
> ie. The host could forcibly cease interpreting/running the agent after a given
> run time has elapsed.  When an agent arrives on a host, it could effectively
> negotiate its time limit with its new host.  For example, the agent might
> declare that it wants to run for up to 10 minutes, whereas the host might only
> be prepared to let it run for 1 minute.  The host obviously must have the last
> word (since this is cooperative processing on other people's machines), and
> could then inform the agent that 1 minute is all it's getting.  This could be
> used by the script to change how "deeply" it searches, perhaps..
> 
Yes. Yes. Yes. All we need is more accounting and control information
associated with files. Allong with ACL's and ICL's.

> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Duncan C. White, Software Support Officer, Room 36BB20, Dept. of Elec Eng,
>                  University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 5XH, UK.
> Email:	D.White@ee.surrey.ac.uk  		Direct phone: +44 1483 259826
> Fax:	+44 1483 34139
> URL:	http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/showstaff?D.White
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Aaarrgh!  There's the monster!"
> "What, behind that rabbit?"
> 	Monty Python and the Holy Grail
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


-- 
Alvin Starr                   ||   voice: (905)513-6717
Eyepoint Inc.                 ||   fax:   (905)513-6718
alvin@eyepoint.com            ||
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Subject: Re: Web Scripting Languages
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 16:44:51 +0000
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Alvin Starr <alvin@eyepoint.com> wrote:
> I would argue that the agent is not as important as who's agent is it.
> If you give a person access to your system then what is wrong with giving
> their agent the same access. In this way all of the standard security rules
> that apply to normal users should apply to their agents.

Alvin now adds (in a separate message):
>If you anonymous FTP to a system and you are allowed access then at that
>point you are a user. what about loggin into a system as GUEST?. Why not
>allow "user" login and access based on other criteria then the fact that
>an administrator has created a login and password for you. Why not use the 
>net ID of the person logging in. That way a system could limit access based
>on user information provided at login. Various levels of access could be
>proviede based on the ability to validate the users origin. 

Ok; I agree that there could be a "guest" agent account, rather low-privilege,
with the option of gaining additional privilege only if the agent can be
proven to come from a trustworthy site/user.  But you'd have to beware network
impersonations, so I guess there might have to have some unforgable digital
signature on the agent, perhaps summat like PGP?

I rather suspect that, in practice, most agents would run as the guest agent
account.  I'm not entirely convinced that the complexity (digital signatures
etc) you add to get the higher levels of privilege is worth it, but that's
just a gut feeling..

I had said, in an earlier message:
> So, how about the host donating only a certain maximum run time to an
> individual agent, and running no more than a certain number of agents at once?
> ie. The host could forcibly cease interpreting/running the agent after a given
> run time has elapsed.  When an agent arrives on a host, it could effectively
> negotiate its time limit with its new host.  For example, the agent might
> declare that it wants to run for up to 10 minutes, whereas the host might only
> be prepared to let it run for 1 minute.  The host obviously must have the last
> word (since this is cooperative processing on other people's machines), and
> could then inform the agent that 1 minute is all it's getting.  This could be
> used by the script to change how "deeply" it searches, perhaps..

Alvin replies:
>Yes. Yes. Yes. All we need is more accounting and control information
>associated with files. Allong with ACL's and ICL's.

Ummm.. at the risk of showing my ignorance, what are ACLs and ICLs?

Glad you like the idea (I'm sure it's not original, but no one seemed to be
mentioning it in the discussion)...  As you say, we would then need to think
about file access privilege, and a major area for a Web scripting language
must be what it does onscreen in terms of user interface control and
presentation of results etc.  All these will be very important..

>Alvin Starr                   ||   voice: (905)513-6717
>Eyepoint Inc.                 ||   fax:   (905)513-6718
>alvin@eyepoint.com            ||

	cheers,
	duncan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Duncan C. White, Software Support Officer, Room 36BB20, Dept. of Elec Eng,
                 University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 5XH, UK.
Email:	D.White@ee.surrey.ac.uk  		Direct phone: +44 1483 259826
Fax:	+44 1483 34139
URL:	http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/showstaff?D.White
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Aaarrgh!  There's the monster!"
"What, behind that rabbit?"
	Monty Python and the Holy Grail
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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=46rom: hws.edu
Subject: searching for goldst on lynx

I am trying to reach a friend who is on my vax account here at hws.ed=
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I am wondering if I can use the 'phone mode to talk to him directly?


=82=82






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[ Sorry for the wide cross-mailing, but I'm trying to link two threads 
  on www-talk and html-wg with and old posting from Dave Crocker on 
  safe-tcl mailing list. The agents@sun.com list hasn't been involved
  in that thread, but: what the heck - why NOT the kicthen sink TOO!  
  I would suggest replies to only www-talk & agents lists. Sorry also
  for the length, but I've tried to avoid these debates for a while and
  get some work done, so, as I said, I have a bunch of thread to wrap up. ]


On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, David - Morris wrote:

> 
> I for one will not tolerate generic code being loaded in my machine
> from anywhere based on clicking of links.  The security implications
> are mind-boggling. Popup warnings are not sufficient for those unprepared
> to evaluate the implications.
> 
> Well before we need to re-invent X I suggest we should:
  [ ... ] 
> 
> Beyond this, the question at this point needs to be the capabilities of
> browser scriptability not the language or implementation.  Tcl, perl, rexx,
> a new vm, VBasic, Citrix remote NT protcols, X client / server protocols, 
> etc. are all possible ways to represent remote control over the user's
> interface but I think discussions about the implementation(s) now before
> we have a careful set of objectives is putting the cart before horse.
> 
> The capability matrix might factor in trustworthyness of the source of
> the 'code' -- if there is a need for function which might compromise
> the security of the user's environment.
> 

Although I have been doing some work on Python as a distributed agent 
language ( and have looked at Oblique, safe-tcl, TeleScript, et. al. )
I have to say that I share (some of) David Morris views. 

 To make *any* remote execution system safe, the functions and capabilities
have to be standardized on a higher level. ( This has been discussed on
the safe-tcl mailing list, and elsewhere as the "client trying to open
soctet connection to nn.nn.nn.nn.port - allow ?" vs. "client requests SMTP
connection to <president@whitehouse.gov> with message text: "Die commie Pig!" "
styles of request verification. :-) 

 If we had a requirements analysis of these higher level functions, then
it wouldn't make much difference what particular language syntax was 
used - in fact, the higher level you go, the less it needs to be 
considered as or implemented as procedural language. 

 Nathaniel Borenstein has argued for a procedural language (safe-tcl) 
because he's not quite sure what *exactly* he wants to do. (That is also
why I'm experimenting with Python agents. ) However, it is just that open
endedness and lack of standard higher-level functions that makes it 
not, in general, practically safe. Given a standardization of the 
necessary set of higher level access functions for the Web ( the ones 
that ensure you get messages like the second one above and not the first. 
Try installing system code on a Mac with Virus Protection turned on if
you want to see another example of the wrong type/level of messages. ) 
I'm not *sure* that you need to wrap them in a procedural language.

There *are* reasons why I think this is an important research area - but 
despite the eagerness of folks to jump into commercial "agentware", I 
think it's still largely research, and not ready for commercial prime 
time OR standardization. ( Of course, things change very quickly in our
world. :-) 


On Sat, 10 Dec 1994, Dave Crocker wrote:
( Some time ago, on the safe-tcl list, which I never got around to 
  completely responding to at the time. ) 

> At 10:38 AM 12/7/94, Steven D. Majewski wrote:
> >"Safe-Python" the provisional working name for a project to add
> >safe remote-programming & agent capabilities to the Python language.
> 
> a small plea:
> 
> The Python work causes me some concern.  It has nothing to do with issues
> of technical quality...
> 
> I suspect that there is going to be a 'winner' in the mobile agent game.
> The essence of that game is interoperability and having multiple languages
> defeats that goal.
> 
> There is one, significant commercial offering.  It is entirely proprietary
> and the specs aren't public, yet.  I fear that any major competition in the
> open systems agent market is going to serve to strengthen the proprietary
> offering's position.
> 
> At base, this issue has to do with market window and not with technology.
> Telescript has created the market and it is proceeding to fill it, via
> large numbers of strategic relationships with major consumer product
> suppliers.  If its competitors from the open systems realm spend their
> energy distracting folks among multiple choices, Telescript wins.  Period.
> 
> So, my plea is for the open systems mobile agent constituency to try to
> find some way to work on a SINGLE package, with the primary goal of
> attaining maximum penetration.  Get as many people as possible building and
> running this stuff.
> 
> d/
> 
> --------------------
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg Consulting                          Phone:  +1 408 246 8253
> 675 Spruce Dr.                                  Fax:    +1 408 249 6205
> Sunnyvale, CA  94086               Email:  dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu
> 
 

I think this is a plea for "premature standardization". 
( Nobody knows enough about what they are doing in this area. If even 
  GeneralMagic knows, they sure aren't telling in their white papers - 
  at least not in sufficient detail to evaluate it. ) 

I'm not sure that a language is the appropriate thing to be standardized, 
and I'm sure any attempt to do so would be contentious. ( If Dave Crocker 
thinks he's seen some flamage about RPC's for example, on the ietf mailing 
list lately, I suggest he go back and read the "Why you should not use Tcl" 
News thread, and a couple of dozen similar usenet debates. ) 

I may be wrong about the above, but in the meantime, there are more 
fruitful things to standardize. ( David Morris listed some above, and
I have suggested some other directions - particularly distributed
object technology like OSA, ILU, CORBA, SOM/DSOM, OpenDoc, that makes it 
easier for different languages and programs to interoperate. ( And else
where, I have argued that even in a single agent-language enviromment, 
we will require a protocol for the interaction of agents programs with
each other and with their environment. Well - this may not be required 
for WWW client-side agents, but it will be required on the server side
where one of the significant things about agents is their ability to 
negotiate. As for client side agents, I'm not sure that what is wanted 
isn't really X - or a lighter weight equivalent. ( Bring back NeWs ?? ) ) 


One more sobering point of view from Gordon Irlam: 
<http://www.base.com/gordoni/web/distribution.html>

| Agents
| 
| Again, don't believe the hype! We need to turn the net into a distributed
| computational engine, not email little bits of code around and having 
| them execute on different machines. At the language level we want location
| transparancy, we don't want to have to be constantly specifying location. 
| At odds with this is the idea of agents which seems to put an emphasis 
| on location dependence. Location should only make a difference at the
| implementation level. 
|

A sentiment I also agree with ( though I don't think it's necessary to 
make physical location visible in the language. ). 


But before anyone gets the impression I'm against "agentware" - I'm not:
I'm just not sure what the requirements are and where it's appropriate 
technology, and I thing one thing that attracts people about the idea 
is that they can avoid thinking about those requirements or other design
details till tomorrow -- let me mention one area where I do think it's 
appropriate: 


  There was some discussion on the OpenDoc mailing list on what needs to
be done for a document to support some level of functionality in the 
case where there is no part editor or (free) viewer available on the 
machine. Note that this is similar to not having the required helper-app
while browsing on the Web - except that if you are net connected, then 
you have several possible ways to deal with that event - several different
places to draw the boxes. Downloading agent script is one alternative, but
so it punting to a different protocol ( X for example ). For a stand-alone, 
not necessarily net-connected document, there are fewer alternatives. 
One is to fall back on a lowest common denominator representation ( also
a technique used on the Web ), either text or snapshot picture. ( One 
current problem with OpenDoc - there is no cross platform standard for 
the picture format - it's going to be PICT on the Mac, and probably 
something else on other platforms. ) This is where it would be useful
to embed viewing methods ( in some "safe" scripting language ) in the 
document itself.  
  In fact, where I first started thinking about safe/restricted 
programming languages was not in the area of distributed programming,
for scientific databases. We had begun an effort to standardize some
of our data ( written in dozens of different and mostly ad hoc data 
formats ) into NCSA HDF format, and I was unhappily discovering that
that standardization did not solve all of our problems - that HDF still
suffered, in practice, from a form of the TIFF disease - it was too 
extensible for it's own good. I realized that what was necessary was 
an object oriented language & file format where methods needed to 
interpret the data could be encapsulated with the data itself. 
( I didn't do much further at the time except to start to learn O-O 
 programming and look at and evaluate some little languages - but I 
 ran into the same realization that the significant step was not picking 
 a language syntax, but choosing the base classes and methods and 
 primitive functions that one could build on. ) 

In short, I think a standard scripting language without a standard object
model is pretty useless, so lets propose a standard object model(s) 
first, and then decide if we need a common syntax. 

Again, I would suggest looking at Apples Open Scripting Architecture 
as an attempt to standardize the Object model, and standard sets of
methods on those objects, while leaving the particular scripting
language undefined. 
  <http://minsky.med.virginia.edu/sdm7g/Projects/Python/OSA/> 


Other links and references start at:
<http://minsky.med.virginia.edu/sdm7g/Projects/Python/SafePython.html> 


---|  Steven D. Majewski   (804-982-0831)  <sdm7g@Virginia.EDU>  |---
---|  Computer Systems Engineer          University of Virginia  |---
---|  Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics  |---
---|  Box 449 Health Science Center    Charlottesville,VA 22908  |---
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--------
Please,send me more information about www.THANKS.


My e-mail address:    hduman@baum17.ege.edu.tr
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From: cyusta@taux01.nsc.com ( Yuval Shahar )
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To: lilley@afs.mcc.ac.uk
Subject: Re: ITU T.171
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Content-Length: 2204



 Yup, the standard I was referring to is MHEG alright. As for ODA, I heard
 it called worse things, and I partially agree. However, there is a lot to
 be said for an architecture that is thought out in advance...

 Yuval


> From lilley@afs.mcc.ac.uk  Tue Mar  7 21:45:37 1995
> Subject: Re: ITU T.171
>
> Yuval Shahar writes:
> 
> >  Apparently there is an ISO standard dealing with hypermedia 
> 
> There are several, and more coming out all the time ;-) All the ISO
> committees want to do multimedia!
> 
> > (13522), which I was unaware of until it was recently submitted to 
> > ITU SG8 (as a draft rec for T.171).
> 
> What is the title of this ISO standard? It sounds like it could be MHEG
> from your description.
> 
> >  Has anyone in www-land studied this document in the context of the Web? Is
> >  anyone aware of conforming applications? 
> 
> Not me.
> 
> > Does anyone have a URL for HyperODA (the ODA extensions for hypermedia)
> 
> Oh come on, ODA is a Dodo.
> 
> > and SMSL (the ISO hypermedia oriented scripting language)?
> 
> Heard of it, not used it. If you are interested in the interaction between
> ISO-standards and The Real World &trade; I suppose you have looked into PREMO?
> 
>   <http://www.cwi.nl/Premo/>
>   
> --
> Chris Lilley
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Technical Author, Manchester and North HPC Training & Education Centre  |
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Computer Graphics Unit,        |     Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk      |
> | Manchester Computing Centre,   |     Voice: +44 61 275 6045             |
> | Oxford Road,                   |       Fax: +44 61 275 6040             |
> | Manchester, UK.  M13 9PL       |      X400: /I=c /S=lilley              |
> |                 /O=manchester-computing-centre /PRMD=UK.AC /ADMD= /C=GB/|
> |<A HREF="http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html">my page</A> | 
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |This is supposed to be data transfer, not artificial intelligence. M VanH|
> +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> 
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> 
> <rant mode on>
> At some point in the future it may be that we will have operating systems that
> are capable of supporting the kind of features necessary to support agents
> and use by the public in general. But to get there we will have to abandon
> the current 20 year old software design philosophy.
> When UNIX was first developed operating systems of the day were written in 
> assembler. 20 years later C has replaced assemble, and for C++ just think
> of a macro assembler. With the newer languages and tools available why are
> we now using the 90's moral equivalent of assembler?
> <rant mode off>
> 
> -- 
> Alvin Starr                   ||   voice: (905)513-6717
> Eyepoint Inc.                 ||   fax:   (905)513-6718
> alvin@eyepoint.com            ||
> 

	RIGHT ON!

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Date: Thu,  9 Mar 1995 10:03:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@nsb.fv.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>, sdm7g@virginia.edu
Subject: Re: agents [was: Client-Side Scripts & Web Scripting languages ... very long!]
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Excerpts from mail: 9-Mar-95 agents [was: Client-Side Sc.. "Steven D.
Majewski"@vir (10767)

>  Nathaniel Borenstein has argued for a procedural language (safe-tcl) 
> because he's not quite sure what *exactly* he wants to do. (That is also
> why I'm experimenting with Python agents. ) However, it is just that open
> endedness and lack of standard higher-level functions that makes it 
> not, in general, practically safe. 

I think this is not quite an accurate representation of my position,
actually.  I've argued for a procedural language (safe-tcl or something
better, if it comes along) because I want people to be able to do the
maximal possible number of things safely.  It isn't that I'm not sure
what *I* want to do, it's that I am absolutely sure that nobody knows
what *everybody* will want to do.  For that reason, my focus has been on
providing the maximum amount of expressive power that is compatible with
a safe language for untrusted scripts.

To make this crystal clear:  For any KNOWN application, you can probably
define an appropriate data type to "do it right" without a safe
language.  What a safe language provides you with is infrastructure for
future, UNKNOWN applications.  

A good example of this would be event scheduling.  If there were a
safe-tcl-like infrastructure widely available, you could use it to
experiment with the evolutionary development of a good distributed
system for scheduling meetings and the like.  However, once you had
fully elaborated such a system, and understood exactly what your users
needed and wanted from it, you could design a new MIME type
(application/meeting-scheduler) that would probably permit a system that
was in many ways richer and safer than the one based on the safe
language.  (This is analogous to the way SMTP and email evolved out of
FTP, actually.  You can still do most email-like things by FTP, it just
isn't the best way.)

In short, a safe language infrastructure is primarily a tool for the
cutting edge, to streamline and speed up the refinement and development
of new services.  I predict that many of the most successful
applications of such languages will lead directly to new data types that
permit the applications to be implemented WITHOUT the safe language,
because there's probably always going to be more expressive power
available that way.  But the overhead of installing support for such
things in a zillion different systems is very high.  A safe language
will permit a lot of services to be developed and played with in
*advance* of such domain-specific code installation.  

Of course, you still need to get the safe language installed everywhere,
e.g. in all the web browsers.  But once you do that, you can experiment
with advanced services much more easily, and thus start to convince
people about what advanced services are most important, and that's the
major point.  -- Nathaniel
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They are at:

ftp://webrunner.neato.org/docs/papers.tar.Z
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From: Glenn Vanderburg <glv@utdallas.edu>
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org, agents@eng.sun.com
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Subject: Famous last words about agents
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 1995 20:10:35 -0600 (CST)"
             <Pine.A32.3.90.950308210942.24437B-100000@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU> 
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Hmmm ... for some reason I didn't get David Morris' note, although I seem
to have received the rest of this discussion.  But Steven Majewski quoted
something that I'd like to respond to.

David Morris wrote:
>
> I for one will not tolerate generic code being loaded in my machine
> from anywhere based on clicking of links.  The security implications
> are mind-boggling. Popup warnings are not sufficient for those unprepared
> to evaluate the implications.

Just before the January USENIX, a colleague said much the same thing to me.
Then I went to USENIX, and was surprised at how many people were talking
seriously about agents in one form or another (no less than seven of the
speakers and presenters dealt with agents).  I mentioned this difference of
perspective to my boss later, and he noted that just 10 years ago, a great
many people were saying confidently that it was sheerest folly to ever connect
to a network, and that they would never do it.  Today, in spite of the
security implications, many of those same people would not think of doing
business without a network connection of some sort.  The perceived benefits
outweigh the risks.

He, and I, suspect that the same shift in perception will occur with regard
to agents.  There are still huge open questions, and Steven makes a good case
that we perhaps need to shift our focus in deciding how to build agents.  But
I have come to believe that agents will become important, and a lot of people
who currently take David Morris' view will find their attitude changing.

---glv

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From: "Steven D. Majewski" <sdm7g@virginia.edu>
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Subject: Re: agents [was: Client-Side Scripts & Web Scripting languages ... very long!]
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On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Nathaniel Borenstein wrote:

> Excerpts from mail: 9-Mar-95 agents [was: Client-Side Sc.. "Steven D.
> Majewski"@vir (10767)
> 
> >  Nathaniel Borenstein has argued for a procedural language (safe-tcl) 
> > because he's not quite sure what *exactly* he wants to do. (That is also
> > why I'm experimenting with Python agents. ) However, it is just that open
> > endedness and lack of standard higher-level functions that makes it 
> > not, in general, practically safe. 
> 
> I think this is not quite an accurate representation of my position,
> actually.  I've argued for a procedural language (safe-tcl or something
> better, if it comes along) because I want people to be able to do the
> maximal possible number of things safely.  It isn't that I'm not sure
> what *I* want to do, it's that I am absolutely sure that nobody knows
> what *everybody* will want to do.  For that reason, my focus has been on
> providing the maximum amount of expressive power that is compatible with
> a safe language for untrusted scripts.
>

You are correct Nathaniel: that was *not* an accurate representation of your
position. Sorry - my note was long enough without including another bunch
of quotes, and I assumed my interest in working on Python agents would 
imply my sympathy with that position - i.e. it's also my own. Dave Crocker
also took exception to my choice of the pronoun "he" . I certainly did *not*
mean that to be read as "N.B. doesn't know what he's doing" ! And in fact,
your words are a more accurate description of my own views.
 
> 
> In short, a safe language infrastructure is primarily a tool for the
> cutting edge, to streamline and speed up the refinement and development
> of new services.  I predict that many of the most successful
> applications of such languages will lead directly to new data types that
> permit the applications to be implemented WITHOUT the safe language,
> because there's probably always going to be more expressive power
> available that way.  But the overhead of installing support for such
> things in a zillion different systems is very high.  A safe language
> will permit a lot of services to be developed and played with in
> *advance* of such domain-specific code installation.  
> 

All of which I also agree with: when I used the word "research", I didn't
mean two-people-with-a-grant-in-a-room but hundreds-of-people-on-the-net!
( And, eventually, with a good & safe enough distributed language, why
would there be a reason to migrate to the non-procedural protocol? )

> Of course, you still need to get the safe language installed everywhere,
> e.g. in all the web browsers.  But once you do that, you can experiment
> with advanced services much more easily, and thus start to convince
> people about what advanced services are most important, and that's the
> major point. 

One of my points was that without standard libraries for doing Web like
things, and maybe also - at least on the server side - protocols for
agent interaction, or minimally something like TeleScript tickets (or
whatever they call them), we're not quite ready for distributing it
to hundreds of people on the Web, let alone wide scale commercial 
distribution. Safe-tcl ( or Python, or scheme or Oblique or any of
the other erperimental distributed languages ) are currently too low
level to be installed in all the web browsers and used safely. 
( Safe-Tcl + standard high level set of services/libraries *may* be 
 high level enough - or we may have to cycle thru another generation
 of experiments to get it right. ) I don't mean that all advanced
services have to be pre-defined, but there has to be a useful core
set.

 
---|  Steven D. Majewski   (804-982-0831)  <sdm7g@Virginia.EDU>  |---
---|  Computer Systems Engineer          University of Virginia  |---
---|  Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics  |---
---|  Box 449 Health Science Center    Charlottesville,VA 22908  |---

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Subject: Re: Client-side sripts
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Rick Troth writes:
 > 	OAK is nice. 

Gee thanks, Rick. I wonder: how many "What's OAK? Can you give
me a poniter?" replies you got.

Folks: this list has lots of readers these days. And it's archived.
I like to go back through the archive, and it's nice when folks include
URL pointers to the resources they mention.

The poster usually has a URL farily handy -- it takes a minute or
two to dig it up, but you save yourself all the time of writing
those "What is OAK?" messages. I speak from experience.

Dan
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Date:         Thu, 09 Mar 95 11:31:26 CST
From: Rick Troth <TROTH@ua1vm.ua.edu>
Subject:      Re: agents [was: Client-Side Scripts & Web Scripting languages ...
 very long!]
To: "Steven D. Majewski" <sdm7g@virginia.edu>,
        Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
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        Excellent points and overvations,  Steve.

        This may have been mentioned before,  but it would seem that
most of the  "is this operation okay?"  could be bypassed if the script
were signed electronically ... something that you could trust.   No?

        Personally,  I'm a fan of Tcl,  but I loathe exclusionism
(having been on the excluded end enough times).

--
Rick Troth <troth@ua1vm.ua.edu>, Houston, Texas, USA
http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~troth/
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On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Rick Troth wrote:
 
>         This may have been mentioned before,  but it would seem that
> most of the  "is this operation okay?"  could be bypassed if the script
> were signed electronically ... something that you could trust.   No?
 

Authentication is necessary but not sufficient.
( I trust my mother, but I still cut the cards! :-)
 
Recall that the Morris Internet Worm would have been benign and hardly 
noticed if it hadn't been for a bug in the code that caused it to 
replicate faster and use more resources than it was supposed to, thus
bringing a great many machines to their knees. 

So, for example, you might allow some classes of users/sources a less
restricted environment than others. ( For example: people trying out
a free demo, vs. fully paid up customers. ) but you would still not 
want their careless bugs to have some fatal effect. 

 For client-side-agents, privacy is probably the main concern. Even 
when you know the source, you want to ensure that their agents can 
do only what they are allowed to do. ( For example, perhaps you might
not want it collecting marketing information about you while it's 
doing some other visible operation that you actually requested. ) 

As Nathaniel has noted before - that doesn't require an interactive
user confirmantion if you set up the rules before hand. 

What I would propose is that, as in TeleScript, there be some sort of
negotiation over a "ticket" before a script is accepted. One of the things
that ticket could state is (roughly) what resources the script will 
require. ( Max CPU ticks, write access to temp or permanent files, 
read access to files, etc. as well as billing information ( "This agent
is not authorized to run up more than $10 in charges." ) and perhaps 
language, required standard-libraries or classes, etc. ). The 
"ticket" protocol is used to decide whether to accept the script. It's up to 
facilities in the "safe" language to ensure that the script keeps that contract. 

[ BTW: Does anyone know how CORBA handles authentication ? 
  Does it have any sort of "ticket" negotiation ? ] 


>         Personally,  I'm a fan of Tcl,  but I loathe exclusionism
> (having been on the excluded end enough times).
 
I certainly think we can cooperate on building an *architecture* before 
we start fighting about a language. ( And judgeing from past flame-wars,
once we start fighting about "The" language, it's going to get ugly. Also 
- to be honest - I think once we DO have a better idea of demands and
requirements, I suspect that we'll find that neither Tcl nor Python nor
Scheme ( certainly not, as they are currently ) are quite capable of 
what we want to do, and we'll take what we've learned from these 
experiments and design something from the ground up. Maybe it will be
a higher level virtual machine, and thus leave the syntax wars out 
of it. ) 

---|  Steven D. Majewski   (804-982-0831)  <sdm7g@Virginia.EDU>  |---
---|  Computer Systems Engineer          University of Virginia  |---
---|  Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics  |---
---|  Box 449 Health Science Center    Charlottesville,VA 22908  |---

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From: Pierre Parlinson <ppark@vanbc.wimsey.com>
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After saving an HTML page on my hard-drive, how do I strip
it of its embedded information to just read the information 
in a word processing package?

If possible, please indicate where I can get a hold of the software for 
this purpose.

Thanks in advance,

Pierre Parkinson

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From: Rick Troth <TROTH@ua1vm.ua.edu>
Subject:      Re: Client-side sripts
To: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>,
        Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
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> > 	OAK is nice.

        It's supposed to be a pun,  a quote from the movie  "Pulp Fiction",
but obviously we haven't all seen it.   (I haven't,  making that a poor
choice on my part;  sorry, all)

>Dan

--
Rick Troth <troth@ua1vm.ua.edu>, Houston, Texas, USA
http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~troth/
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 19:25:51 -0700
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org, www-html@www10.w3.org
From: narnett@verity.com (Nick Arnett)
Subject: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
Content-Length: 1982

As some know, we're being rather aggressive at Verity in developing Web
products that use our search and retrieval engine, the Topic Developer
Kernel (or Kit, if you prefer).  We've joined the W3C created various
relationships with browser and server companies and we're close to
releasing the 1.0 version of the Web search server that we've been showing
(and shipping in pre-release) for a few months.  I say all of this because
I've been a bit invisible lately as far as these lists are concerned.  Of
course, the lists themselves were invisible for a while...

A couple of times lately, I've brought up the notion that clients should
handle highlights (the terms that match a search query) better.  It's
rather inefficient to force the search server to proxy documents just so
that it can add highlights.  Worse, it takes the decision about *how* to
highlight (bold?  underline?  surround with asterisks?) out of the user's
hands (barring some sort of ugly protocol for telling the server).

We'd like to suggest a very simple approach -- a highlight tag.  This way,
our server could add the highlight tag in the appropriate places, but it
would be up to the browser (under the user's control, presumably) to decide
how to identify highlights in the text (turn them red, underline,
whatever).  An appropriate UI enhancement would be the addition of a "next
highlight" button or menu item and optionally a "previous highlight"
button.

However this is done, it should have an eye toward eventually allowing a
client to receive a URL and highlight information from the search server,
so that, armed with those two smidgens of data, it can fetch the document
and add the highlights all by itself.

I'd like to hear (1) suggestions on the form of this tag (we're assuming
something terribly simple such as <hl> and </hl>) and (2) objections or
concerns.

I'm cross-posting to www-talk and www-html;let's keep the markup-specific
discussion (which may be all of it) on -html.

Nick


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 95 22:08:14 CST
From: wa@mcc.com (Wayne Allen)
Message-Id: <9503100408.AA05540@coyote.mcc.com>
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: Nick Arnett's message of Thu, 9 Mar 1995 22:33:52 +0500 <ab8564ae04021004a16a@[192.187.143.12]>
Subject: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
Content-Length: 1752


Nick says...

   A couple of times lately, I've brought up the notion that clients should
   handle highlights (the terms that match a search query) better.  It's
   rather inefficient to force the search server to proxy documents just so
   that it can add highlights.  Worse, it takes the decision about *how* to
   highlight (bold?  underline?  surround with asterisks?) out of the user's
   hands (barring some sort of ugly protocol for telling the server).

   We'd like to suggest a very simple approach -- a highlight tag.  This way,
   our server could add the highlight tag in the appropriate places, but it
   would be up to the browser (under the user's control, presumably) to decide
   how to identify highlights in the text (turn them red, underline,
   whatever).  An appropriate UI enhancement would be the addition of a "next
   highlight" button or menu item and optionally a "previous highlight"
   button.

I agree with Nick that clients should be able to highlight search
results, but I suggest a simpler approach - when a server sends a
response to a search (and only the server *really* knows when this
is), it should send a keyword attribute in the HTML header, containing
the terms it thinks are relevant to the results (which may not be all
the terms specified.) Then the browser can (or not) implement a simple
way to find and highlight the terms.  Most (all?) browsers can already
search on text, so this is a very simple extension for them. It
relieves the server of having to muck with the actual HTML text it
sends, and uses existing mechanisms.

Cheers!
--
 wa | Wayne Allen, EINet - wa@einet.net
    | MCC/ISD, 3500 West Balcones Center Dr, Austin, Tx 78759
    | http://galaxy.einet.net/EINet/staff/wayne/wayne.html

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From: rdavis@masschaos.de.convex.com (via the vacation program)
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I am on vacation until Friday March 10th.  I might be able to
check email briefly, but don't count on it.  Please refer any
EMSE related issues to mpropper.

Thanks,
Ray
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From: las@potomac.wash.inmet.com (Lee Shombert)
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9503100408.AA05540@coyote.mcc.com> (wa@mcc.com)
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
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Wayne says...
> I agree with Nick that clients should be able to highlight search
> results, but I suggest a simpler approach - when a server sends a
> response to a search (and only the server *really* knows when this
> is), it should send a keyword attribute in the HTML header, containing
> the terms it thinks are relevant to the results (which may not be all
> the terms specified.) Then the browser can (or not) implement a simple
> way to find and highlight the terms.  Most (all?) browsers can already
> search on text, so this is a very simple extension for them. It
> relieves the server of having to muck with the actual HTML text it
> sends, and uses existing mechanisms.

Having the highlight tag actually seems simpler to me.  The search engine
(but not the http server) knows what constitutes a match as the search
results are being accumulated.  It is very easy for the search engine to
insert highlight tags at this point.  And it is a no-brainer for the browser
to handle the higlight tags.

If the client is to reconstruct the matching patterns by searching on text,
then the highlighting function is limited to searches that are simple text
matches.  For instance, simple clients probably would not support
highlighting when the seach criterion was "the document has a paragraph that
contains both the words 'test' and 'diagnostic'".  The client would likely
highlight all words 'test' and 'diagnostic', even if they did not appear in
the same paragraph.

Let the search engine report on its results with the highlight tag - this
allows any search algorithm to report on any useful information.  This also
means that simple clients will work with any search algorithm.
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From: Jim Davis <davis@dri.cornell.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <9503101248.AA02180@potomac.wash.inmet.com> (las@potomac.wash.inmet.com)
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
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I believe in the need for the function of this tag, (i.e. it makes
sense for search engines to show users what portions of a document
were relevant) but I am unconvinced that a new tag is the way to
do it.  

1) It's not clear to me what the meaning of this tag is.  One
definition might be "in a document returned by running a search, the
elements within the document that caused it to be selected".  Another
might be "the passages within a document that matched the search
criteria".  Both seem plausible and useful to me, but they are different.

Suppose I'm searching for a paragraphs with both "data" and "actor".
Under the first definition, only the words "data" and "actor" would be
highlighted.  Under the second, the whole paragraph would.  There are
probably other viable definitions.  What's more, I am not sure what
happens (in the first definition) if the search included a NOT.

2) It's not clear how this tag relates to other cases of marking
passages within documents as "special" in some way.  One example is
"strike out" text. [The HTML 2.0 spec (of July 94) has a STRIKE tag
for this purpose.]  Are there other examples?  Before adding another
special purpose semantic tag, it would be well to look for other cases
where such markup is needed, to make sure the design is clean.

3) A tag is not the only way to provide the function. 

First of all, why not just use existing tags such as B or EM?  Granted
this makes it hard to highlight something that's already bold, but
then again what's the client going to do in such a case anyway? (see
below).  Using B will provide the function immediately and universally
and will work in most cases.

Second, Lee Shombert claimed that there was no simple expression that
could be expressed in the header for client interpretation to indicate
which words, phrases, paragraphs or images should be highlighted.
He's right that simple schemes won't work (e.g. just listing "data"
and "actor" would fail because the client would not limit highlighting
to terms in the same para.) but more complicated schemes are possible
(e.g. a set of ranges as byte offsets into the marked up document.).
So a tag isn't *necessary* to provide

4) If the tag is adopted, then the content of the tag should be
allowed to be anything, including headers and images.  How the client
highlights text should not be specified.  Note that no single grapical
method will work, since one might wish to highlight boldfaced,
underlined, or even (ughhh) blinking material and also one might wish
to highlight imported image files.  Remember too that there are
visually impaired Web users.  We should not be adding more purely
visual tags.


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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:16:57 -0500
From: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
Message-Id: <199503101416.JAA07346@ebt-inc.ebt.com>
To: html-wg@oclc.org
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <ab8564ae04021004a16a@[192.187.143.12]> (narnett@verity.com)
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
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>We'd like to suggest a very simple approach -- a highlight tag.  This way,
>our server could add the highlight tag in the appropriate places, but it
>would be up to the browser (under the user's control, presumably) to decide
>how to identify highlights in the text (turn them red, underline,
>whatever).  An appropriate UI enhancement would be the addition of a "next
>highlight" button or menu item and optionally a "previous highlight"
>button.

I guess I am a strong proponent of "clean" SGML, but I must admit,
that having some way to mark highlights would be very
desireable. DynaWeb has fairly sophisticated searching capabilities
(cross collection, boolean, proximity, structure-based, etc.) and
I used the <B> tag for highlighting the hits.

This has 2 major problems:

1) If DynaWeb highlights something already in <B>, you can't see it.
2) Even in plain text, it can be hard to see.

One problem with the tag approach is that we face a problem when a hit
crosses element boundaries. This is not too much of a problem in
DynaWeb *now* because most of it's tagging in the SGML to HTML
conversion process is based on containers, but as HTML becomes more
complicated, and more structured, it will become easier and easier to
generate bad SGML.

Again, like the anchor that crosses element boundaries (that Dan
mentioned) we have a problems, and I do not think start/end tag pairs
solve the problem in an elegant manner. Some parts of the HyTime
spec might be better, or concepts from it anyway.

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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:21:51 -0500
From: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
Message-Id: <199503101421.JAA07448@ebt-inc.ebt.com>
To: html-wg@oclg.org
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Pointer to DynaWeb
Content-Length: 65

For those interested in looking at DynaWeb.

http://www.ebt.com/
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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:21:43 +0500
From: billo@grinch.hq.ileaf.com (Bill O'Donnell x3378)
Message-Id: <9503101421.AA27904@grinch.HQ.Ileaf.COM>
To: wa@mcc.com
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
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   Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 23:17:30 +0500
   Originator: www-talk@mail.w3.org
   From: wa@mcc.com (Wayne Allen)
   X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
   X-Comment: To sign off, send mail to listproc@mail.w3.org with body DEL WWW-TALK


   Nick says...

      A couple of times lately, I've brought up the notion that clients should
      handle highlights (the terms that match a search query) better.  It's
      rather inefficient to force the search server to proxy documents just so
      that it can add highlights.  Worse, it takes the decision about *how* to
      highlight (bold?  underline?  surround with asterisks?) out of the user's
      hands (barring some sort of ugly protocol for telling the server).

      We'd like to suggest a very simple approach -- a highlight tag.  This way,
      our server could add the highlight tag in the appropriate places, but it
      would be up to the browser (under the user's control, presumably) to decide
      how to identify highlights in the text (turn them red, underline,
      whatever).  An appropriate UI enhancement would be the addition of a "next
      highlight" button or menu item and optionally a "previous highlight"
      button.

   I agree with Nick that clients should be able to highlight search
   results, but I suggest a simpler approach - when a server sends a
   response to a search (and only the server *really* knows when this
   is), it should send a keyword attribute in the HTML header, containing
   the terms it thinks are relevant to the results (which may not be all
   the terms specified.) Then the browser can (or not) implement a simple
   way to find and highlight the terms.  Most (all?) browsers can already
   search on text, so this is a very simple extension for them. It
   relieves the server of having to muck with the actual HTML text it
   sends, and uses existing mechanisms.

   Cheers!
   --
    wa | Wayne Allen, EINet - wa@einet.net
       | MCC/ISD, 3500 West Balcones Center Dr, Austin, Tx 78759
       | http://galaxy.einet.net/EINet/staff/wayne/wayne.html


I'm not entirely clear on what Nick is suggesting, so I'll give my
interpretation.  Reading the first
paragraph, cited above, it looks like he's suggesting that the server
mark up the documents with a highlight tag.  But later in his original
message, he suggests that the browser gets two pieces of information:
a URL and a set of highlight tags, from which it can derive
highlights.  This implies that his suggestion really is the same as
what Wayne outlines above. 

Given what (little) I know about Verity Topics, these highlight tags,
whether in an HTML header as Wayne suggests, or in a separate "query
result" document that Nick might be suggesting (if my understanding is
correct), would contain more than just the words to be highlighted.
They would also contains hints about where to locate the words in
the HTML documents, which in the case of VTK would be a word count.
Since the search engine has already done the work of locating words,
we might as well give the browser the opportunity to leverage that
work. 

I'd like to see a proposal/discussion of some standard locator hints
that different search engines might provide.  VTK might provide word
count, for example, where Fulcrum might provide character count
perhaps?  In any case, the search engine would provide whatever info
it can in some standard way, and browsers could use that to their
advantage. 

Something like:

<hl href=URL wordloc=WORDCOUNT charloc=CHARCOUNT>
This is the phrase found
</hl>
<hl href=URL2 wordloc=WORDCOUNT2 charloc=CHARCOUNT2>
This is another phrase found
</hl>

I don't even care if this is done through an HTML tag or not, as long
as there is some convention that browsers can use.

Bill O'Donnell                Prospect  Place
Interleaf Inc                 9 Hillside Ave
billo@ileaf.com               Waltham, MA 02154
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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:28:51 -0600
From: John Franks <john@math.nwu.edu>
Message-Id: <199503101528.JAA03585@hopf.math.nwu.edu>
To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch
Reply-To: john@math.nwu.edu
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
Content-Length: 1269


A feature quite similar to what is being discussed here has been
available for some time in the WN server.  Matching items from full
text searches are enclosed in named anchors.  This has the effect of
highlighting them, but also allows the browser to bring up the
document with positioned at the match.  Thus the response to the
search is a list of documents with sublists of lines containing a
match with the search term highlighted.  Selecting the highlighted
term takes you to the relevant document postioned at the match.
Selecting the highlighted search term in the document takes you to
the beginning of the document.

You can try this with a demo which searches the 39 files of the 
HTML 2.0 specification at

     <URL:http://hopf.math.nwu.edu/html2.0/dosearch.html>

By the way, tagging a search term match is not a simple matter
in HTML.  Very often the match is in an anchor which does not allow
an additional tag.  And simply deciding whether or not a match is
in an anchor requires parsing the whole document in principal (but
a few neighboring lines seems to work fine in practice).  Then there
is the question of what to do if the match is in a place which 
allows no tag.


-- 

John Franks 	Dept of Math. Northwestern University
		john@math.nwu.edu

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To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 1995 23:11:46 MST."
             <9503100408.AA05540@coyote.mcc.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:29:48 -0700
From: Dave Hollander <dmh@hpsgml.fc.hp.com>
Content-Length: 1585


Wayne says:

> I agree with Nick that clients should be able to highlight search
> results, but I suggest a simpler approach - when a server sends a
> response to a search (and only the server *really* knows when this
> is), it should send a keyword attribute in the HTML header, containing
> the terms it thinks are relevant to the results (which may not be all
> the terms specified.) 

While the html header would be ok, this restricts the usage to the server.
Placing this info in the URL as proposed earlier would allow non-server
applications and HTML documents to trigger highlighting. For example,
if I wanted to point to "HTML header" in my archive of this I could
use --http://me.hp.com/www-talk/doc8#HTML header-- or some similar 
syntax.


> Then the browser can (or not) implement a simple
> way to find and highlight the terms.  Most (all?) browsers can already
> search on text, so this is a very simple extension for them. It
> relieves the server of having to muck with the actual HTML text it
> sends, and uses existing mechanisms.
> 

This proposal still leaves the burden on the client vendors. What do 
they think?

Regards,
Dave Hollander


_________________________________________________________________________
 Dave Hollander                          Hewlett-Packard
 Internet Technology Program Manager     3404 East Harmony Road, MS. 6U10
 Electronic Sales Promotion         	 Fort Collins, Colorado  80525
 dmh@corp.hp.com         		 303-229-3192 
 Access HP - http://www.hp.com
_________________________________________________________________________

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From: Rob Hartill <hartill@ooo.lanl.gov>
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Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 9:35:12 MST
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Just to revive an idea I put into www-talk a month or three ago,

Can we please have the client parse the URL for highlight
instructions. www-talk discussed it and came up with

  http://site.name/some/path#find=look,seek

where the client whould (for compatibility) first look for
an anchor with the name "find=look,seek" - then after failing
to find it, it would highlight "look" and/or "seek".

This simple solution to highlighting can be more useful than
having servers pass extra headers, since it requires no
action on the server-side, so I can create a link to someone
else's document and ask for highlights, or the server can
generate links in this format to point to search results.


rob
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org, billo@grinch.hq.ileaf.com
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
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> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 11:26:56 +0500
> From: billo@grinch.hq.ileaf.com (Bill O'Donnell x3378)

> 
> Given what (little) I know about Verity Topics, these highlight tags,
> whether in an HTML header as Wayne suggests, or in a separate "query
> result" document that Nick might be suggesting (if my understanding is
> correct), would contain more than just the words to be highlighted.
> They would also contains hints about where to locate the words in
> the HTML documents, which in the case of VTK would be a word count.
> Since the search engine has already done the work of locating words,
> we might as well give the browser the opportunity to leverage that
> work. 
> 
> I'd like to see a proposal/discussion of some standard locator hints
> that different search engines might provide.  VTK might provide word
> count, for example, where Fulcrum might provide character count
> perhaps?  In any case, the search engine would provide whatever info
> it can in some standard way, and browsers could use that to their
> advantage. 
> 
> Something like:
> 
> <hl href=URL wordloc=WORDCOUNT charloc=CHARCOUNT>
> This is the phrase found
> </hl>
> <hl href=URL2 wordloc=WORDCOUNT2 charloc=CHARCOUNT2>
> This is another phrase found
> </hl>
> 
> I don't even care if this is done through an HTML tag or not, as long
> as there is some convention that browsers can use.

I would be very uncomfortable with the integrity of extrenal 
addresses suggested by the attributes in the reference link.
At least with a fragment-id there is a loose contract between 
generated (e.g. original document annotated with highlighting and
temporal search result navigation anchors) and the presentation
of a result list (e.g. temporal query result page).

An interesting side effect of your suggested syntax, is that a
result list could describe regions to be highlighted in plain text, 
postscript, or "externally stored in a database" document.

<hl href="sql://db/select%20from%20employees%20lastname%20;
     row=1 col=1> Henderson </hl>

<hl href="foo.ps" page=3 x=10 y=20 w=100 h=12>... </hl>


Yes, I have an adopted greyhound and her name is Pandora :-)
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In-Reply-To: <199503101416.JAA07346@ebt-inc.ebt.com> (message from Gavin Nicol on Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:48:54 +0500)
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
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> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:48:54 +0500
> From: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
> 
> >We'd like to suggest a very simple approach -- a highlight tag.  This way,
> >our server could add the highlight tag in the appropriate places, but it
> >would be up to the browser (under the user's control, presumably) to decide
> >how to identify highlights in the text (turn them red, underline,
> >whatever).  An appropriate UI enhancement would be the addition of a "next
> >highlight" button or menu item and optionally a "previous highlight"
> >button.
> 
> I guess I am a strong proponent of "clean" SGML, but I must admit,
> that having some way to mark highlights would be very
> desireable. DynaWeb has fairly sophisticated searching capabilities
> (cross collection, boolean, proximity, structure-based, etc.) and
> I used the <B> tag for highlighting the hits.
> 
> This has 2 major problems:
> 
> 1) If DynaWeb highlights something already in <B>, you can't see it.
> 2) Even in plain text, it can be hard to see.
> 
> One problem with the tag approach is that we face a problem when a hit
> crosses element boundaries. This is not too much of a problem in
> DynaWeb *now* because most of it's tagging in the SGML to HTML
> conversion process is based on containers, but as HTML becomes more
> complicated, and more structured, it will become easier and easier to
> generate bad SGML.
> 
> Again, like the anchor that crosses element boundaries (that Dan
> mentioned) we have a problems, and I do not think start/end tag pairs
> solve the problem in an elegant manner. Some parts of the HyTime
> spec might be better, or concepts from it anyway.
> 

Another minor problem that I see with the tag approach to highlighting
is the possibility of the same URL being associated with 2 or more different
htmls contents.  

That is, your search engine asks for content with word X returns the url of
html page A which contains page A with all the X's surrounded by the highlight
tag.  Then, another search request for content with word Y happens to return
page A (coincidentally contains Y too), but here with all the Y's tagged.
Same URL, different associated HTML.  This creates problems for profiling,
expiration, other visited-page management facilities.

Of course, the construction of the URL being returned all depends on how you 
write your gateway... 

An implementation of highlighting using URL extensions would not create this
ambiguity.

							Gina Faber
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Join and leaving lists
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Hi:

Could somebody please post the process required to subscribe and
unsubscribe for the various www lists.

I'm trying to switch my subscription from one userid to another.
I've tried using "Add list-name" to subscribe my "weblists" userid
but I have not received any acceptance notification or e-mails.

I would really like to remove the web-lists from my personal account.


Also, are the discussions on this list available on the web
anywhere?

thanks in advance!

______________________________________________________________________________
Shawn J Smolsky				       Voice: (609)338-4568
Martin Marietta Corporation      	       Mar Call: 8*794-4568
Engineering Support Center                     FAX:   (609)338-2967 or 2966
1 Federal Street, A&E-2SW		       Email:smolsky@esc.camden.mmc.com	
Camden, NJ 08102
______________________________________________________________________________

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From: wa@mcc.com (Wayne Allen)
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: [john@math.nwu.edu: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal]
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I'm glad to see this discussion.  With respect to marking-up HTML on
the server side, we here have indexes of documents which reside
elsewhere.  The search engine can provide a keyword hit list, and in
some cases, the (purported) character positions for these words, but
cannot do any markup becuase the result document would be retieved
from another server.  (I'm not clear on whether character offsets
would do browsers much good.)

I suppose the browser could pass on the hit list it recieved from the
search, and the target document's server could do the markup. However,
I'm leary of a solution which requires the complexity of auto tag
insertion.

In any case, I'd like to see a solution which does not require the
search engine have access to the actual document at search time, and
does not require the search engine or indexer to parse HTML.  Oh, and
throw in the moon, while you're at it!

Cheers!
--
 wa | Wayne Allen, EINet - wa@einet.net
    | MCC/ISD, 3500 West Balcones Center Dr, Austin, Tx 78759
    | http://galaxy.einet.net/EINet/staff/wayne/wayne.html
    | "Pink tender morsel,
    |  Glistening with salty gel.
    |  What the hell is it?"  - Spam Haiku

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Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 08:09:43 +0500
From: gra@labboot.east.sun.com (Gary Adams - Sun Microsystems Labs BOS)
Message-Id: <9503101309.AA10560@labboot.East.Sun.COM>
To: wa@mcc.com, www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
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> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 23:12:27 +0500
> From: wa@mcc.com (Wayne Allen)
> 
> 
> Nick says...
> 
>    A couple of times lately, I've brought up the notion that clients should
>    handle highlights (the terms that match a search query) better.  It's
>    rather inefficient to force the search server to proxy documents just so
>    that it can add highlights.  Worse, it takes the decision about *how* to
>    highlight (bold?  underline?  surround with asterisks?) out of the user's
>    hands (barring some sort of ugly protocol for telling the server).

A quick survey of current search engines that are intgrated with the 
web involve overloaded use of <STRONG> or <EM> tags for highlighting 
purposes. In many cases where HTML pages were indexed and retrieved
proper consideration for existing markup have not been handled
correctly. e.g <A HREF="/image/<STRONG>foo.gif</STRONG>">

The only problem I see with using a new tag for the expressed purpose
of search engine highlighting is that it may not be sufficiently
generalized enough as a general HTML markup and that it could creep
into manually generated documents. Is an authored <STRONG> different
than a script generated <EM>?

I believe we will see several active content document schemes deployed
in calendar year 1995 that will make it possible to have much more 
dynamic client side behavior for searching and filtering operations.
e.g. Whenever I see a hint of "terrorism", render the paragraph in 
red and sound a siren.

> 
>    We'd like to suggest a very simple approach -- a highlight tag.  This way,
>    our server could add the highlight tag in the appropriate places, but it
>    would be up to the browser (under the user's control, presumably) to decide
>    how to identify highlights in the text (turn them red, underline,
>    whatever).  An appropriate UI enhancement would be the addition of a "next
>    highlight" button or menu item and optionally a "previous highlight"
>    button.

The forward and backward navigation could be left to PATHs at a
finer granularity that proposed earlier. Each location would need to
be named and the browser navigation would logically look something
like :
	<A HREF="#prev1">^</A>
	<A NAME="hit2"><STRONG>terrorism<STRONG></A>
	<A HREF="#next3">V</A>

This could also lead to result list navigation along the
same lines as subdocument paths.

	<A HREF="nextdoc2#nexthit4"> ...

The problem with adding this capability to the browsers, is that
there are many times that I would like to navigate over other 
types of markup as well as search hits. Could my "PageDown"
key be mapped to "Advance to the next H1 tag"? Perhaps the browser
includes support for client side searching which would let me
see a list  of <H*> tags and let me select from the local result 
list. 

> 
> I agree with Nick that clients should be able to highlight search
> results, but I suggest a simpler approach - when a server sends a
> response to a search (and only the server *really* knows when this
> is), it should send a keyword attribute in the HTML header, containing
> the terms it thinks are relevant to the results (which may not be all
> the terms specified.) Then the browser can (or not) implement a simple
> way to find and highlight the terms.  Most (all?) browsers can already
> search on text, so this is a very simple extension for them. It
> relieves the server of having to muck with the actual HTML text it
> sends, and uses existing mechanisms.

One of the problems with KeyWords In Context (KWIC) systems is the
limited expressiveness of results and the narrow field of recall.
I prefer the approach of the search engine specifying the region
for highlighting over a local mechanism the browser uses for
highlighting terms blindly. I want to see whole sentences selected
by the search engine that actually fulfill my information need.
e.g. "How do I print a file?" returns "<EM>A document can be sent to 
the laserwriter using the save dialog</EM>".

I have high hopes for the kinds of applications that will be enabled
with the advent of active client side content. A TABLE will be
an ideal means of expressing search result lists. An active table 
could easily sort the results my selecting one of the column headings.
Sort by name or date for fancy directory listings. These are all examples 
of safe interactions that are limited to user interactions and manipulation
of the current document contents.
> 
______________________________________________________________________
Gary R. Adams				Email: Gary.Adams@East.Sun.COM
Sun Microsystems Laboratories   	Tel: (508) 442-0416
Two Elizabeth Drive			Fax: (508) 250-5067
Chelmsford MA 01824-4195 USA		(Sun mail stop: UCHL03-207)
SWAN URL:				http://labboot.East/~gra/
______________________________________________________________________
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To: wa@mcc.com, www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Re: [john@math.nwu.edu: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal] 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 95 17:52:15 +0500."
             <9503101939.AA08847@coyote.mcc.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 16:30:54 -0800
From: Thomas Maslen <tmaslen@verity.com>
Content-Length: 2284

[ I've only been following the www-talk part of this.  Is there a separate
  branch that I'm missing on www-html?  Also, is there _anything_ good about
  this listprocessor? ]

Nick Arnett wrote:

> However this is done, it should have an eye toward eventually allowing a
> client to receive a URL and highlight information from the search server,
> so that, armed with those two smidgens of data, it can fetch the document
> and add the highlights all by itself.

... and I'll concentrate on the "eventually" part here.

Wayne Allen wrote:

> In any case, I'd like to see a solution which does not require the
> search engine have access to the actual document at search time, and
> does not require the search engine or indexer to parse HTML.

I agree.  

Because of this, and also because I'd like to keep a clear distinction 
between {the base document} and {annotations to the base document (e.g. 
highlighting for search results)}, I'd prefer a solution that doesn't 
involve embedding <highlight>...</highlight> throughout the document.

Wayne's previous message described an approach that went some way toward
this -- putting the info in an attribute up in <HEAD> rather than 
throughout the <BODY> -- but I'd like to go further and have the highlight
annotations completely separate from the base document.

The client-side highlighting issue did the rounds previously on www-talk
(January?  Before the list died and was resurrected, anyway).  At the time,
I was keen to add a MIME compound type that'd contain (a) either an URL
to the base document or an inline copy of it, and (b) annotations to be
applied to that document.  Rob Hartill had cogent arguments for doing it
another way, adding the required information to URLs (as Dave Hollander
mentioned this time around).  The info in the URLs might be a lot like
some of the (server-side) URL syntax that the WN server supports.

I'm still rather fond of the MIME type rather than info in URLs, but
either approach should satisfy my main criterion (getting the annotation
information out of the base document).  

Also, either approach should be able to handle the requirement that Bill 
O'Donnell pointed out:  multiple representations of highlight information, 
rather than just a word-list.

Thomas
tmaslen@verity.com
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From: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
Message-Id: <199503110856.DAA07586@ebt-inc.ebt.com>
To: davis@dri.cornell.edu
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <199503101402.AA13595@pine.tc.cornell.edu> (message from Jim Davis on Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:08:09 +0500)
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
Content-Length: 1042

>Second, Lee Shombert claimed that there was no simple expression that
>could be expressed in the header for client interpretation to indicate
>which words, phrases, paragraphs or images should be highlighted.
>He's right that simple schemes won't work (e.g. just listing "data"
>and "actor" would fail because the client would not limit highlighting
>to terms in the same para.) but more complicated schemes are possible
>(e.g. a set of ranges as byte offsets into the marked up document.).

Byte offsets will not work due to 

1) Tags (does byte offset include them or not)
2) Whitespace (for which SGML has lovely parsing rules ;-))

The functionality is needed very much. Perhaps we could have something
like:

<MARK TYPE=HIGHLIGHT START=123 END=333>

Where TYPE would indicate the role, and START and END represent word
offsets in the document, though this might well be more complicated
to handle than paired tags (though safer in terms of content model).

Ideas? The above does not feel good to me, and neither do PI's or
paired tags.
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From: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
Message-Id: <199503111306.IAA11131@ebt-inc.ebt.com>
To: gfaber@teknowledge.com
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9503101806.AA09838@Teknowledge.COM> (gfaber@Teknowledge.COM)
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
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>That is, your search engine asks for content with word X returns the url of
>html page A which contains page A with all the X's surrounded by the highlight
>tag.  Then, another search request for content with word Y happens to return
>page A (coincidentally contains Y too), but here with all the Y's tagged.
>Same URL, different associated HTML.  This creates problems for profiling,
>expiration, other visited-page management facilities.
 
DynaWeb suffers from this, and in addition, it has named stylesheets
and whatnot, so there can be quite a large number of HTML "pages"
associated with any addressed element in the SGML document being
accessed. In addition, the auto-generated TOC's might be interesting
for Spiders...

>Of course, the construction of the URL being returned all depends on
>how you write your gateway...

True enough. DynaWeb has 3 subdocument addressing modes (read: URL
formats), and uses the ?foo=bar construct extensively... 

I should note that DynaWeb is a native HTTP server.
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From: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
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To: wa@mcc.com
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <9503101939.AA08847@coyote.mcc.com> (wa@mcc.com)
Subject: Re: [john@math.nwu.edu: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal]
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>I'm glad to see this discussion.  With respect to marking-up HTML on
>the server side, we here have indexes of documents which reside
>elsewhere.  The search engine can provide a keyword hit list, and in
>some cases, the (purported) character positions for these words, but

So there is a possibility for you server to be inaccurate in both hit
occurence and position?

>In any case, I'd like to see a solution which does not require the
>search engine have access to the actual document at search time, and
>does not require the search engine or indexer to parse HTML.  Oh, and
>throw in the moon, while you're at it!

Quite! Perhaps what we really need a low-bandwidth, graphical
rendering standard. Then we can simply render the document as we see
fit, and we get greater protection for content into the bargain
(people would have to reassemble a document from the rendering stream
to be able to steal it) ;-)

Seriously though, there are problems to be solved, and I cannot see a
truly universal solution being possible without major surgery.

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send mailing lists.
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Cc: rs@sun09.humb.nt.com
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 1995 20:47:40 +0500."
             <9503101309.AA10560@labboot.East.Sun.COM> 
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Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 10:56:24 -0500
From: Rick Silterra <rs@sun09.cci.com>
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With respect to all these proposals for client side
highlighting;
If we could solve this, I think we would also have a solution for
non-embedded hyperlinks, which are also a solution for shared/group
annotation.
We seem to be saying:
"I need to apply markup to this document dynamically based on results of
some operation", in this case search, in other cases, annotation.
So, I do not have a solution, just the comment that a solution would
be useful in other contexts.
Rick Silterra
rs@cci.com

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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: New IETF Draft 00 of HTTP/1.0
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 22:57:29 -0800
From: "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@avron.ics.uci.edu>
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A revised draft of the HTTP/1.0 specification is now available from

    http://www.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/http/
     ftp://www.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/http/
and 
    http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Protocols/Overview.html

and will eventually be available at an IETF shadow directory near you called
    draft-ietf-http-v10-spec-00.{txt,ps}
You can tell if you have the right draft by looking in the upper-left
corner of the first page for the filename.

It includes all of the requested changes from prior drafts and is
almost complete (only missing a description of URI and a couple
appendices.

No diffs are providided, since almost all lines have changed.
This would be a good time to read it very carefully and send comments
to <http-wg@cuckoo.hpl.hp.com>.

Happy reading,

.......Roy Fielding   ICS Grad Student, University of California, Irvine  USA
                                     <fielding@ics.uci.edu>
                     <URL:http://www.ics.uci.edu/dir/grad/Software/fielding>
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In-Reply-To: Gary Adams - Sun Microsystems Labs BOS's message of Fri, 10 Mar 1995 07:49:04 -0800 <9503101309.AA10560@labboot.East.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
From: Larry Masinter <masinter@parc.xerox.com>
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Would it be out of line to suggest <strong role="highlight">, and
<strong role="emphasis"> where nested strongs with different roles
would be doubly highlighted?
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From: PeterMeg@aol.com
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Subject: www front page
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I am trying to figure out how to download a mosaic program so that i may view
the www.  I have AOL & Compuserve. Can you provide me any assistance. Thank
you. I look forward to your reply :-)
eturn-Path: borrel@abdallah.hiof.no 
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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 20:32:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Borre Ludvigsen <borrel@hiof.no>
Subject: linkchecker for next?
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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Does anyone have a compiled linkchecker for Next (black hardware)?

- Barre

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   Barre Ludvigsen - Ostfold Regional College- N-1750 HALDEN - Norway
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To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal 
References: <199503110856.DAA07586@ebt-inc.ebt.com>  
In-Reply-To: <199503110856.DAA07586@ebt-inc.ebt.com> 
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 16:06:29 -0800
From: Joe English <jenglish@crl.com>
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Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com> wrote:

> The functionality is needed very much. Perhaps we could have something
> like:
> 
> <MARK TYPE=HIGHLIGHT START=123 END=333>
> 
> Where TYPE would indicate the role, and START and END represent word
> offsets in the document, though this might well be more complicated
> to handle than paired tags (though safer in terms of content model).

That is exactly what's in the latest HTML 3 draft,
(except TYPE is named CLASS).  START is an ID attribute,
and END is an IDREF.   MARK elements must occur in pairs.

> Ideas? The above does not feel good to me, and neither do PI's or
> paired tags.

What does not feel good about it?  I think it's a very
good approach.

--Joe English

  jenglish@crl.com
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WWW <LISTREFS>
RETURN
QUIT
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 07:27:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb@nsb.fv.com>
To: "Steven D. Majewski" <sdm7g@virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: agents [was: Client-Side Scripts & Web Scripting languages ... very long!]
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I think we're now in violent agreement on most things.

Excerpts from mail: 9-Mar-95 Re: agents [was: Client-Sid.. "Steven D.
Majewski"@vir (3961*)

> ( Safe-Tcl + standard high level set of services/libraries *may* be 
>  high level enough - or we may have to cycle thru another generation
>  of experiments to get it right. )

I predict that Safe-Tcl + a standard high level set of
services/libraries will in fact prove high level enough -- possibly with
a few tweaks/enhancements along the way -- but that there will STILL be
at least one more generation after that, for the standardization stage. 
-- Nathaniel
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 18:41:57 +0530 (IST)
From: Rupesh Kapoor <rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in>
Subject: Loading .gz files thru netscape
To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
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Hi all,
	I would like netscape to execute a command as defined in .mailcap 
file when a file http://host/somewhere/file.gz is loaded. It works 
perfectly for .ps, .gif and other extensions. Infact, i discovered that 
netscape doesn't read .mime.types at all! If I change the MIME type of ps 
from application/postscript to application/abcd, it still implements the 
original command.
	Could someone please suggest a way of viewing .gz|.Z files to begin 
with? I'm prepared to use an external viewer like gzcat %s | xless

Thanxall
Rupesh

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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 11:32:39 EST
From: flavio@dimap.ufrn.br (Flavio Marcelo C B do Amaral(bolsista))
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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Hello all

	I' a student at ufrn  and my final graduate work is about www. I need information about how it storages data and how its data structure is. I have to write my paper in html and i have to explain how it works( how the links are made, etc). So if someone can help me, please answer me.

	Thanx

----------------------------------
Flavio Marcelo C. B. do Amaral  /
flavio@dimap.ufrn.br            \
----------------------------------
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Item Subject: Message text
> .I am trying to figure out how to download a mosaic program so that i may
view
> .the www.  I have AOL & Compuserve. Can you provide me any assistance. Thank
> .you. I look forward to your reply :-)
> .

AOL and Compuserve should be coming out with their own W3 viewers soon. 
Contact your online support for more info.  

Trav  ?:^)
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From: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
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To: jenglish@crl.com
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <199503130005.AA04113@mail.crl.com> (message from Joe English on Sun, 12 Mar 1995 19:20:40 +0500)
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
Content-Length: 1326

>> <MARK TYPE=HIGHLIGHT START=123 END=333>
>>
>That is exactly what's in the latest HTML 3 draft,
>(except TYPE is named CLASS).  START is an ID attribute,
>and END is an IDREF.   MARK elements must occur in pairs.

>> Ideas? The above does not feel good to me, and neither do PI's or
>> paired tags.
> 
>What does not feel good about it?  I think it's a very
>good approach.

Paired elements like the above mean that you have to maintain more
state when you are rendering a document (ie. you have to traverse the
entire document tree preceeding the current element, whereas with
container based control, you only need to traverse the ancestors
leading up to a node). The reason I don't like word offsets of for
much the same reason. 

This is not much of a problem with small documents, but for optimising
the redisplay of large documents, it is a very important issue. This
could also be important for optimising redisplay when scrolling.

One fellow mentioned that we need a way to solve both the
highlighting, and the annotation problem. I think using parts from
HyTime Location Module, or at least concepts from it, combined with a
multipart MIME message might be the best way to go (and it's
applicable to other media types!!!). One way or another, specifying,
and implementing, such functionality will cause some pain.
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To: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org, www-html@www.w3.org
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal 
References: <199503131645.LAA07715@ebt-inc.ebt.com>  
In-Reply-To: <199503131645.LAA07715@ebt-inc.ebt.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:40:36 -0800
From: Joe English <jenglish@crl.com>
Content-Length: 1905


[ I'm forwarding this from www-talk to www-html ]

[ Re: the HTML 3 <MARK> element ]

> >What does not feel good about it?  I think it's a very
> >good approach.
> 
> Paired elements like the above mean that you have to maintain more
> state when you are rendering a document (ie. you have to traverse the
> entire document tree preceeding the current element, whereas with
> container based control, you only need to traverse the ancestors
> leading up to a node).

But there is no requirement for a browser to treat
marked ranges specially at all.  If a WWW user agent
*does* implement highlighting of marked ranges that cross
element boundaries, it will need to keep track of extra
state somehow anyway, regardless of how the range is
specified.

Plus, it is possible to implement this sort of thing
efficiently; see the Tk text widget for example.

> One fellow mentioned that we need a way to solve both the
> highlighting, and the annotation problem. I think using parts from
> HyTime Location Module, or at least concepts from it, combined with a
> multipart MIME message might be the best way to go (and it's
> applicable to other media types!!!). One way or another, specifying,
> and implementing, such functionality will cause some pain.

HyTime -- or any mechanism that uses external links into
a document -- will only work if the server and browser 
parse the document *identically*.  If the WWW were a true
SGML application and browsers used real SGML parsers, this
would only mean that both ends would have to use the
same DTD.  That's not the case, though.

There's no telling what existing browsers do with record ends,
for example, but it's very unlikely that any are ISO 8879 compliant.
A HyTime link to the 20th through 35th characters of 
the 4th child of the element with id "FOO" can't possibly
work when browsers don't even count the same way.


--Joe English

  jenglish@crl.com
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:03:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Hausgaard <eric@unix2.nysed.gov>
To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www19.w3.org>
Subject: Server Analysis
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WWW-TALK,
  Where can I find a good Web Server Analysis tool? Either to be viewed 
through HTML pages or a perl script.

thanx

Eric

                        <place really neat saying here>  
 ============================================================================
   My Opinions Change Every Half Hour  | Eric Hausgaard: Internet Specialist 
 Flames/E-mail to eric@unix2.nysed.gov | Pope of the Church of Dilbertology
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To: ppark@vanbc.wimsey.com,
        Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
From: farellc@io.org (Cecilia Farell)
Subject: Re: Reading HTML offline
Content-Length: 1593

At 05:04 PM 3/9/95 +0500, Pierre Parlinson wrote:
>After saving an HTML page on my hard-drive, how do I strip
>it of its embedded information to just read the information 
>in a word processing package?
>
>If possible, please indicate where I can get a hold of the software for 
>this purpose.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Pierre Parkinson
>
>

I do my HTML authoring under Windows so I'm only aware of a Windows editor
that does this. It's HTML Writer (donationware). To get info on where to get
it (although it should be available in a number of anonymous ftp sites),
check out its home page at <http://wwf.et.byu.edu/~nosackk/htmlwrit.html>.

Under the HTML menu, there is a Remove Codes option that strips code from
selected text. However, it does not remove special and escaped characters
(i.e., &quot;, etc.). You have to remove these by hand.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Cecilia Farell

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                *                                          *           
           ^ ^  ^  ^^^  ^^^  ^^^  ^^^    ^   ^   ^^^  ^^^  ^   ^
           ^^^  ^  ^ ^  ^ ^  ^^   ^ ^   ^ ^ ^ ^  ^^   ^  ^ ^  ^^^
           ^ ^  ^  ^    ^    ^^^  ^  ^ ^       ^ ^^^  ^^^  ^ ^   ^

     Web Page Development * WWW and Internet Consulting * Windows Help

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             Cecilia Farell * Toronto, Canada * farellc@io.org          
   <a href="http://www.io.org/hippermedia">Hippermedia</a>  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: connolly@w3.org (Dan Connolly)
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To: Ted_MacDonald@mbnet.mb.ca
Cc: timbl@w3.org, kmm@w3.org, secret@w3.org
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Ted MacDonald writes:
 > 	Hello Europe!

Hello Ted! We're not all in Europe any more. Some of us have moved
(or are about to move) to the Boston area. This has resulted in
quite a bit of confusion, and some lack of responsiveness to
administrative requests on the www-* mailing lists.

I might mention that we had some help creating this chaos: some
crackers compromised some systems at CERN and/or MIT during the moving
period. Have you ever heard the term "denial of service attack"?
Well, you're now experiencing it first-hand.

 >  Would someone over there *please* do something to 
 > get those of us no longer interested in this list OFF of it!!

Absolutely. We're doing our best to service the administrative requests:
by hand if necessary, but as much as possible by machine. We're investigating
better list handling software, and we're trying to hire a full-time
adminstrator[1].

 >  I'm sick 
 > of deleting 15+ meesages a day from this list!  Wake up over there!

Ahem. Take it easy on us! We're all doing our best.

We'd appreciate a more detailed problem report. Please give us:

1. a description of the desired behaviour (e.g. I wanted to get off
the list)

2. a description of the steps you took. e.g. Last tuesday at around 8pm, 
I sent a message to www-talk-request@w3.org with:
	unsubscribe Ted MacDonald
in the body

3. a description of the actual behavior (as opposed to the desired
behaviour) e.g. "Nothing happened, and I keep getting these messages"

If you have any more trouble, contact me personally <connolly@w3.org>
and I'll get it resolved in a timely manner.

Dan

p.s. Aurthur: would you delete Mr. MacDonald from the www-html
subscriber list, with a bazooka if necessary?

p.p.s. Everybody send mail to Aurthur <secret@w3.org> and thank him
for maintaing these lists for the last few years!

[1] http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Consortium/Recruitment/95-0136-I.html
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From: Anu Garg <agarg@alpha.ces.cwru.edu>
Message-Id: <199503140226.VAA02508@cerberos.CES.CWRU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Reading HTML offline
To: farellc@io.org
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 21:26:46 EST
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <199503132108.QAA03708@io.org>; from "Cecilia Farell" at Mar 13, 95 4:51 pm
Reply-To: agarg@ces.cwru.edu
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Why not let your browser do the dirty work. Most browsers support 
"plain text" or "formatted text" choices in "save as" menu option.

> At 05:04 PM 3/9/95 +0500, Pierre Parlinson wrote:
> >After saving an HTML page on my hard-drive, how do I strip
> >it of its embedded information to just read the information 
> >in a word processing package?
> >
> >If possible, please indicate where I can get a hold of the software for 
> >this purpose.
> >
> >Thanks in advance,
> >
> >Pierre Parkinson
> >
> 
> I do my HTML authoring under Windows so I'm only aware of a Windows editor
> that does this. It's HTML Writer (donationware). To get info on where to get
> it (although it should be available in a number of anonymous ftp sites),
> check out its home page at <http://wwf.et.byu.edu/~nosackk/htmlwrit.html>.
> 
> Under the HTML menu, there is a Remove Codes option that strips code from
> selected text. However, it does not remove special and escaped characters
> (i.e., &quot;, etc.). You have to remove these by hand.
> 
> I hope this helps.

-- 
Anu Garg
agarg@ces.cwru.edu  anu@wordsmith.org  http://www.wordsmith.org/~anu/anu.html
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From: frystyk@www5.cern.ch (Henrik Frystyk Nielsen)
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To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch
Subject: WIT is back on line
Reply-To: Henrik Frystyk Nielsen <frystyk@www0.cern.ch>
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As one of the last topics in the transition of service, WIT is now back
on line. For more information on WIT, please look at

	http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/WIT/User/Overview.html

For access to WIT itself, take a look at

	http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Discussion

Have fun!

-- cheers --

Henrik Frystyk
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From: Gavin Nicol <gtn@ebt.com>
Message-Id: <199503141601.LAA22280@ebt-inc.ebt.com>
To: jenglish@crl.com
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org, www-html@www.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <199503132040.AA15130@mail.crl.com> (message from Joe English on Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:40:36 -0800)
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
Content-Length: 2439

>> Paired elements like the above mean that you have to maintain more
>> state when you are rendering a document (ie. you have to traverse the
>> entire document tree preceeding the current element, whereas with
>> container based control, you only need to traverse the ancestors
>> leading up to a node).
> 
>But there is no requirement for a browser to treat
>marked ranges specially at all.  If a WWW user agent
>*does* implement highlighting of marked ranges that cross
>element boundaries, it will need to keep track of extra
>state somehow anyway, regardless of how the range is
>specified.
 
True. The state must be managed one way or another, but with
container-based markup one can localise the state to within a given
tree or subtree, whereas with paired tags one cannot. Paired tags are
basically on par with PI's in terms of processing model. The main
problem with container-based highlighting is that highlights and such
can cross element boundaries, so in order to use such tags, one 
effectively needs to parse the document, and insert tags based on the
tree.  

Someone else has mentioned that it is probably better to have such
data seperated from the document so that the document data sent with,
and without highlighting, would be identical. I agree with this. In
addition to this, defining a standard for basic query constructs seems
desirable. Keyword search is very limiting.

>A HyTime link to the 20th through 35th characters of
>the 4th child of the element with id "FOO" can't possibly
>work when browsers don't even count the same way.

True, and another problem is the definition of "character", though I
don't think non-conformance of browsers is a good technical reason for
not using such links. I should note that the choice of quantum will be
important. In general, the higher the structural level of the quantum,
the more robust (in the face of application-variations) such links
should be.

I think another very important argument in favor of HyTime-like
linking is that such links can be used with data types other than
HTML. I feel it to be *very* desirable to define a general mechanism
so that all data could be treated equally. For example, what would one
do if one wants to highlight a region of a graphic or movie?

Admittedly, the overhead (in terms of implementation cost) for a
generalised mechanism will be higher than paired tags, but I think the
benefits might very well outweigh the costs.

eturn-Path: dglazer@best.com 
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 12:22:22 -0800
From: David Glazer <dglazer@best.com>
Message-Id: <199503142022.MAA08520@shell1.best.com>
To: www-talk@w3.org
Subject: URL syntax to return byte ranges from files
Content-Length: 3439

I'm working on a (commercial) project to allow random access into files
stored on the Web.  We have it all working, using a simple CGI program that
takes a filename and byte range as arguments and returns the correct block
of data from the file.  Before shipping, however, I'd like to get group
input into the syntax we choose, with an eye towards being cleanly
extensible and inter-operable.

Executive Summary:
  Generalize support for WN's byte range syntax, ";bytes=<start>-<end>".
  See http://hopf.math.nwu.edu/docs/range.html for more info.

All comments and feedback are welcome.  In particular, if anyone knows of
any other already-deployed 'standards', or a more appropriate forum for
discussion, please say so (and/or forward this message).

Thanks for your time,
  dG

David Glazer
dglazer@best.com
  
===========================================================================
Problem statement:
  Define an URL syntax to return a specified byte range from a specified
  file living on the server.  Servers should be able to support the syntax
  via either a built-in extension or a CGI script.

CGI tradeoffs:

 Option 1: Use a CGI script
     Pros: simple to implement - doesn't require any server code changes
           provides the same syntax on all servers that support CGI
     Cons: requires an extra system call for each block requested
           requires the server to have CGI execution turned on
           requires a copy of the CGI script in each served directory
             (to avoid some scary security holes)
           only works with physical files located on the server's filesystem

 Option 2: Build support into the server
     Pros: more efficient
           easier to administer
           leverages all server name-mapping and security features
     Cons: requires agreement on syntax to be portable across servers
           even after agreement, newly modified servers need to be deployed

 Conclusion:
    Both options make sense and should be supported, ideally with a single
    URL syntax.  Hopefully, the CGI version will become less and less
    necessary as updated servers are rolled out.

Proposed Syntax:
  Given a base URL that identifies a document, append a modifier string to
  select a range.  The syntax of that string is ";bytes=<start>-<end>",
  where <start> and <end> are inclusive byte offsets.  The base URL can
  either be the normal document URL (for servers with built-in support) or
  a CGI URL.

Example:
  The file foo.doc is available via URL http://www.a.com/docs/foo.doc
  We want to get 512 bytes from foo.doc, starting at offset 1024.
  If the server has built-in support, the URL would be
    http://www.a.com/docs/foo.doc;bytes=1024-1535
  If using a CGI script (installed in foo.doc's directory), the URL would be
    http://www.a.com/docs/my.cgi?foo.doc;bytes=1024-1535

Note on Syntax:
  We considered several alternative syntaxes, such as:
     http://www.a.com/docs/my.cgi?foo.doc;bytes=1024+512
     http://www.a.com/docs/my.cgi?foo.doc+1024+1535
     http://www.a.com/docs/foo.doc?1024+512

  They differ mainly in punctuation and supplying a length instead of an
  ending offset.  I don't see any intrinsic benefit to most of the choices,
  so the facts that WN is shipping with a syntax, and that that syntax can
  also be cleanly used in CGI scripts, seem to carry the day.
===========================================================================
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Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:14:00 -0500
From: James Whitescarver <jim@eies.njit.edu>
Message-Id: <199503142314.SAA16962@eies.njit.edu>
To: rs@sun09.cci.com, www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Re: Client-side highlighting; tag proposal
Content-Length: 413

How about resurecting #, which the client handels anyway with meaning
on the server side.  To meet the basic need, we could use:

The minimum information is which occurance of what pattern was encountered.
ODA like SGML object addressing should be employed, in the long term, 
innitially, the nth occurance of "thisExactHTMLstring" would suffice.

 ../some/url#3#The

would select the 3rd "The" from the source.

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Subject: NCSA Mosaic for Windows Release
To: www-talk@w3.org
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Mosaic(TM) for Microsoft Windows Version 2.0 Beta 1 is available on NCSA's
ftp server, ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu.  NCSA Mosaic is a network navigational tool 
that will allow you to access networked information with the click of a mouse
button.  Mosaic is capable of accessing data via protocols such as HTTP, 
Gopher, FTP and NNTP.  Mosaic can access other data services such as Archie, 
WAIS, and Veronica through gateways servers.  NCSA Mosaic was designed to 
provide its user transparent access to these information sources and 
services.  Mosaic is copyrighted by the University of Illinois.  However,
it's available at no cost to individual users, Academic organizations, 
Government organizations and for internal business use.  If you plan to 
redistribute Mosaic or profit from the use of Mosaic, you should contact
NCSA for licensing information. (mosaic@ncsa.uiuc.edu)

We will be using the following naming schemes for this release:

With a Setup Program for Windows 3.1, WfW 3.11, Win NT (ix86)

	mos20b1.exe		Win3.x, WWG & NT (x86 processor)

Without a Setup Program:
	
	axp.mosaic.2.0.0b1.exe	  NT for the DEC aXP
	mips.mosaic.2.0.0b1.exe   NT for the MipsPC
	x86.mosaic.2.0.0b1.exe    Win3.x, WWG & NT (x86 processor)

Win3.1, WfW, and NT users should first attempt to install Mosaic using the 
setup program (mos20b1.exe), only in rare occasions will the setup program 
fail.  Mosaic and the setup program are Win32s applications and you MUST
install Win32s before you attempt to install Mosaic.  If the setup program 
still fails, please email mosaic-w@ncsa.uiuc.edu with a description of 
your machine and the type of error message you recieved.



Version 2.0.0 Beta 1
--------------------

Features and Enhancements:

Options, Preferences... All Mosaic configurable options are available 
			from the following menus: 
     General, Viewers, Services, Proxy, Tables, Anchors, Font Styles, Caching
Hotlist Manager
Inline JPEG Image Support
"New" Right Mouse Button Menu Options
News Reader Improvements
Status Bar Improvements
Tool Bar Improvements
New Accelerator Keys
Command line mailto:
Copy and Paste from the Document view window
Scrolling and resizing the Mosaic window
Interupt for Windows NT
Enter Stand Alone Mode (-s)
Left and Right arrow keys for anchor navigation
Mosaic's Splash Screen
+/- keys magnify all fonts on screen proportionally
Improved unknown file type handling
ALT information from IMG tags will be displayed.
Forms Enhancements 
Tab from one form field to another 
Selecting Enter on the last form field will submit the form 
Comment cards 



Bug Fixes
---------

Resource and Memory Leaks 
various Interrupt bugs 
Menu Editor bugs (It got Nuked), it was replaced by a full featured, 
				 drag and drop Hotlist Manager. 
Find now functional 
file transfer invoked when clicking on ftp:// links 
Ampersands in URLs not parsed as entities 
And Many More... To many to remember or list....... We're starting with 
a clean slate. ;^)


For complete details about the enhancements, see the relnotes.htm file 
that is bundled with Mosaic.


NCSA Mosaic for Windows is available from our anonymous ftp server, 
ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu, in the /Mosaic/Windows directory.  You can also get to 
release information from our home page.

http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/WinMosaic/HomePage.html



Enjoy,


The NCSA Software Development Group
mosaic-w@ncsa.uiuc.edu


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

			    GENERAL INFORMATION
			    ===================

Win32s Update Information
-------------------------

Windows NT users and Win95 beta-testers
---------------------------------------
Windows NT and Win95 users don't need Win32s. The operating systems are 
32-bit operating systems with OLE support built-in. 


Windows 3.1 and Windows for Workgroups Users
--------------------------------------------
You MUST install WIN32S BEFORE you install Mosaic. Win3.1(3.11) and Windows 
for Workgroups 3.1(WfW3.11) are 16-bit operating systems and you'll need to 
use Microsoft's Win32s software. This software will allow you to run 32-bit 
applications in Windows 3.1 or WfW 3.11. Since Mosaic is also an OLE 
compatible application, and Mosaic users must use Win32s v1.25 with the OLE 
v2.02. This version of Win32s is available at NCSA's ftp site, 
ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu, in the /Mosaic/Windows directory. The file W32sOLE.exe is 
a self-extracting executable. Just put this file in a temporary directory 
like c:\install, type w32sOLE, and the associated files will decompress. 
Now type install. 

Win32s v1.25 was released by Microsoft to address the foreign language 
problems and the compobj.dll problems some Windows users were experiencing 
with Win32s v1.20. We recommend you upgrade to this latest version if you 
prefer to use a language other than English(American) in your Windows 
environment, OR if you experiencing problems with the compobj.dll library 
while using Microsoft Office, Excel or Word. In general, if you are NOT 
experiencing problems with Win32s v1.20, upgrading to Win32s v1.25 is not 
required. 



eturn-Path: FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com 
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From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com>
To: www-talk <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: RE: Web Scripting Languages
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 07:54:00 PST
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Some responses:

1) I wrote in <2F5B1459@MSMAIL.INDY.TCE.COM>:
>One possible base for this work would be Safe-Tcl, Nathaniel Borenstein's
>and Marshall Rose's email scripting extension for John Ousterhout's Tcl/Tk. 

> Safe-Tcl uses a two-level interpreter, where the outer interpreter 
supports
>a carefully limited set of high-level capabilities.
It is a twin interpreter, with an untrusted interpreter that runs the 
Safe-Tcl scripts, while the other, trusted, interpreter can be used to 
extend the untrusted interpreter.  This is what I get for working from 
memory on a paper read months ago...

2) Mike Meyer wrote in <19950306.798A628.667C@contessa.phone.net>:
>> i) Be able to walk the Web on their own (travel from machine to machine);
>
>Robots or spiders, which have already been written using library
>facilities as discussed above.
Robots and spiders run on a host machine but operate on a set or series (or 
graph or ...) of other machines.  The proposed scripts would be able to move 
from machine to machine.  Rather than this model (the spider/robot model):
     Script on machine A
          Operate on machine B
          Operate on machine C
          Operate on machine D
          ...
this model (the autonomous agent model):
     Script on machine B, operating on machine B
     Script on machine C, operating on machine C
     Script on machine D, operating on machine D
     ...
could also be used for these scripts with either sequential or parallel 
execution of "Script" on B, C, D, ....  The first model is fine for when 
"avail. CPU cycles << network bandwidth" whereas the second model is 
appropriate for "avail. CPU cycles >> network bandwidth", while it's a 
toss-up when available CPU cycles are close to the network bandwidth.  As 
Nathaniel Borenstein wrote:
>I've argued for a procedural language (safe-tcl or something
>better, if it comes along) because I want people to be able to do the
>maximal possible number of things safely.  It isn't that I'm not sure
>what *I* want to do, it's that I am absolutely sure that nobody knows
>what *everybody* will want to do.  For that reason, my focus has been on
>providing the maximum amount of expressive power that is compatible with
>a safe language for untrusted scripts.
The autonomous agent model at the least provides a second method for 
performing Web operations that may better fit the available resources (CPU 
cycles, network bandwidth, ...).  There are cases (network bandwidth 
constraints again, for one) where a locally executing agent might be allowed 
greater permissions than a remotely executing spider.


3) Mike Meyer also wrote:
>> I suggest the name "Spider" for this Safe-Tcl extension.
>
>That name is already in use as an alias for web-wondering robots.
Agreed.  How about "TclWeb", then?


======================================================================
Mark Fisher                            Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com                   Indianapolis, IN

"Just as you should not underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon
traveling 65 mph filled with 8mm tapes, you should not overestimate
the bandwidth of FTP by mail."
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From: Fisher Mark <FisherM@is3.indy.tce.com>
To: www-talk <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Safe CGI Scripting Language (was: Re: Web Scripting Languages)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 08:11:00 PST
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Occasional comments by webmasters on this list leads me to ask: What kind of 
CGI scripts are being written in environments where anyone is permitted to 
write a CGI script?  Are these scripts mainly novel gateways, or are they 
for Web-based interactive applications, or what?  As a system administrator 
who has never run a machine where programs could be arbitrarily placed into 
the main binary directories, I am at a loss for imagining where completely 
arbitrary CGI scripting would be appropriate even in a research environment.

Novel gateways would seem to be a CGI script category that would be amenable 
to the techniques employed in Safe-Tcl with respect to providing a 
restricted, high-level set of primitives.  If most of these scripts provide 
different formatting and detail levels for a few host programs (like 
different SQL database reports), one useful constraint would be to limit the 
allowed list of executable host programs, rather than providing a 
general-purpose "exec()" capability.
======================================================================
Mark Fisher                            Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm@indy.tce.com                   Indianapolis, IN

"Just as you should not underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon
traveling 65 mph filled with 8mm tapes, you should not overestimate
the bandwidth of FTP by mail."
eturn-Path: jim@eies.njit.edu 
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:33:49 -0500
From: James Whitescarver <jim@eies.njit.edu>
Message-Id: <199503151733.MAA28216@eies.njit.edu>
To: gtn@ebt.com, www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: Client-side SELECTION; virtual anchors, colaborative hypermedia
Content-Length: 3124

I think I responded to the wrong question re: client-side highlighting.
Nevenmind.  My problem is client-side selection, not highlighting.

I do think it's important that we support virtual anchors addressed by
an object identifyer rather than a name.  Collaborative hypetext will require,
for example, that we select text and submit updates.  Named anchores should 
also be capable of addressing a personal or group proxy, e.g. 

<a name="theFollowingStuff" proxy="http://host.port/cgi/docMgr">stuff</a>.

Additionally, the client can route virtual and named anchor references 
through personal or group proxy servers to provide the functionality 
the user wants. (in the mean time all requests can be proxied to add
personalized functionality).  The client will need to create object identifier
anchor references for selections that are not named in the source, append
the identifier to the get, put, post, annotate, etc., and append the anchor 
reference to the url.  Some operations, such as PUT will require addition data 
to complete, but this will ultimately be the responsibility of the proxy, and
should not be implemented in the client unless the service (e.g. mail, news)
is also implimented in the client.

some/url#name  or some/url##<objectIdentifier> would provide an extensible
starting point and furtile soil for server developers of group hypermedia
support and other applications that can profit from user selected anchors.

A put operation, for example, may propose an edit that anchors existing
text to some href somewhere. The server authenticates the user, and files
the proposed update accordingly.  A personal proxy might indicate the users
proposed update on subsequent accesses to the document. A group proxy could
show the whole groups proposed links, etc.  The public proxy, named in the
actual body, p, or a tag, provies the public view of the documents evolution
and possible futures.  We may want a SELECT in HTTP distinct from GET
to present the user the menu of functionality supported by the page/anchor
via the various proxies (we'll need rules for well behaived value added
proxies).  Services that don't use the anchor part of the url, I expect, 
should ignore it.  An ADD-ANCHOR distict from PUT and LINK might be
desireable.

We don't want to provide dead end text without links, yet anchoring every
word does not work if the user wants to select a phrase.  The user selected
anchor/region provides a general solution independant of the particular
application, intuitive to users familiar with cut/copy/paste type functionality.

Increasingly we are encoding semantic information in HTML coding of documents.
User selected anchors provide a means for application developers to capture,
manupulate, and utilize such information.  Thw WEB is NOT static documents,
it is a dynamic network of information.  We need ubiquitious clients with
the power to address html segments and maniputate them in an object
oriented manner.  What I'm suggesting is a start in that direction, so
service developers can run amuck and build the knowledge bases of 
tomorrow.

Jim Whitescarver. jim@njit.edu
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Subject: WWW Fall '94 Tapes (fwd)
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:26:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Daniel Simms <dsimms@uiuc.edu>
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Hi,
  For those who don't read the mbone mailing list, but are interested in
seeing the sessions broadcast on the mbone last October again, we will be
rebroadcasting them next week. 

  These are the times and dates of the tapes to be rebroadcast. If there are
any problems or questions, please mail me (dsimms@ncsa.uiuc.edu) about it. 

For Europe:
Tape                         Date       Local Time     Universal Time
"First Plenary Session"      Mon Mar 20 05:00:00 CST   11:00:00 GMT

"Security on the web"        Tue Mar 21 04:00:00 CST   10:00:00 GMT
"Commerce"                   Tue Mar 21 05:30:00 CST   11:30:00 GMT

"Publishing"                 Wed Mar 22 04:00:00 CST   10:00:00 GMT
"Authoring"                  Wed Mar 22 05:30:00 CST   11:30:00 GMT

"HTML & SGML"                Thu Mar 23 04:00:00 CST   10:00:00 GMT
"WWW / Mosaic"               Thu Mar 23 05:30:00 CST   11:30:00 GMT



For West Coast, Austrailia, East Asia:
Tape                         Date       Local Time     Universal Time
"Plenary Session"            Mon Mar 20 16:00:00 CST   22:00:00 GMT

"Security on the web"        Tue Mar 21 16:00:00 CST   22:00:00 GMT
"Commerce"                   Tue Mar 21 17:30:00 CST   23:30:00 GMT

"Publishing"                 Wed Mar 22 16:00:00 CST   22:00:00 GMT
"Authoring"                  Wed Mar 22 17:30:00 CST   23:30:00 GMT

"HTML & SGML"                Thu Mar 23 16:00:00 CST   22:00:00 GMT
"WWW / Mosaic"               Thu Mar 23 17:30:00 CST   23:30:00 GMT

Cheers,
dan

-- 
Daniel Simms      "A common mistake that people make when trying to design 
dsimms@uiuc.edu   something completely foolproof [is] to underestimate the 
(217) 328-7060    ingenuity of complete fools" -Ford Prefect
eturn-Path: jjones@helpmt.sio.com 
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Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 11:52:03 -0700
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From: jjones@helpmt.sio.com (jjjones - SIO Technologies Corp.)
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: HTML3 browser for VMS
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HTML3 browser client for VMS.

Is one out there? Who's working on one?

NetScape doesn't have a VMS client yet that I know of, and ARENA appears to
only run on UNIX/X11 so far.

jjjones
jjones@sio.com
http://www.sio.com/~jjones/
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From: cheung@eplrx7.es.dupont.com (Bryan Cheung)
Subject: spaces in path of form action
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Should it be legal to have spaces in the path of a form's action line??

Example:

<form method="POST" action="/bin/do-something/with/some spaces in path/">

I would like to use this sort of action line to invoke "do-something" as a
CGI-script with PATH_INFO set to "/with/some spaces in path". NCSA httpd
truncates the PATH_INFO at the first space. Is this the right thing to do?
If not, why not. If so, how hard is it to fix??

-- Bryan Cheung


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jjones@helpmt.sio.com writes:
> HTML3 browser client for VMS.
> 
> Is one out there? Who's working on one?
> 
> NetScape doesn't have a VMS client yet that I know of, and ARENA appears to
> only run on UNIX/X11 so far.

  Emacs-w3 works on VMS (tty or X) - has all of HTML 3.0 but tables and
math, which are being worked on now.

  Now that lynx is apparently being worked on again, that might be of some
use too.

-Bill P.
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Subject: Re: HTML3 browser for VMS
To: jjones@helpmt.sio.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:25:55 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <95031511520341@helpmt.sio.com> from "jjjones - SIO Technologies Corp." at Mar 15, 95 02:07:46 pm
Organisation: Computer Graphics Unit, University of Manchester, UK
Phone: +44 0161 275 6045
Fax: +44 0161 275 6040
Operating-System: some HP unix thingy
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jjjones - SIO Technologies Corp writes:

> HTML3 browser client for VMS. 
> Is one out there? Who's working on one?
> 
> NetScape doesn't have a VMS client yet that I know of, and ARENA appears to
> only run on UNIX/X11 so far.

I would suggest waiting until the source for Arena is released, then porting 
that. I suspect the multi-threaded stuff should port fairly cleanly onto the 
Posix threads in OpenVMS; you may need to watch out for 32-bit-isms as I doubt 
the code will be 64-bit clean (? Does Arena have an AXP OSF/1 port? If so 
that problem should be taken care of.)

In the meantime, you could look at the multi-threaded version of the W30 
common code library and see how that ports to Posix threads.

Suggest you mail the Arean team marked attention Phill Hallam-Baker, who 
will be able to give you a considered opinion about how readily the code 
will port to OpenVMS. I think Digital have finally moved from X11R4 to X11R5
so there should be few problems there.

--
Chris Lilley
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Technical Author, Manchester and North HPC Training & Education Centre  |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Computer Graphics Unit,        |     Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk      |
| Manchester Computing Centre,   |     Voice: +44 61 275 6045             |
| Oxford Road,                   |       Fax: +44 61 275 6040             |
| Manchester, UK.  M13 9PL       |      X400: /I=c /S=lilley              |
|                 /O=manchester-computing-centre /PRMD=UK.AC /ADMD= /C=GB/|
|<A HREF="http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html">my page</A> | 
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|This is supposed to be data transfer, not artificial intelligence. M VanH|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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From: cnw3@di.uminho.pt (Conferencia Nacional WWW)
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To: www-talk@w3.org
Subject: WWW Conference (Internet Multimedia Information) - Call for Papers
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                            WWW National Conference

                        Internet Multimedia Information



                                 July 6-8, 1995

                                Minho University

                                Braga, Portugal


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


                                Call for Papers


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WWW National Conference aims to analyze the state of the art of WWW
technology, and the mid-term strategic lines of the consumer groups and
multimedia information suppliers in the Internet.

Technological aspects will be focused, as well as the emergent applications
and strategies which condition the utilization of these applications.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Conference Topics


  1.  Strategy

       1.  WWW development perspectives
       2.  Commercial integration of WWW services: billing and certification
       3.  Legal aspects of Internet Services
       4.  Social, Cultural and Economical aspects of the Net


  2.  Technology

       1.  Introduction to WWW
       2.  Interfaces
       3.  WWW Services Administration
       4.  WWW and Education
       5.  New standards in the Internet


  3.  Applications

       1.  Emerging functionality on the WWW
       2.  Application of multimedia information systems 
       3.  Virtual Reality
       4.  Virtual Communities
       5.  Campus-Wide Information System
       6.  Information discovering and retrieving


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Presentation Topics

Topics for presentation include, but are not limited to, the following:

  1.  Strategy

       1.  WWW development perspectives
                National and regional initiatives
                Connectivity and national infrastructures
                Community access to the Net
                Empowering new users
                Band width and Costs
       2.  Legal aspects of Internet Services
                Which Legislation?
                Who can provide services?
                Warranties and Liberties
                Intellectual property rights
       3.  Commercial integration of WWW services: billing and certification
                Tools for WWW Business support
                Accountancy, Fees and Payment methods
                Security and Privacy
                Commercial use of Internet
                Emerging business opportunities
       4.  Social, Cultural and Economical aspects of the Net
                Impact and changes
                Etiquette rules

  2.  Technology

       1.  Introduction to WWW
                WWW
                Communication Protocols
                HTML V1-3/SGML
                Developments towards a Global Information Infrastructure
       2.  Interfaces
                Existent browsers, servers, ...
                What can we expect in the future?
       3.  WWW Services Administration
                Centralization Vs Distribution
                Multiple Servers management
                Inter-Operationality with other services (Gateways)
                Caching, Mirroring, Proxies
                Agents, Robots, Spiders and Crawlers
       4.  WWW and Education
                Case Studies / Applicability
                Computer based training and teaching
                Internet, Multimedia and WWW in Education
       5.  New standards in the Internet
                Authoring tools integration

  3.  Applications

       1.  Emerging functionality on the WWW
                Radio, Video
                Security
       2.  Multimedia information systems applications
       3.  Virtual Reality
       4.  Virtual Communities
       5.  Campus-Wide Information System
                Resources, Services and Tools
                Information discovering and retrieving
                Information Access
                Kiosks

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information for Paper Submission

We invite authors to present communications (based on submited papers)
on the topics above, for a foresight duration of 20 minutes, followed by 
discussion.

Papers will be selected based on two to four pages abstracts. The abstracts,
in Portuguese or English, should include name, address, affiliation, 
phone number, fax number, and e-mail address. They should also include a 
keyword list, tied to the topics listed above. Upon acceptance, full papers 
will be required.

All submissions will be refereed by at least two members of the Programme
Committee.

Extended abstracts should be submitted by 23 April 1995.


Note: Only extended abstracts in plain ASCII text, HTML or PostScript are 
      accepted by e-mail.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Important dates


+--------------------+----------------+
| Deadline for       |                |
| large abstracts    |    23 April    |
| submission         |                |
|--------------------+----------------|
| Notification       |     08 May     |
| of acceptance      |                |
|--------------------+----------------|
| Camera-ready       |     05 June    |
| papers due         |                |
|--------------------+----------------|
| Conference         |   06, 07 and   |
|                    |     08 July    |
+--------------------+----------------+


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Publications


Conference proceedings (in CD-ROM) containing full papers will be distributed
to the participants at the conference. They will also be available in WWW at
the conference page.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information, Registration


The WWW National Conference - Internet Multimedia Information, will be held 
at the Minho University. General information concerning the conference, 
registration, and a variety of hotel accommodations booked at special rates 
will be available in a separate announcement.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Organization


o Program Committee
  +++++++++++++++++

  Prof. Jose Esgalhado Valenca, Head of Informatics Department, U. Minho
  Prof. Alberto Proenca, Head of Informatics Center, U. Minho
  Prof. Altamiro Machado, Informatics Department, U. Minho
  Prof. Dias Figueiredo, U. Coimbra
  Prof. Heitor Pina, FCCN (National Cientific Computation Foundation)
  Prof. Legatheaux Martins, U. Nova Lisboa / PUUG (Portuguese Unix Users Group)
  Prof. Nuno Guimaraes, INESC / U. Tecnica Lisboa
  Prof. Pedro Veiga, Faculdade Ciencias Lisboa / INESC
  Prof. Ruela, U. Porto
  Prof. Vasco Freitas, Informatics Department, U. Minho



o Organisation Committee
  ++++++++++++++++++++++

  Jose Esgalhado Valenca   General Chair - Informatics Department, U. Minho
  Carlos Baquero           Informatics Department, U. Minho
  Francisco Pinto          Informatics Center, U. Minho
  Jorge Portugal Andrade   Informatics Department, U. Minho
  Jose Pina Miranda        Informatics Department, U. Minho

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contact and Abstracts submission

CNW3
Departamento de Informatica
Universidade do Minho, Campus de Gualtar
4710 Braga
Portugal

URL:    http://www.di.uminho.pt/cnw3.html
Phone:  +351 (53) 604470
Fax:    +351 (53) 612954
e-mail: cnw3@di.uminho.pt
eturn-Path: frystyk@www5.cern.ch 
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From: frystyk@www5.cern.ch (Henrik Frystyk Nielsen)
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org, lilley@afsmail.cern.ch
Subject: Re: HTML3 browser for VMS
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> I would suggest waiting until the source for Arena is released, then porting 
> that. I suspect the multi-threaded stuff should port fairly cleanly onto the 
> Posix threads in OpenVMS; you may need to watch out for 32-bit-isms as I doubt 
> the code will be 64-bit clean (? Does Arena have an AXP OSF/1 port? If so 
> that problem should be taken care of.)

Both Arena and the Library of Common Code supports a 64-bit architecture.
 
> In the meantime, you could look at the multi-threaded version of the W30 
> common code library and see how that ports to Posix threads.

It is important to notice that the threaded model used in the Library of Common
Code (and hence Arena, Line Mode Browser etc.) is completely platform independent.
It uses one process, one stack, and one set of registers and hence it does even
run under msdos/windows. It does not require POSIX threads or any other thread
specification.

BTW: I have now a TEST VERSION of a windows port using WinSock. It is available
from

	http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Library/Status.html

Documentation of the threaded library can be found here as well.

Comments are welcome!

-- cheers --

Henrik Frystyk
eturn-Path: PVDW@info.rau.ac.za 
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Organization:  Rand Afrikaans University
To: Anu Garg <agarg@alpha.ces.cwru.edu>, www-talk@www10.w3.org
Date:          Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:35:22 GMT+2
Subject:       Re: Reading HTML offline
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Try using the latest version of Mosaic (Beta 1). It gives you an 
option to save HTML files into plain text. But remember saving an HTML 
file only gives you the text part, the images aren't necessarily 
there... should be downloaded separetly....

Pieter----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. P.W.van der Walt                     Internet:PVDW@info.rau.ac.za
Library Services:Information Technology  Tel: +27 11 489-2166
P.O.Box 524                              Fax: +27 11 726-7723
Rand Afrikaans University                Telex: 424526SA
Auckland Park                            
2006
Republic of South Africa

http://www.rau.ac.za/Bib/raubib.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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To: www-talk@w3.org
Organization: Ulster County Community College
Date:         Fri, 17 Mar 1995 17:12:30 EST
Subject:      Need help with Home Page on Macintosh
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I am looking for an experienced home page builder to answer 
questions.  I am doing an internship for Ulster County Community 
College and am new to the internet.  I am creating a home page for 
our college.  I get stuck with some things at times and no one around 
here really knows what they're doing.  So, it is my job to find out how 
to do it.  I am working on a Macintosh system (which I'm not too 
familiar with) and I am using Netscape as my WWW Browser.   If 
anyone can answer my questions, I will be forever grateful. 

 Here at the college we only have access to listserv's, that means: no 
newgroups or usenets, no bbs, no fun and games because it isn't 
considered educational.  If anyone knows of any other good 
resources that I can use for my project, feel free to drop me some 
E-mail.

How would you write a pathname for a file in folder within folder within 
folder on a Macintosh?

When creating links in an HTML document from the Home page to 
another file, how can you get it (with a link or command) to return to 
the home page.  I tried linking it to the home page file, but that didn't 
work.  It said  "Unable to locate file."   It found the file the first time so 
I can't understand why it won't find it the second time.
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Subject:      listserv
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I am not familiar with listserv's.  Can someone explain to me 
graphically how it works.  Where do all the messages go?  How does 
someone read the messages that are posted?  I just don't understand 
what happens or what processes the message goes through once it is 
sent.
eturn-Path: ses@tipper.oit.unc.edu 
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From: Simon Spero <ses@tipper.oit.unc.edu>
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Subject: HTTP/1.0 302 Simon Moved
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Location: mailto:ses@eit.com

Just in case anyone is interested, I've now moved to the Bay Area - more 
specifically Menlo Park, and the friendly arms of EIT (Enterprise 
Integration Technology). Although the basketball team isn't nearly as 
good, and I still haven't found a place to get good grits, I'm surviving :)

Now that I'm here, I'll be working on the same sort of stuff I was at 
Carolina; advanced web servers, and the HTTP-NG protocol. I'll be posting 
the current draft of the NG spec this weekend (at the moment I'm using 
someone else's DragonDictate, so I have to wait in line :-)


My snail address is now 
	EIT, Suite 400
	800 El Camino Real
	Menlo Park
	CA 94025

Phone: (415)-617-1251

Simon
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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 14:57:04 +0530 (IST)
From: Rupesh Kapoor <rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in>
Subject: What all does html support?
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: <199503022112.NAA08241@hnear>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.89.9503161403.A1026-0100000@kriti>
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Hi,
	It's amazing to find more syntax being supported by these browsers 
each day. For instance, when I converted a MSWord document into text only 
form today, was shocked to see netscape 1.0 correctly interpreting octal 
codes like \225, \227 etc as bullets, regd & copyright symbols.

	Can anyone supply me a pointer to the exact set of such symbols 
supported by these browsers? Of particular interest are Mosaic & netscape 
1.{0,1}

Thanxall
Rupesh

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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 95 08:48 PST
From: wmperry@spry.com
To: rupesh@henna.iitd.ernet.in
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Subject: Re: What all does html support?
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Rupesh Kapoor writes:
> Hi,
> 	It's amazing to find more syntax being supported by these browsers 
> each day. For instance, when I converted a MSWord document into text only 
> form today, was shocked to see netscape 1.0 correctly interpreting octal 
> codes like \225, \227 etc as bullets, regd & copyright symbols.
> 
> 	Can anyone supply me a pointer to the exact set of such symbols 
> supported by these browsers? Of particular interest are Mosaic & netscape 
> 1.{0,1}

  This is generally a font issue - was this in windows netscape?  Try it
with netscape/X, and it might/might not work.  I hardcoded in a few
conversions for emacs-w3 based on the more popular ones people use from
windows fonts (quotes, cpoyright, registered, etc).

-Bill P.
eturn-Path: debbie@periplum.cdinet.com 
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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 12:25:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Debbie Sinmao <debbie@periplum.cdinet.com>
To: DEBBERL@sunyulster.edu
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: listserv
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Here's an excerpt on LISTSERV from the TERENA (Trans-European Research and 
Education Networking Association) home page (http://www.earn.net/)

"LISTSERV is a distribution list management package. It allows
groups of computer users with a common interest to communicate among 
themselves. It makes it very easy for even a novice user to discover, 
join and participate in these interest group mailing lists. LISTSERV also 
provides facilities for logging and archiving of mail traffic, file 
server functions, and database searches of archives and files."

You could get more info on LISTSERV by sending an e-mail with the 
command HELP or INFO to listserv@listserv.net.

Or you could ftp LISTSERV info at EARN's ftp site: ftp.earn.net in the 
directory /pub/doc/listserv/ to get a user's guide to LISTSERV.
	
------------------------------------------------------------------Debbie Sinmao

On Fri, 17 Mar 1995 DEBBERL@sunyulster.edu wrote:

> I am not familiar with listserv's.  Can someone explain to me 
> graphically how it works.  Where do all the messages go?  How does 
> someone read the messages that are posted?  I just don't understand 
> what happens or what processes the message goes through once it is 
> sent.
> 
eturn-Path: masinter@parc.xerox.com 
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Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
In-Reply-To: wmperry@spry.com's message of Fri, 17 Mar 1995 22:53:59 -0800 <m0rq1fi-00000EC@monolith>
Subject: Re: What all does html support?
From: Larry Masinter <masinter@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Larry Masinter <masinter@parc.xerox.com>
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Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 09:52:47 PST
Content-Length: 1931

Yeeesh! No! Where's that rolled-up newspaper?

Rupesh Kapoor asked:
>> Hi,
>> 	It's amazing to find more syntax being supported by these browsers 
>> each day. For instance, when I converted a MSWord document into text only 
>> form today, was shocked to see netscape 1.0 correctly interpreting octal 
>> codes like \225, \227 etc as bullets, regd & copyright symbols.
>> 
>> 	Can anyone supply me a pointer to the exact set of such symbols 
>> supported by these browsers? Of particular interest are Mosaic & netscape 
>> 1.{0,1}

And Bill Perry answered:
>   This is generally a font issue - was this in windows netscape?  Try it
> with netscape/X, and it might/might not work.  I hardcoded in a few
> conversions for emacs-w3 based on the more popular ones people use from
> windows fonts (quotes, cpoyright, registered, etc).

This isn't a _FONT_ issue, it is a _CHARACTER SET_ issue. HTML is
normatively sent in ISO-8859-1, a character set that has several
special characters in it. If you're building a browser that accepts
HTML, you should do the best you can rendering ISO-8859-1 on the
user's terminal, even if you don't have the right fonts. Similarly, if
a server has documents written using something other than ISO-8859-1
(e.g., Macintosh character set) it should either _translate_ the
document into the right character set or else _label_ it
appropriately:
content-type: text/html;charset="whatever"

This is especially true if you want to send, oh, Korean documents to
Korean-capable clients. Don't rely on the happenstance of
client/server accidentially translating the characters the same way!

We have to head off this particularly nasty barrier to
interoperability. You don't have to all use the same character set,
but please pay attention to the charset and label the things that you
have.

(I'm getting on WMPerry's case because he's the implementor of
the browser that _I_ use most frequently. :))

Larry


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From: James Gwertzman <gwertzma@das.harvard.edu>
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: typical proxy size?
Content-Length: 234

I'm currently writing up some caching reseach, and I need to know what
typical web-proxy sizes are. If you could please email me the size of
your campus web-proxy I can get a good sense of average values. Thank
you very much.

James.
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Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 15:52:39 +0001 (EST)
From: Steve H Rose <habib@world.std.com>
Subject: Running Netscape on top of Spry tcp/ip stack
To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
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Hello there.

Has anyone had any luck running Netscape on top of Spry's tcp/ip stack -- 
i.e. Internet in a Box?  I haven't been able to get it to work, and am 
wondering if there is a conflict betwen the two, or a quick fix.

Also, are there any really easy to use implementations of winsock that 
work effectively with Netscape?  I downloaded a copy of trumpet, but 
don't have the time to play with it.  Is chameleon a faster way to go, 
and will Netscape work effectively on top of that stack?

Thanks much,

Steve Habib Rose

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Subject: Re: Running Netscape on top of Spry tcp/ip stack
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 Steve Habib Rose <habib@world.std.com> wrote:
          
 >>  Also, are there any really easy to use implementations of winsock 
 >>  that work effectively with Netscape?  I downloaded a copy of
 >>  trumpet, but don't have the time to play with it.  Is chameleon a 
 >>  faster way to go, and will Netscape work effectively on top of that 
 >>  stack?
          
     Never tried Netscape with Spry.  However, it works fine on both 
     NetManage Chameleon and Trumpet. Trumpet ain't that hard to set 
     up and you'll save yourself beaucoup bucks by going that way !
          
     bon chance / greg <ghardison@mcdermott.com>
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From: Nitin Borwankar <nitin@borwankar.com>
Message-Id: <199503192245.OAA01732@nbor.borwankar.com>
Subject: Another approach to agent architecture [ was Re: agents .. ]
To: sdm7g@virginia.edu (Steven D. Majewski)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 14:45:16 -0800 (PST)
Cc: agents@sun.com, www-talk@www10.w3.org, html-wg@oclc.org,
        safe-tcl@cs.utk.edu
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.90.950308210942.24437B-100000@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU> from "Steven D. Majewski" at Mar 8, 95 11:26:46 pm
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In your message you, Steven D. Majewski, said in most eloquent fashion
> 
[...]

> 
>  To make *any* remote execution system safe, the functions and capabilities
> have to be standardized on a higher level. 

This is a long reply to a long post to many lists so I am summarizing
the ideas at the top.
This will allow you to hit delete right away.

This message contains suggestions for developing ideas mentioned by
Steven along the same lines but with some very specific implementation
details included.

Summary :-
---------

Separate out the "safe" functionality in safe-tcl from the generic language
facilites.

Put the "safe" functionality in a set of libraries ( locally extensible )
in an Agent API.

Define an intermediate language ( agent-lingua-franca ) which is the content
of the enabled mail message. All "favorite" scripting languages will
be converted to agent-lingua-franca by MUA extensions.

Agent-lingua-franca is the output of client-side MUA's.
Agent-lingua-franca is the input to the host side facility which
receives the message.
An agent-lingua-franca interpreter at the host side converts it
into  usual generic language operations like control flow, variable manipulation
etc. + calls to the standard Agent API.

Back-end the client-side enabled-mail creation facility with a lingua-franca
converter which converts my favorite religious language to lingua-franca.

Front-end the host side "safe" facility with an agent-lingua-franca interpreter.
Incoming enabled mail is un-MIME'ed and then fed as a script to this
interpreter.


Why create "yet another language" when safe-tcl will do ?
Well, safe-tcl won't do, except for those who already like safe-tcl.
There are hundreds of thousands of people who program for a living and would
like to use their favorite scripting language to do enabled mail.
An intermediate language let's them do that.

End-of-Summary
--------------


In your message you, Steven D. Majewski, said in most eloquent fashion
> 
[...]

> 
>  To make *any* remote execution system safe, the functions and capabilities
> have to be standardized on a higher level. 

Being familiar with the MS Windows side of things and being a lurker
on this list I have been thinking about the "agent-language-standard"
issue for a while and have come to the same conclusion.
While other Object technologies like CORBA, DSOM, OpenDoc have been
mentioned, one approach worth noting is that taken in OLE2.0.
I am not an MS fan, nor a Windows-only developer, I came across this
technology as I had to write a requirements spec involving OLE2.0.

In the OLE2.0 approach, all object facilities are provided in libraries
and the calling interfaces are published as the OLE 2.0 Spec., as a
binary standard ( without language bindings ) ie a way to push and
pop on and off the stack.
 
The libraries created by MS are considered *one* implementation of the spec.

In this way 

1) Other implementations of the spec can be created.

2) The facilities are available in a language independent fashion - use your
   own favorite scripting language.

3) The facilites can be added incrementally as they are available in
   a number of DLL's, grouped by subfunction.

This, in my engineering opinion, is the way to go for agent functionality.

I will elucidate further, but we take a break now for flamers to
let off steam ( is that a mixed metaphor ? )

[...]

>  If we had a requirements analysis of these higher level functions, then
> it wouldn't make much difference what particular language syntax was 
> used - in fact, the higher level you go, the less it needs to be 
> considered as or implemented as procedural language. 

We agree here.
 
>  Nathaniel Borenstein has argued for a procedural language (safe-tcl) 
> because he's not quite sure what *exactly* he wants to do. 

I don't want to speak for Nathaniel but I'd like to put in my 2c worth as to
why a single language is not only a "Bad thing" ( TM ) but if one proposes
a single language philosophy then safe-tcl will lose. This will
happen simply because of the
sheer volume of users of say Visual Basic if MS were to push it as the 
"agent language" along with some half baked modifications and extensions
to MAPI etc.
General Magic's Telescript also shows such things are possible.

Besides, it is simply impractical to expect programmers with investment
of time in their favorite language, to switch over to safe-tcl when
they don't quite understand the technical reasons. Note that all the people
I am referring to in the above statement are not subscribed to this list
and will pick up something incrementally close to what they understand
rather than make a complete context switch.

On the other hand, take the example of BSD sockets. By creating a 
call level interface - Winsock, sockets functionality and in effect
access to a whole new area of programming was made available to a
very "different" community of programmers, with tremendous success.

This leads us to the dreaded "A" word. Do I dare utter it in these 
hallowed corridors ... ?  API - there I said it. API, API, API.
I'm still alive :->.

Perhaps, what is needed is a set of function calls, described as an
API, that provide the core of what is considered "safe" functionality.
While safe-tcl extensions are a way to extend safe-tcl what they are
is a set of function calls added to the original safe-tcl core.

Given this possibility a different problem arises - if people can use their
favorite scripting language how can the site hosting the "safe" facility
know what language to expect in enabled mail messages ?
Will the safe facility become a disjoint union of interpreters for
every imaginable language ?

It's possible, perhaps, to have something like a RMS's scheme idea where
safe-tcl and other languages be hosted by an underlying scheme interpreter -
but this still begs the question. You still need to write the 
interpreter for the n'th language before an e-mail message in the n'th
language is received - not something achievable in general.

Now I will really go out on a limb, but this is the only solution to
the problem above ( I believe ) :-

Instead of specifying a single high level language standard - like safe-tcl -
specify instead an *intermediate* language which is the only language
the "safe" host is expected to interpret.  the "safe" host interprets this
byte-code-like-but-better language and transaltes it into calls to a
standard set of library calls ( with local extensions ) - the Agent API.

On the mail-sender side :-

The mail sender creates an enabled mail program in his/her favorite
scripting language and submits it to a local client side enabled-mail-byte-code
-language-spitter-outer which of course spits out the standard byte-code-like-
but-better enabled-mail-language.

It is this language, ( intermediate language ), that is sent in the mail
and acted upon at the receiving end.

Now if you want to convert safe-tcl into that language and separate
out the "safe" functionality into an API, that might work.
Anyone want to do a VB-safe-tcl converter ? Telescript-safe-tcl ?

I am not suggesting this for any technical reasons, just for practical, 
down to earth reasons, like widespread acceptance in all programming 
communities including the PC based MS Windows community, for reasons like
not allowing someone with a larger installed base set the agenda for
enabled-mail, for reasons like not wanting your children to become
Visual Basic enabled MAPI programmers.


> 
> In short, I think a standard scripting language without a standard object
> model is pretty useless, so lets propose a standard object model(s) 

Yes, that's necessary before creating an API.


Nitin Borwankar,
Principal, Borwankar R&D
nitin@borwankar.com
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Subject: Re: Running Netscape on top of Spry tcp/ip stack
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Steve H. Rose writes:
> Hello there.
> 
> Has anyone had any luck running Netscape on top of Spry's tcp/ip stack -- 
> i.e. Internet in a Box?  I haven't been able to get it to work, and am 
> wondering if there is a conflict betwen the two, or a quick fix.
> 
> Also, are there any really easy to use implementations of winsock that 
> work effectively with Netscape?  I downloaded a copy of trumpet, but 
> don't have the time to play with it.  Is chameleon a faster way to go, 
> and will Netscape work effectively on top of that stack?

  You should be able to download a fix for this from
support.spry.com:/IBoxPatch/

-Bill P.
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org, habib@world.std.com
Subject: Re: Running Netscape on top of Spry tcp/ip stack
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     >> Also, are there any really easy to use implementations of winsock 
     >> that work effectively with Netscape?  I downloaded a copy of 
     >> trumpet, but don't have the time to play with it.  Is chameleon a 
     >> faster way to go, and will Netscape work effectively on top of that 
     >> stack?
     
     The Winsock that ships with Chameleon works great with Netscape. No 
     setup of fiddling involved. I've used Netscape with Chameleon NFS for 
     a few months now without a lick of trouble.
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Date: 20 Mar 95 10:55:17 EST
From: Jyrki Poysti <73647.1624@compuserve.com>
To: LISTSERV <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: Running Netscape...
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>Also, are there any really easy to use implementations of winsock that 
>work effectively with Netscape?  I downloaded a copy of trumpet, but 
>don't have the time to play with it.  Is chameleon a faster way to go, 
>and will Netscape work effectively on top of that stack?
>Thanks much,
>Steve Habib Rose

I have been testing both Trumpet and Chameleon. Trumpet is nice because
it starts, dials and logs in automatically once you start Netscape. On the
other hand, I haven't found any Mail application which would work with
Trumpet. Does anyone know?

Chameleon has Mail and lots of other stuff, but you have to start it
separately, which is not so nice. Or does anyone know how to start 
it from Netscape?

Best regs, Jyrki
73647.1624@compuserve.com


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To: www-talk@w3.org
Subject: Mosaic-2.6a1 (for X) NoProxy Patch
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Hello

I have written a patch for the Mosaic-2.6a1 to get NoProxy-support 
via Xressource.

f.e.
	Mosaic*noProxy: 	fh-wolfenbuettel.de:cle.de


This patch is also available from

	ftp://ftp.fh-wolfenbuettel.de/WWW-FHWF/misc/


A patched version for Solaris 2.4 (dynamic!) you can get from

	ftp://ftp.fh-wolfenbuettel.de/WWW-FHWF/SunOS5/


Have fun with this stuff :)


Bye bye Thorsten
______________________________________________________________________
  __________
 /___   ___/|
 |__/  /|__|/        Thorsten Ludewig
   /  / /  /|
  /__/ /  / /        E-Mail: th@rz.fh-wolfenbuettel.de
  |__|/  /_/____     WWW-Homepage: http://www.fh-wolfenbuettel.de/~th/
     /_________/|    IRC-Nickname: Daimos
     |_________|/





------ SCHNIPP / Mosaic-2.6a1.NoProxy.patch / SCHNAPP -------
diff -c ../Mosaic-2.6a1.orig/libwww2/HTAccess.c libwww2/HTAccess.c
*** ../Mosaic-2.6a1.orig/libwww2/HTAccess.c	Sun Mar 12 20:21:06 1995
--- libwww2/HTAccess.c	Mon Mar 20 09:42:38 1995
***************
*** 44,50 ****
  /* #define TRACE 1 */
  
  
! extern char *mo_check_for_proxy (char *);
  
  
  
--- 44,50 ----
  /* #define TRACE 1 */
  
  
! extern char *mo_check_for_proxy (char *, char *);
  
  
  
***************
*** 161,167 ****
  	 */
  	if ((proxy == NULL)||(proxy[0] == '\0'))
  	{
! 		proxy = mo_check_for_proxy(access);
  	}
  	
  #ifndef DIRECT_WAIS
--- 161,168 ----
  	 */
  	if ((proxy == NULL)||(proxy[0] == '\0'))
  	{
! 		proxy = mo_check_for_proxy(access,
! 				HTParse(addr, "", PARSE_HOST));
  	}
  	
  #ifndef DIRECT_WAIS
diff -c ../Mosaic-2.6a1.orig/src/gui.c src/gui.c
*** ../Mosaic-2.6a1.orig/src/gui.c	Sun Mar 12 20:21:33 1995
--- src/gui.c	Mon Mar 20 10:31:10 1995
***************
*** 312,319 ****
   *   The proxy gateway to use. (http://proxy.ncsa.uiuc.edu:911/)
   * remarks: This should really be open-ended configurable.
   ****************************************************************************/
! char *mo_check_for_proxy (char *access)
  {
  	if (access == NULL)
  	{
  		return((char *)NULL);
--- 312,361 ----
   *   The proxy gateway to use. (http://proxy.ncsa.uiuc.edu:911/)
   * remarks: This should really be open-ended configurable.
   ****************************************************************************/
! char *mo_check_for_proxy (char *access, char *host)
  {
+ 
+ /*
+  * XRessource NoProxy support added by
+  * 03/20/95 Thorsten Ludewig - th@rz.fh-wolfenbuettel.de
+  *                   http://www.fh-wolfenbuettel.de/~th/
+  * 
+  * f.e.
+  *   Mosaic*noProxy:	fh.wolfenbuettel.de:cle.de
+  *
+  */
+ 
+   if ( host != NULL && Rdata.no_proxy != NULL ) {
+     int i;
+     char *s, *e;
+     char  h[1024],
+          np[1024]; /* Ok - Not really nice. */
+ 
+     strcpy( h, host );
+     strcpy( np, Rdata.no_proxy );
+ 
+     /* lower-case only  */
+     for( i=0; h[i] != 0; i++ )
+       h[i] = tolower( h[i] );
+     for( i=0; np[i] != 0; i++ )
+       np[i] = tolower( np[i] );
+ 
+     s = np;
+     while ( s ) {
+       e = strchr( s, ':' );
+       if ( e ) {
+         *e = 0;
+         e++;
+       }
+       if( strstr( h, s )) {
+         return((char *)NULL);
+       }
+       s = e;
+     }
+   }
+ 
+ /**************** End of NoProxy *****************/
+ 
  	if (access == NULL)
  	{
  		return((char *)NULL);
diff -c ../Mosaic-2.6a1.orig/src/mosaic.h src/mosaic.h
*** ../Mosaic-2.6a1.orig/src/mosaic.h	Sun Mar 12 20:21:40 1995
--- src/mosaic.h	Mon Mar 20 09:11:23 1995
***************
*** 461,466 ****
--- 461,467 ----
    char *gopher_proxy;
    char *news_proxy;
    char *file_proxy;
+   char *no_proxy;
  
    int colors_per_inlined_image;
  
diff -c ../Mosaic-2.6a1.orig/src/xresources.h src/xresources.h
*** ../Mosaic-2.6a1.orig/src/xresources.h	Sun Mar 12 20:21:43 1995
--- src/xresources.h	Mon Mar 20 09:12:36 1995
***************
*** 202,207 ****
--- 202,209 ----
        offset (news_proxy), XtRString, NULL },
    { "fileProxy", "ProxyGateway", XtRString, sizeof (char *),
        offset (file_proxy), XtRString, NULL },
+   { "noProxy", "NoProxy", XtRString, sizeof (char *),
+       offset (no_proxy), XtRString, NULL },
  
    { "fullHostname", "FullHostname", XtRString, sizeof (char *),
        offset (full_hostname), XtRString, NULL },

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From: "Alexander, Larry" <lalexander@acad.com>
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Subject: Re[2]: Running Netscape...
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______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Running Netscape...
Author:  73647.1624@compuserve.com at ~Internet_Mail
Date:    3/20/95 4:33 PM





>I have been testing both Trumpet and Chameleon. Trumpet is nice because
>it starts, dials and logs in automatically once you start Netscape. On the 
>other hand, I haven't found any Mail application which would work with 
>Trumpet. Does anyone know?
>
>Chameleon has Mail and lots of other stuff, but you have to start 
>it separately, which is not so nice. Or does anyone know how to 
>start it from Netscape?
>
>Best regs, Jyrki
>73647.1624@compuserve.com


I have been using Trumpet 2.0 with the free version of Eudora with no 
problems. You might want to try this combination.

Where I am having terrible problems is getting Trumpet 2.0, TIA, the WinVN 
newsreader on a Netcom shell account to work.  Has anyone been able to get 
a combination like this working?


Thanks

Larry Alexander


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From: ann@sonic.net (Ann Lynnworth)
Subject: Re: Running Netscape...
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Jyrki et al,

J>On the other hand, I haven't found any Mail application which would work
with Trumpet. Does anyone know?

Eudora from qualcomm works great with trumpet.  I'm using it now.   The
professional version has "filters" which you can use to direct this list's
stuff into one nice pile.

You can have netscape and eudora open at the same time; send mail while
you're surfing...

- Ann
CIS 71242,3456
*******************************************************
Ann Lynnworth                             ann@sonic.net
SynchroniciTech               http://www.sonic.net/~ann
TimeWarp Records     http://www.vintage.com/mall/record
Software Development Since 1983: Paradox, C, Delphi....
*******************************************************

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Reply-To: hallam@dxal18.cern.ch
Subject: Re: HTML3 browser for VMS
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>I would suggest waiting until the source for Arena is released, then porting
>that. I suspect the multi-threaded stuff should port fairly cleanly onto the
>Posix threads in OpenVMS; you may need to watch out for 32-bit-isms as I doubt
>the code will be 64-bit clean (? Does Arena have an AXP OSF/1 port? If so
>that problem should be taken care of.)

There should be no desperate problems with such a port. OpenVMS for AXP may run
on a 64 bit machine but its a 32 bit operating system. There is a 64 bit port
for OSF/1 in any case. The only real problem would be the library which might 
possibly have diverged and started using the odd crass UNIXism.

Any volunteers?


--
Phillip M. Hallam-Baker

Not Speaking for anyone else.
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From: ramhorst@vnet.ibm.com
To: www-talk@w3.org, phernand@dc.uba.ar
Subject: Need clarification on HTML versions           
From: Guillermo Ramhorst
Subject: Need clarification on HTML versions
Content-Length: 484


Hi everyone,
I need some clarification about the revisions html has. More specifically, I
want to know if the versions of html are 1.0, 2.0, html+ and html 3.0, if
there is some correlation between them, if I'm missing one, if html+ and
html 3.0 are the same thing, etc.
Can anyone help?
thanks in advance!!

Guillermo Ramhorst (guille@vnet.ibm.com).
Tel: (54-1) 319-6592
Disclaimer: The opinions included herein are my own thoughts and by no means
are to be taken as those of IBM.

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Subject: Middleware Workshop(ACM SIGCOMM)
Content-Length: 4296

( I apologize if you receive this announcement more than once.   Please note
that the deadline for position papers is extended to April 30, 1995. )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Announcing a  NEW  feature at ACM SIGCOMM's annual Technical Symposium:

			      An Invited
			WORKSHOP on MIDDLEWARE
			  28-29  AUGUST 1995
			
		   immediately preceding  SIGCOMM95
		     30 August - September 1 1995

			  CAMBRIDGE, MA  USA

IMPORTANT!!!  The deadline for a brief position paper is APRIL 30, 1995.


Workshop Program Committee:
        Ken Birman - Cornell                 David Gifford - MIT          
        Barry Leiner - ARPA                  Larry Masinter - Xerox       
        Michael Schwartz - U. Colorado       Karen Sollins - MIT
        Jay Weber - EIT                      Lixia Zhang - Xerox

With the growth of the Internet and the corresponding agreement on a common
network and transport infrastructure comes a new opportunity. The consensus
on the use of the TCP/IP protocol suite, including protocols for routing,
addressing, and forwarding of packets, end-to-end transport mechanisms, and
standard protocols for file transfer, remote login, electronic mail and
network management has resulted in a wide spread interoperable networking
infrastructure. This in turn is creating tremendous opportunities for new
and innovative services to be provided over the network. An example of this
is the rapid evolution of the World-Wide Web in the last several years.

At the same time, the explosive growth in availability and use of the
Internet is creating new challenges. The existing infrastructure must be
extended if it is to continue to scale in numbers of users, offer bandwidth
guarantees, and support new classes of network applications. These trends
demand that we raise the level of common services and introduce new types
of higher-level services. Interoperable information management, search, and
retrieval mechanisms would create opportunities for new third-party
information services. Interoperable payment mechanisms would spur the
evolution of electronic commerce. Interoperable multimedia representation
formats and exchange protocols would spur a new generation of group support
tools. There are opportunities to create many such middleware components,
including caching and replication services, indexing services, remote
scripting environments, data typing and structuring primitives, and higher
level communication abstractions such as multicast and causal broadcast.

The purpose of this workshop is to explore this area of middleware
infrastructure. A specific objective is to identify and discuss those areas
of services that would sit "above" the traditional network protocols and
provide means for extending the the commonly available services on the
network to enclose higher layers of abstraction. A critical question to be
addressed is the balance between standardization and the exploration of new
concepts for middleware services. Thus, identifying the appropriate level
for standardization and interoperability is expected to be a major topic of
discussion at the workshop. We plan to discuss the vision for where
middleware is heading. For example, what kind of middleware support is
needed for the integration of databases, information spaces (such as WWW),
and personal communication tools. Finally, engineering issues in middleware
implementation will be of interest. Questions will be addressed such as how
to engineer the interface between middleware and TCP and how to take
advantage of underneath IP multicast support in caching and replication
services.

The workshop will be organized based on invited participants. A workshop of
approximately 75 people is anticipated. Brief (no more than three pages)
position papers are welcome to aid in the selection of workshop invitees.
These position papers are due no later than 30 April 1995. The workshop
itself will last 1.5 days immediately preceding the main SIGCOMM'95
conference ( the afternoon of August 28 and all day August 29th ).

Position papers should be sent by electronic mail in ascii to
        SC95WS@mercury.lcs.mit.edu. 
Questions should be addressed to the Workshop Program Chair, 
        Dr. Barry M. Leiner, BLeiner@arpa.mil.
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From: wmperry@spry.com
To: Larry Masinter <masinter@parc.xerox.com>
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Subject: Re: What all does html support?
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Larry Masinter writes:
> Yeeesh! No! Where's that rolled-up newspaper?
> 
> Rupesh Kapoor asked:
> >> Hi,
> >> 	It's amazing to find more syntax being supported by these browsers 
> >> each day. For instance, when I converted a MSWord document into text only 
> >> form today, was shocked to see netscape 1.0 correctly interpreting octal 
> >> codes like \225, \227 etc as bullets, regd & copyright symbols.
> >> 
> >> 	Can anyone supply me a pointer to the exact set of such symbols 
> >> supported by these browsers? Of particular interest are Mosaic & netscape 
> >> 1.{0,1}
> 
> And Bill Perry answered:
> >   This is generally a font issue - was this in windows netscape?  Try it
> > with netscape/X, and it might/might not work.  I hardcoded in a few
> > conversions for emacs-w3 based on the more popular ones people use from
> > windows fonts (quotes, cpoyright, registered, etc).
> 
> This isn't a _FONT_ issue, it is a _CHARACTER SET_ issue. HTML is
> normatively sent in ISO-8859-1, a character set that has several special
> characters in it. If you're building a browser that accepts HTML, you
> should do the best you can rendering ISO-8859-1 on the user's terminal,
> even if you don't have the right fonts. Similarly, if a server has
> documents written using something other than ISO-8859-1 (e.g., Macintosh
> character set) it should either _translate_ the document into the right
> character set or else _label_ it appropriately: content-type:
> text/html;charset="whatever"
> 

[...]

> (I'm getting on WMPerry's case because he's the implementor of the
> browser that _I_ use most frequently. :))

  I removed them for the next release.  Sheesh. :)

  What should the charset for the windows set be?

Content-type: text/html ; charset="broken-windows-shit"

  Seems good to me.

-Bill P.
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From: Torresan <torresan@jandc.mdn.com>
To: Steve H Rose <habib@world.std.com>, habib@world.std.com,
        www-talk@www10.w3.org
Date:          Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:42:19 EST
Subject:       Re: Running Netscape on top of Spry tcp/ip stack
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Steve H Rose <habib@world.std.com> wrote on Sun, 19 Mar 1995
 
> Has anyone had any luck running Netscape on top of Spry's tcp/ip stack -- 
> i.e. Internet in a Box?  I haven't been able to get it to work, and am 
> wondering if there is a conflict betwen the two, or a quick fix.
> 
Steve, I can run Netscape on Spry's tcp/ip with no problem. Have you 
checked the .ini file of your Netscape browser? The conflict may be 
there. Just a thought.
Cyberly,
Umberto Torresan
:-> <-: :-> <-:                           
                                   ++++      
Umberto Torresan                   + "I like to walk among the clouds 
Computer-Assisted Reporting        +  in my underpants." 
Journal and Courier                   Anonymous Italian poet         +
217 North 6th St.                     XX Century                     + 
Lafayette, IN 47901-1448                                         +++++ 
tel 800-456-3223
fax 317-420-5246
  
<-: :-> <-: :->

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From: uid#15033@dxal18.cern.ch
To: hallam@dxal18.cern.ch (USENET), documen@cam.org (Ozgen Eryasa),
        www-talk@w3.org
Reply-To: hallam@dxal18.cern.ch
Subject: Re: HTML parser in Yacc form???
Message-Id: <95Mar22.184801+0900_met.63660-2+26@dxal18.cern.ch>
Date: 	Wed, 22 Mar 1995 18:47:47 +0900
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In article <3k4hss$l06@stratus.CAM.ORG> you write:

|>	Hi all,
|>
|>	I was wondering if there exists a specification of HTML in yacc 
|>(or bnr) form. It has probably been done as constructing such a parser is 
|>way more easier in this way than with a traditional C subroutine.

Don't think about it. HTML is not an LR(1) grammar and so trying to use yacc
is only going to cause pain. The best way of parsing SGML is with a top down 
recursive descent parser. Try to use yacc and you will end up in all sorts of
troubles, especially with error reporting.

One of the problems with comp sci courses is that lecturers often make
silly statments such as bottom up parsing being somehow better than top down. 
This is not the case. Bottom up parsers can be made slightly faster but at
a disproportionate cost in terms of complexity. My view is that a language 
requiring a yacc parser is probably too complex in any case. Nobody uses
an LR(1) parser to parse LISP.

--
Phillip M. Hallam-Baker

Not Speaking for anyone else.
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From: aeldridg@whro-pbs.org (Addie Eldridge)
Subject: unsuscribe
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 16:24:56 -0500 (EST)
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Dear all:
I have inadvertently suscribed to 3 newsgroups on the www. How do I
unsuscribe? Adelaide    aeldridg@whro-pbs.org
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Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 23:19:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: Borre Ludvigsen <borrel@hiof.no>
Subject: Re: Need help with Home Page on Macintosh
To: DEBBERL@sunyulster.edu
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
In-Reply-To: <199503172157.QAA24515@ns.buffalo.edu>
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You might want to have a look at my server her at home 
(http://www.ludvigsen.hiof.no/) its MacHTTP running on a Mac IIsi (2 
MacIIsis actually, but that's another story). Most of your questions will 
be answered by using the "view source" facility in your browser.

- barre

On Fri, 17 Mar 1995 DEBBERL@sunyulster.edu wrote:

> I am looking for an experienced home page builder to answer 
> questions.  I am doing an internship for Ulster County Community 
> College and am new to the internet.  I am creating a home page for 
> our college.  I get stuck with some things at times and no one around 
> here really knows what they're doing.  So, it is my job to find out how 
> to do it.  I am working on a Macintosh system (which I'm not too 
> familiar with) and I am using Netscape as my WWW Browser.   If 
> anyone can answer my questions, I will be forever grateful. 
> 
>  Here at the college we only have access to listserv's, that means: no 
> newgroups or usenets, no bbs, no fun and games because it isn't 
> considered educational.  If anyone knows of any other good 
> resources that I can use for my project, feel free to drop me some 
> E-mail.
> 
> How would you write a pathname for a file in folder within folder within 
> folder on a Macintosh?
> 
> When creating links in an HTML document from the Home page to 
> another file, how can you get it (with a link or command) to return to 
> the home page.  I tried linking it to the home page file, but that didn't 
> work.  It said  "Unable to locate file."   It found the file the first time so 
> I can't understand why it won't find it the second time.
> 
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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 11:00:34 +0900
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
From: lai@eos.xx.rmit.edu.au (Shwu Mei Lai)
Subject: Printing Url name 
Content-Length: 283

Hi all,

Can somebody please tell me how do I print a document with it url name in
Netscape or Mosaic please?

Many thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Mei

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Shwu Mei Lai
Computer Centre
RMIT

email : mei@rmit.edu.au


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To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch, Gleason Sackman <net-happenings@ds.internic.net>
From: mandalek@hlc.net (Matthew L. Mandalek)
Subject: Federal Office Systems Expo (FOSE)
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!!_!!_Check it out_!!_!!

One More Day...


http://www.cybershow.com/fose/index.html

IRC:

irc.hlc.net

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To: www-talk@www0.cern.ch, Gleason Sackman <net-happenings@ds.internic.net>
From: mandalek@hlc.net (Matthew L. Mandalek)
Subject: Rodney Dangerfield
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!!_!!_Check it out_!!_!!

We are just now comming online....

http://www.rodney.com/rodney


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Subject: CGI PATH_TRANSLATED variable?
From: mwm@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 17:01:40 PST
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica
Message-Id: <19950322.753CA00.F742@contessa.phone.net>
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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I ran into this when I wrote user-cgi, and hand-waved my way through
it. The documentation on PATH_TRANSLATED on hoohoo is vague. The link
to CGI information on w3.www.org is to hoohoo.  Now I've got a server
working (you can watch it at http://www.phone.net/, and read the draft
docs at http://www.phone.net/aws/) and need to get things clarified.

Anyone want to try to explain what the "translate version of
PATH_INFO" should be? I know, it does any "virtual-to-physical"
mapping, but what does that MEAN? After all, any server I've run that
has cgi scripts has two mappings - one takes /cgi-bin to a set of
programs to be run (so, if I get /cgi-bin as the prefix of PATH_INFO,
I should run the program???), and one that takes other files to a
directory. Most of them have many such mappings.

The server I'm building allows multiple virtual-to-physical mappings.
One always returns a 204 result, no matter what the rest of the URL
is. Even worse, it allows for multiple mappings of the same URL. I.e.
- it will look in multiple trees for a file designated by a given URL,
and if it fails to find all of those it could wind up returning a 204
because it got passed to 204-returning map.

So, could someone please enlighten me as to what I should be doing
with PATH_TRANSLATED? Better yet, could someone give me an example of
it being used, or the justificatoin that went into it being included
in the spec?

	Thanx,
	<mike


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From: George Phillips <phillips@cs.ubc.ca>
To: mwm@contessa.phone.net (return)
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In-Reply-To: <19950322.753CA00.F742@contessa.phone.net>
Message-Id: <"11687*phillips@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS>
Subject: CGI PATH_TRANSLATED variable?
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If I recall correctly, it contains the actual path to the CGI program
and the PATH_INFO.   For example, if you have a URL:

	http://host.com/cgi-bin/prog/the/path

that results in the program

	/usr/web/cgi-bin/prog

being run with PATH_INFO set to "/the/path", then PATH_TRANSLATED is:

	/usr/web/cgi-bin/prog/the/path

Rob McCool had some pretty good sounding use for this, but I don't
remember what it was and a fairly quick perusal of the www-talk archives
didn't turn up much.

Disclaimer:  I never did bother putting this in my server so I may be way
wrong.

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Subject:  Re: CGI PATH_TRANSLATED variable?
In-Reply-To: <"11687*phillips@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS>
From: mwm@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 19:17:34 PST
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica
Message-Id: <19950322.745E510.115DF@contessa.phone.net>
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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> If I recall correctly, it contains the actual path to the CGI program
> and the PATH_INFO.   For example, if you have a URL:
> 
>         http://host.com/cgi-bin/prog/the/path
> 
> that results in the program
> 
>         /usr/web/cgi-bin/prog
> 
> being run with PATH_INFO set to "/the/path", then PATH_TRANSLATED is:
> 
>         /usr/web/cgi-bin/prog/the/path

Neither NetSite nor NCSA 1.3 behave that way. Given the above URL and
program, they both produce:

	/htdocs/the/path

Given that both servers are running with multiple trees, this seems
strange.

> Disclaimer:  I never did bother putting this in my server so I may be way
> wrong.

So there is a precedent for what I'm doing. Good.

	Thanx,
	<mike


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To: phillips@cs.ubc.ca
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: CGI PATH_TRANSLATED variable? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Mar 1995 21:06:15 +0500."
             <"11687*phillips@cs.ubc.ca"@MHS> 
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 19:43:28 -0800
From: Christian Mogensen <mogens@cs.stanford.edu>
Content-Length: 1074


Not quite.  If you have the serverroot at
  /var/web
and you have /htdocs and /cgi-bin  in the serverroot dir, and you have
two documents in /htdocs called  
  /foo.html and /baz/bar.html
then a request for /var/web/htdocs/foo.html looks like this
   http://yourserver/foo.html
and baz/bar.html is
   http://yourserver/baz/bar.html

Running through a gateway at
   http://yourserver/cgi-bin/script
the request using PATHINFO .html would be
   http://yourserver/cgi-bin/script/foo.html
      PATH_INFO= /foo.html
      PATH_TRANSLATED= /var/web/htdocs/foo.html

while
   http://yourserver/cgi-bin/script/baz/bar.html
      PATH_INFO= /baz/bar.html
      PATH_TRANSLATED= /var/web/htdocs/baz/bar.html

The advantage is that the server will do user-dir escaping for you, so
   http://yourserver/cgi-bin/script/~baz/bar.html
      PATH_INFO= /~baz/bar.html
      PATH_TRANSLATED= /u/baz/public_html/bar.html

This makes it easy to open the files and process them in the script.
Check  http://www-pcd.stanford.edu/mogens/script.html  for an example
of path_info use.

Christian
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Subject:  Re: CGI PATH_TRANSLATED variable?
In-Reply-To: <9503230343.AA23548@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>
From: mwm@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 95 20:55:25 PST
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica
Message-Id: <19950322.74AF250.12B31@contessa.phone.net>
To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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> Not quite.  If you have the serverroot at
>   /var/web
> and you have /htdocs and /cgi-bin  in the serverroot dir, and you have
> two documents in /htdocs called
>   /foo.html and /baz/bar.html
> then a request for /var/web/htdocs/foo.html looks like this
>    http://yourserver/foo.html
> and baz/bar.html is
>    http://yourserver/baz/bar.html

Yes, but note that this assumes that all your html documents live in
one tree. What if that's not the case? In particular, what if your
server could hand either of /var/web/htdocs/foo.html or
/var/web/htdocs-new/foo.html if someone tryed to GET
http://yourserver/foo.html?

> Running through a gateway at
>    http://yourserver/cgi-bin/script
> the request using PATHINFO .html would be
>    http://yourserver/cgi-bin/script/foo.html
>       PATH_INFO= /foo.html
>       PATH_TRANSLATED= /var/web/htdocs/foo.html

Should PATH_TRANSLATED be /var/web/{htdocs,htdocs-new}/foo.html for
the case I've got?

> The advantage is that the server will do user-dir escaping for you, so
>    http://yourserver/cgi-bin/script/~baz/bar.html
>       PATH_INFO= /~baz/bar.html
>       PATH_TRANSLATED= /u/baz/public_html/bar.html

This only applies if your server does user-dir escaping. Mine doesn't
(yet, anyway).

	Thanx,
	<mike


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To: www-talk@w3.org
From: dick@hypernet.com (dick fleming)
Subject: Metrostar Computer Center
Message-Id: <1416184065-2464222@hypernet.com>
Content-Length: 187

Metrostar Computer Center sells computer accessories and supplies (cables,
surge protectors, mice, etc. at reduced prices. Their home page is:

http://media1.hypernet.com/metrostar.html

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To: mwm@contessa.phone.net
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: Re: CGI PATH_TRANSLATED variable? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Mar 1995 00:07:14 +0500."
             <19950322.74AF250.12B31@contessa.phone.net> 
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 03:12:04 -0800
From: Christian Mogensen <mogens@cs.stanford.edu>
Content-Length: 755

>Yes, but note that this assumes that all your html documents live in
>one tree. What if that's not the case? In particular, what if your
>server could hand either of /var/web/htdocs/foo.html or
>/var/web/htdocs-new/foo.html if someone tryed to GET
>http://yourserver/foo.html?

What is the decision variable - in any case, use the doc that would have 
been returned had the document request been for http://server/foo.html
instead of being the cgi-script

>> the request using PATHINFO .html would be
>>    http://yourserver/cgi-bin/script/foo.html
>>       PATH_INFO= /foo.html
>>       PATH_TRANSLATED= /var/web/htdocs/foo.html
>
>Should PATH_TRANSLATED be /var/web/{htdocs,htdocs-new}/foo.html for
>the case I've got?

Yes.  

Christian "webhead <*>"
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From: IS91405@cc.itu.edu.tr
To: www-talk@w3.org
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please send me a text file for using www in a wide area.
                                                      have a good days...
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To: dick@hypernet.com
Subject: Re: Metrostar Computer Center
Cc: www-talk@www10.w3.org
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Is it just me or are we getting more and more advertisements on this list? I
can't keep up with the usenet groups anymore coz of total message overload,
I sure hope that this place isn't going to go the same way.

Derek
---
Derek Harding                                                   derek@pipex.net
Webmaster and Product & Software Developer                  +44 (0) 1223 250422
PIPEX (The Public IP Exchange Ltd)           http://www.pipex.net/people/derek/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genua had once controlled the river mouth and taxed its traffic in a way that
couldn't be called piracy because it was done by the city government.
        -- (Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad)
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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 13:08:10 +0100 (MET)
From: "Botond K. Szabo" <boti@ss10.numed.szote.u-szeged.hu>
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To: www-talk@www10.w3.org
Subject: search for a simple HTML viewer for MS Windows
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Hi there,

I need somebody who knows about a simple HTML viewer for Microsoft 
Windows, only for browsing multimedia data located on hard disk, not on 
the net. We are constructing a radiological educational multimedia 
database for our medical students. It will be accessible via Internet, 
but we would like to transfer all data to CD-ROM (of course in the same
format: HTML!). That's why I'm looking for a very simple public 
domain/free/shareware hypertext (HTML) viewer which can be enough browsing 
data on CD-ROM. This data will be public, too. 

Thank you for your help,

Botond K. Szabo
Department of Radiology 
Albert Szent-Gyorgyi Medical University 
Szeged, Hungary
URL: http://ss10.numed.szote.u-szeged.hu/staff/boti.html

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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 07:22:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Urb LeJeune <lejeune@acy.digex.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list <www-talk@www10.w3.org>
Subject: A Home for a Home Page
In-Reply-To: <m0rrb9e-00009hC@risc1>
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I am putting together a list of Internet service providers who furnish 
space on their WWW servers for non-commercial do-it-yourself home page 
publishers. The list would be for those people who would like to have 
their home page available on the net who have a provider not offering the 
service.


It would be nice if the service were free, but inexpensive is 
also good :-) I'm aware of the service at Ohio State University.

If you send information to me directly, I'll check it out and publish the 
complete list here, with details, here on this list at a later date.

Urb

Urb LeJeune lejeune@acy.digex.net   If you would like a free copy of my HTML 
subject oriented menu with over 300 entries automatically mailed to you, 
send e-mail to me with the subject NOT THE BODY: send urb-menu.htm
All lower case. I would appreciate your comments, bugs, and suggestion.
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From: frystyk@www5.cern.ch (Henrik Frystyk Nielsen)
Message-Id: <9503231433.AA08665@www5.cern.ch>
To: www-talk@w3.org, www-announce@w3.org
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT of Line Mode Browser 3.0
Reply-To: Henrik Frystyk Nielsen <frystyk@w3.org>
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                            *  *  *  *  *

  The CERN Line Mode Browser (www) is a character based World-Wide Web
  Browser. It is developed for use on dumb terminals and as a test tool
  for the CERN Common Code Library. It can be run in interactive mode,
  non-interactive mode and as a proxy client. In non-interactive mode it
  can be used as a powerful tool in CGI scripts for the CERN httpd.
  Furthermore it gives a variety of possibilities for data format
  conversion, filtering etc. It is primarily intended as a test-tool
  for quick access to the Web or used in batch jobs.

                            *  *  *  *  *

This is the official release of the CERN Line Mode Browser version
3.0. Together with the Library of Common Code it has now reached a
stable state where experiments can be done.

The Line Mode Browser is copyrighted by CERN and the copyright
statement is available in the source destribution file.

CERN Line Mode Browser 3.0 is available as source code:

        http://www.w3.org/pub/src/WWWLineMode_3.0.tar.Z
        ftp://www.w3.org/pub/www/src/WWWLineMode_3.0.tar.Z

Its is known to compile on Sun4, Solaris 2, HP Snake, NeXT, NeXT-386,
Decstation Ultrix, DEC OSF/1, SGI and AIX, but look also at the page
of supported platforms at:

        http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Library/User/Platform/Platform.html

Many pre-compiled binaries are available from

        http://www.w3.org/pub/bin/
        ftp://www.w3.org/pub/www/bin/

Documentation is available at 

        http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/LineMode/Status.html

The address to send email about CERN Line Mode Browser is:

        libwww@w3.org

This is the last release that I will make from CERN. I am going to
join the W3C team at MIT starting next week. See you later!

-- cheers --

Henrik

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CERN Line Mode Browser Release Notes

Very little has changed in the user interface, but it is now stable.

Pre-release 3.0pre2

* The browser is now much more stable and has the same amount of
  functionality as the previous version 2.15

Pre-release 3.0pre1

Most of the code is reorganized in order to adapt the application to
the multithreaded version of the Library. This means that the browser
	now has the following new features:

* Interruptible I/O - hit 'z RETURN' and the current load terminates

* You can at any time initiate a new load or any other command by
  simply start typing.

The Line Mode Browser has done it again!

Have fun!

--

 Henrik Frystyk Nielsen    H&kon W. Lie                Phill Hallam-Baker
 frystyk@w3.org		   howcome@dxcern.cern.ch      hallam@alws.cern.ch
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From: frystyk@www5.cern.ch (Henrik Frystyk Nielsen)
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To: www-talk@w3.org, www-announce@w3.org
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT of Library of Common Code 3.0
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			    *  *  *  *  *

  The CERN Common WWW Library is a general code base that can be used
  as a basis for WWW clients and servers. It contains code for accessing
  HTTP, FTP, Gopher, News, WAIS, Telnet servers, and the local file system. 
  Furthermore it provides modules for parsing, managing and presenting
  hypertext objects to the user and a wide spectra of generic programming
  utilities.

                            *  *  *  *  *

This release is the official 3.0 release of the Library of Common Code
from CERN. The release is the result of three previous pre-releases and
has now reached a stable state which is the reason for this
release. Thanks for the many contributions! The list of new features,
bug fixes etc. is very long, but most of it can be found in the
Programmer's Guide mentioned below. Some of the most importants features
is a multithreaded HTTP module and a initial port to Windows/Windows NT.

As usual, the CERN Line Mode Browser is also released in order to show
how the library can be used. This release is described in its own
announcement.

The Library is copyrighted by CERN and the copyright statement is
available in the source destribution file.

NOTE: The CERN server is NOT compatible with this version of the
Library, but must be linked with version 2.17 which is also available
from our source archives.

CERN Common Code Library 3.0 is available as source code from:

        http://www.w3.org/pub/src/WWWLibrary_3.0.tar.Z
        ftp://ftp.w3.org/pub/www/src/WWWLibrary_3.0.tar.Z

Its is known to compile on Sun4, Solaris 2, HP Snake, NeXT, NeXT-386,
Decstation Ultrix, DEC OSF/1, SGI, AIX, Windows 3.1 and but look also at
the page of supported platforms at:

        http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Library/User/Platform/Platform.html

Here you will find many hints and ideas about the specific platforms.
Windows people should look at this page for more information on the
Windows port.

Diffs and old versions are available at

        http://www.w3.org/pub/src/old
        ftp://ftp.w3.org/pub/www/src/old

        http://www.w3.org/pub/src/diffs
        ftp://ftp.w3.org/pub/www/src/diffs

The top-node for documentation on the library is available at 

        http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Library/Status.html and

Programmer's Guide is available at

        http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Library/User/Guide/Guide.html

The address to send email about the Library is (note the new domain name)

        libwww@w3.org

This is also the last release that I will make from CERN. I am going
to join the W3C team at MIT starting next week. Yo!

-- cheers --

Henrik

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CERN Library 3.0 Release Notes

Many of the modifications and new features are mentioned under the
pre-releases.

 * Changed all float to double in order get it consistent with the
   working floating type in C

 * Fixed problems with memory in HTML.c

 * Introduced definition of errno constants for WIN32,
   as WinSock doesn't define them using BSD notation

CERN Library 3.0 Prerelease 3, Mar 10 1995

New or Changed Features

 * All library include files which contains public information for
   applications are now contained in the single include file WWWLib.h
   which is the only one necessary PLEASE DON'T USE ANYTHING ELSE!!!

 * Changed TRACE messages so that the target is the macro TDEST and
   not stderr. This means that on platforms that don't support stderr,
   TRACE messages can be redirected to a local file.

 * Due to the PC Port some modules (definition and declaration files)
   have changed names so that the max length is 8 characters:

	s?HTFWriter?HTFWrite?g
	s?HTHistory?HTHist.h?g
	s?HTEPtoClient?HTEPtoCl?g
	s?HTDescript?HTDescpt?g
	s?HTExtParse?HTXParse?g
	s?HTErrorMsg?HTErrMsg?g

 * Move EnableFrom to HTAccess module. This variable determines
   whether the HTTP header From: should be generated. The default
   value is off

 * Sockets are no longer assumed to be small, non-negative integers,
   but uses macros. This should ensure portability to Windows NT.

 * Introduced socerrno and errno so that WinSock can use its own
   definition whereas `local' errno can still use the well-known version.

 * Introduced error_stream as field in HTRequest structure. All
   information contained in HTTP responses which don't naturally contain
   a body entity, for example redirection codes (3xx) and client error
   codes (4xx) will be put down this stream so that it can be put into a
   debug window.

 * HTNewsHost is now a local variable in the HTNews module. Use
   HTGetNewsHost and HTSetNewsHost to set and get the current value. The
   news module will be rewritten in the near future as it has many
   problems.

 * The HTTP module understands all HTTP/1.0 return codes and is more solid

 * Many portability problems has been solved and optimized. Most
   system dependent things are now put into
   tcp module

 * Interface to CSO name server made nicer - generates correct HTML

Bug Fixes

 * file:// no more tries ftp:// if host=localhost

 * Improved proxy support and fixed bug when reloading a document from a proxy

 * Bug fixed in HTGetHostName() which didn't include a dot <.>;

 * Bug fixed if UserID/passwd was not correct and don't want to retry

 * HTErrorAdd and HTErrorSysAdd no always return HT_ERROR

 * Fixed bug in HTGetDomainName when no domain name is present at all

 * Add output_flush to request structure

 * Uses IOCTL as a macro now - not fcntl

Library 3.0 Prerelease 2, Dec 2 1994

 * Introduced memory cleanups from Eric Sink into HTLibTerminate()

 * Now the client can provocate a call to HTEventRequestTerminate()
   even when the request never enters the eventloop. This is necesary so
   that the client can cancel busy icons, spinning globes etc.

 * Introduced EVENT_TERM as return code for the HTEventHandler function

 * HTEventHandler() now has a double pointer so that the request
   pointer can be modified from the client

 * Fixed bug in HTSearch() and HTLoadRelative() where wrong return
   code was returned (BOOL instead of int)

 * Introduced BlockingIO field in the request structure to override
   the the mode registered in the protocol structure. This can be used as
   an easy way to make blocking I/O

Library 3.0 Prerelease 1, Nov 26 1994

New and Changed Features

 * Introduced the function HTLibInit() and HTLibTerminate() which
   MUST be called when the application starts up and terminates.

 * Introduced the modules HTThread and HTEvent. HTEvent is the client
   interface when using multithreaded functionality and HTThread is the
   internal socket management

 * All __STDC__ defines now concentrated to HTUtils.html where it is
   called _STANDARD_CODE_ so that _cplusplus also handles this

 * `new' and `template' not used a names anymore (confuses C++)

 * Removed from field in HTRequest structure. This is now handled by
   the functions HTGetMailAddres and HTSetMailAddress and the flag
   HTEnableFrom in the HTTP