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Draft minutes of TAG teleconference of 7 February 2013

From: Noah Mendelsohn <nrm@arcanedomain.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:14:35 -0500
Message-ID: <511B132B.9020103@arcanedomain.com>
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
Draft minutes of the TAG teleconference of 7 February 2013 are now 
available at [1] and in text-only form below.

Noah

[1] www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/02/07-minutes

=========================================================

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                W3C TAG Teleconference of 7 February 2013

07 Feb 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/02/07-agenda

Attendees

    Present
           Noah Mendelsohn, Henry Thompson, Yves Lafon, Jeff Jaffe,
           Alex Russell, Marcos Caceres

    Regrets
           Jeni Tennison, Tim Berners-Lee, Larry Masinter

    Chair
           Noah Mendelsohn

    Scribe
           Noah Mendelsohn

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Headlights discussion
          2. [5]Admin
          3. [6]Design of APIs for Web Apps
          4. [7]March F2F Ideas
      * [8]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

Headlights discussion

    <wycats> jeff: can you explain Headlights a bit for us?

    We have [9]e-mail from Jeff Jaffe to the TAG soliciting TAG
    participation in headlights 2013 effort.

       [9] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Feb/0000.html

    <jeff>
    [10]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2013Jan
    Mar/0018.html

      [10] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2013JanMar/0018.html

    [11]http://www.w3.org/wiki/Headlights2013

      [11] http://www.w3.org/wiki/Headlights2013

    <ht>
    [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Feb/0000.ht
    ml

      [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2013Feb/0000.html

    <ht> Note that Alex has lost audio

    Jeff Jaffe is with us for this section

    <slightlyoff> only a bit...apologies

    <slightlyoff> yes

    <slightlyoff> my fault...bad hardware

    JJ: Summarizes goals of headlights. Basically to discover
    things W3C should be doing better, or at least that might need
    better attention.

    AR: What's the form of the work product? Working group.

    JJ: That decision comes later. We're identifying gaps.
    ... We're also focusing especially on high level issues.

    <slightlyoff> I'd like to understand how we're going to address
    things that are OS-limited...in many ways it's a strategic
    tension...will we become an advocacy org around this?

    <wycats> am I supposed to do something if I'm on the queue?

    NM: TAG is in a time of transition...we're just getting to know
    each other.

    JJ: Understood, either mode of participation is good

    JJ: Having people participate as individuals is good too.

    <ht> Alex - So JJ did highlight the "Closing the Gap with
    Native" project

    <ht> Which is where I would expect the OS-limited issue to
    arise

    <slightlyoff> same...I think I am deeply interested in native
    vs. web and performance

    YK: I'm interested for native vs. Web especially.

    NM: Great. Anyone else interested in helping?
    ... Also, please alert people you may know who aren't on the
    TAG but who may want to help the W3C identify priorities for
    the coming year.

    JJ: One aspect of the exercise is to prioritize things that
    should turn into community groups, and/or transition fro CG to
    WG.
    ... Sometimes stopping at CG is good. I want task forces to
    have autonomy to think through issues.

    <Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask how this all rolls up

    <slightlyoff> thanks for rephrasing me more cogently =)

    NM: What's the rollup mechanism when this exercise completes?

    JJ: AC meeting is June 9 in Tokyo
    ... There will probably be more good proposals than
    resources...so June gives us member feedback at AC
    ... July is F2F meeting of W3 management team...that's where
    where we try to do resource allocations.

    <wycats> I agree that a philosophical discussion is not very
    useful, but the problem is both political and technical

    <slightlyoff> I'm in, but can't make the AC meeting.

    <wycats> there are many improvements to the web platform that
    everyone agrees would be a good idea, but which are blocked on
    Mobile Safari or Chrome for Android

    <wycats> so it's not purely a technical question

    <ht> Not formally as TAG -- that's overkill, IMO

    NM: Are we really depending on the TF's to identify the right
    things to do? I think we've often identified e.g. Web vs.
    native, but have never either a) done the right things to
    realistically address the gap or b) netted out reasons why the
    Web will not likely be competitve, and we why should not waste
    or energy on the impossible/unlikely.

    JJ: To contribute, write me or group leaders. I'm fine with
    participation as individuals or from the TAG.
    ... I agree with IRC discussion, it's a combnination technical,
    political(? scribe isn't sure he got this right) and business
    model problem
    ... Also HTML5 performance

    <slightlyoff> is anyone speaking?

    <ht> AR: YC is interested in participating, so am I, maybe

    <ht> ... What would it mean for us to participate as the TAG?

    <ht> ... We are sort of an advocacy shop in W3C -- would that
    be OK?

    <ht> ... There are particular platform-related issues, where
    vendors have made non-technical decisions

    AR?: Platform vendors aren't opening certain things to
    web...don't want to push toward dead ends.

    <Zakim> ht, you wanted to argue against (starting as)
    TAG-official involvement

    NM: Logistical proposal...we won't appoint formal TAG reps at
    this point, BUT.... it would be very welcome for folks like
    Yehuda or the Alex to come to the TAG and say: "I would welcome
    the TAG's insight on this (e.g. web native). Let's discuss.
    Maybe or maybe not as a byproduct of such discussion, the TAG
    decides to take a formal position, or ask someone to represent
    us formally.

    <slightlyoff> no objection

Admin

    RESOLUTION: [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes
    are approved

      [13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes

Design of APIs for Web Apps

    ACTION-780?

    <trackbot> ACTION-780 -- Ashok Malhotra to draft note to PING
    asking them to pick up our incomplete work on privacy by design
    by APIs -- due 2013-01-31 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/780

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/780

    <ht> Send it

    [15]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2013Jan/0044.html

      [15] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2013Jan/0044.html

    NM: OK to send the note?

    <slightlyoff> hrm

    close ACTION-780

    <trackbot> Closed ACTION-780 Draft note to PING asking them to
    pick up our incomplete work on privacy by design by APIs.

    <ht> If you think it needs an explanation of why we are not
    taking it forward, add that

    <scribe> ACTION: Noah to send
    [16]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2013Jan/0044.html
    to PING

      [16] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2013Jan/0044.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-783 - Send
    [17]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2013Jan/0044.html
    to PING [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2013-02-14].

      [17] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2013Jan/0044.html

    HT: Could add explanation that we're ducking due to changing
    membership or lack resource

    <slightlyoff> I'm fine with the draft

    NM: I'll try to make a small change and send

    <ht> I am not prepared to drive a DOM/XML discussion forward

    <ht> today

March F2F Ideas

    YK: I don't want to speak for Alex, but would like to put
    "layering" on the agenda. We need to get into more specifics.

    <slightlyoff> it's a situation where we know how to do it but
    need a small target to use as a demonstration

    <slightlyoff> (FWIW, we have done this in other areas, e.g.
    document.register())

    <slightlyoff> Yves: I'm actively working on offline in another
    area...will loop you in

    <slightlyoff> I'll take the AI

    <slightlyoff> yep

    <scribe> ACTION: Alex with help from Yehuda to frame F2F
    discussion of layering - Due 2013-03-04

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-784 - with help from Yehuda to frame
    F2F discussion of layering [on Alex Russell - due 2013-03-04].

    <ht> Just to repeat that some combination of Jeni, HST and JAR
    will try to take the URI documentation/HTTPRange14/Issue57
    nexus forward

    NM: Just layering?

    MC: We need to find better ways to communite with developers
    ... More ideas about involving other participants

    <ht> If LM were here, he'd say the REC-track is the way we get
    review, but I'm not sure that's enough. . .

    <scribe> ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of developer
    involvement/outreach at F2F - Due 2013-03-04

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-785 - schedule discussion of
    developer involvement/outreach at F2F [on Noah Mendelsohn - due
    2013-03-04].

    NM: Is this really the only technical issue?

    AR: To some degree, I see layering as a prereq to understanding
    where we want to go on e.g. Web native.

    MM: Example?

    AR: We don't have a reasonable stack of abstractions around
    appcache.
    ... Therefore, there are things that are like applications that
    are harder to build that you like.

    <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say you've shown that some things
    are tied, not that others aren't

    <ht> I wonder if this is another perspective on the "We're
    trying to turn the browser into a universal delivery platform,
    by bolting stuff onto something that wasn't designed for that,
    and the result is . . . messy" problem. . .

    <slightlyoff> I have a proposal for an answer: the manifest
    destiny of the web platform is to provide safe access to all
    available hardware

    NM: Gives example of things that need not wait for layering

    AR: Agree, so happens the ones that interest me most follow
    from layering, but yes, we should have web/native on the
    agenda.

    <wycats> it seems good to have a web vs. native topic on the
    agenda if Alex and I are going to participate in the Headlights
    Task Force

    <ht> Otherwise known as "If we wanted to go there, we would
    have been much better off not to have started from here"

    <wycats> different to what?

    AR: Proposing a work item: interested in the TAG producing
    opnionated ide for developers to Javascript IDL. Walk through
    producing a Web-friendly Javascript API.

    MC: Robin Berjon put together Javascript API cookbook.
    Different?

    AR: Didn't know of that.

    MC: Some work was done.

    <wycats> [18]http://www.w3.org/TR/api-design/ ?

      [18] http://www.w3.org/TR/api-design/

    <wycats> this does not look similar to what I think Alex has in
    mind

    MC: I was concerned that we could codify bad practice.

    <slightlyoff> wycats: agreed...this is sort of differetn

    <ht> Separate spec. vs distributed is a very interesting point

    <slightlyoff> I don't think I've got an opinion about where
    such a guide would live

    <wycats> "We had talked of Yehuda writing this section. I will
    see if I can hunt him down." nobody ever contacted me ;)

    MC: I find that I benefit most from guidance in core
    specs...maybe we should try to improve them.

    NM: Sooner or later, we'll need to figure out what the TAG's
    role is. In this case, are there architectural implications for
    the big-pictue characteristics of the Web (security,
    evolvability, etc.)? If not, then maybe or role is to encourage
    other WGs to do their job better. Certainly OK to have some TAG
    discussion...sooner or later we need to sort out our role.

    AR: This is reminding me that Robin's document seemed a bit too
    tactical.

    MC: I'm interested.

    <slightlyoff> I will drive it if you like

    <slightlyoff> thank you!

    <slightlyoff> that works for me

    <scribe> ACTION: Marcos, with help from Alex, to frame
    discussion of Javascript API Design Issues for F2F - Due
    2013-03-04

    <trackbot> Error finding 'Marcos,'. You can review and register
    nicknames at
    <[19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/users>.

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/users>.

    <scribe> ACTION: Marcos to frame, with help from Alex,
    discussion of Javascript API Design Issues for F2F - Due
    2013-03-04

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-786 - frame, with help from Alex,
    discussion of Javascript API Design Issues for F2F [on Marcos
    Caceres - due 2013-03-04].

    <slightlyoff> polyglot?

    <wycats> not from me

    ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Alex with help from Yehuda to frame F2F
    discussion of layering - Due 2013-03-04
    [NEW] ACTION: Marcos to frame, with help from Alex, discussion
    of Javascript API Design Issues for F2F - Due 2013-03-04
    [NEW] ACTION: Marcos, with help from Alex, to frame discussion
    of Javascript API Design Issues for F2F - Due 2013-03-04
    [NEW] ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of developer
    involvement/outreach at F2F - Due 2013-03-04
    [NEW] ACTION: Noah to send
    https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2013Jan/0044.html to
    PING

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


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