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Draft TAG minutes from telcon of 2012-08-02

From: Yves Lafon <ylafon@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 09:41:04 -0400 (EDT)
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1209070939100.28938@wnl.j3.bet>
Available at

     http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/08/02-minutes.html

and below in text format.

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

    This is version has not been approved as a true record of the
    TAG's meeting and there is some risk that individual TAG
    members have been misquoted. This transcript should typically
    not be quoted, except as necessary to arrange for correction
    and approval.

               Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

02 Aug 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Jul/0063.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-tagmem-irc

Attendees

    Present
           masinter, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, plinss

    Regrets
           Robin

    Chair
           Larry

    Scribe
           Yves

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Approval of minutes
          2. [6]Administrative items
          3. [7](deepLinking-25): Can publication of hyperlinks
             constitute copyright infringment?
          4. [8]Action items
      * [9]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <jar> [10]http://www.w3.org/2002/07/08-tag-summary#quorum

      [10] http://www.w3.org/2002/07/08-tag-summary#quorum

approval of minutes

    did people review the minutes?

    => approval of minutes postponed

administrative items

    next call is aug 9

(deepLinking-25): Can publication of hyperlinks constitute copyright
infringment?

    <Larry:> Let's go through the items Ashok raised

    Ashok: should we refer to the governanc doc? (from the P&L
    one), response was "not yet"

    Larry: got mixed feedback on the governance document

    <Larry:> got feedback to use Tussles in Cyberspace

    ashok: I started to read that doc, not enough yet

    <masinter>
    [11]http://groups.csail.mit.edu/ana/Publications/PubPDFs/Tussle
    %20in%20Cyberspace%20Defining%20Tomorrows%20Internet%202005's%2
    0Internet.pdf

      [11] http://groups.csail.mit.edu/ana/Publications/PubPDFs/Tussle%20in%20Cyberspace%20Defining%20Tomorrows%20Internet%202005's%20Internet.pdf

    <masinter> feedback is that the "Tussle" paper is a better
    foundatin to start with

    <masinter> and that governanceFramework should _start_ with
    Tussle, and use it as the basis for a (shorter) framework

    <masinter> the feedback is that we should start with that, and
    then talk specifically about the 'tussle' in the web

    <Ashok> I will review the Tussle paper

    <jar> "accommodating this tussle is crucial to the evolution of
    the network’s technical architecture"

    ashok: proxies that, without user interaction, are doing
    something with data. Some will act if there are policies
    allowing to process the data. Those statements are not
    contradictory, but are they sending different messages?

    jar: one is judgment, the other one is decisions made by a
    machine

    <jar> judgment is the word I use to mean something a human has
    to do. computers don't judge

    ashok: there are no machine-readable policy languages for
    intermediaries

    <masinter> jar: CCRel is an example

    <jar> e.g. [12]http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC_REL

      [12] http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC_REL

    <masinter> [13]http://www.w3.org/Submission/ccREL/

      [13] http://www.w3.org/Submission/ccREL/

    <masinter> should CCRel be a citation?

    <jar> also
    [14]http://www.w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines/#sec-proxy-use-of-no-tra
    nsform

      [14] http://www.w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines/#sec-proxy-use-of-no-transform

    <masinter> I don't mind details

    <masinter> jar, could you give an example of something you're
    uncomfortable with and how you might rewrite it?

    jar: the idea that the information is owned is not true

    <masinter> jar: Could you ground this in a specific example

    jar: the internet archive changed its policy to care about
    robots.txt It was a disservice to the public, and they were not
    required by law

    not sure the report should go into arguments like that

    <masinter> jar, where does the report get into something that
    it shouldn't?

    note that the internet archive is protected by library
    exemption

    <jar> Proxies should comply with instructions from origin
    servers that describe whether pages may be copied and
    transformed

    <masinter> you don't think it is a best practice that proxies
    comply with instrucctions?

    <masinter> under what circumstance is it not a 'best practice'?

    <masinter> give an example, just one example, when it isn't a
    'best practice'

    <masinter> so if it is a caching proxy?

    <masinter> proxies that are advertised as to not transform
    content should not transform content?

    <masinter> Jonathan, do you think the BPs are hopelessly
    unfixable?

    jar: not sure about the targeted audience of this document, so
    I'm confused by this

    <masinter> I'm trying to distinguish between "I don't know who
    this is useful for?" and "I think the advice it gives is wrong
    and not fixable"

    <masinter> I don't think "interesting" is a consensus opinion

    <masinter> does anyone else have an opinion,

    <masinter> Peter, Yves?

    Yves: it would be good to stay strictly in the description of
    how linking work

    so getting rid of most of the BPs

    Peter: I thought we made the decision to do so, it seems that
    we are back again to mixing those

    <masinter> cut away more of the policy

    <scribe> ACTION: Larry and Ashok to remove the best practises
    parts of the P&L document [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-tagmem-minutes.html#action01]

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-tagmem-minutes.html#action01

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-731 - And Ashok to remove the best
    practises parts of the P&L document [on Larry Masinter - due
    2012-08-09].

    <masinter> we could add a reference to 'Tussle' in intro, too

    Ashok: it there a way for people to forbid linking?

    jar: yes, don't provide a URL

    <masinter> temporary URLs, or content in scripting

    <masinter> should we talk about those things in this document?

    <masinter> ways in which people circumvent ability to deep
    link?

    <masinter> feedback from wendy and thomas were to reference
    Tussle

    jar: the general question is "do you want a legal tool when
    there are technical tools to do what you want to achieve"
    (forbiding linking)

Action items

    <masinter> action-679?

    <trackbot> ACTION-679 -- Yves Lafon to check how Appcache
    should fit into Ashok's storage document -- due 2012-05-01 --
    OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/679

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/679

    <masinter> Yves and Robin convinced Ashok Appcache is not part
    of local storage

    <masinter> close action-679

    <trackbot> ACTION-679 check how Appcache should fit into
    Ashok's storage document closed

    <masinter> action-404?

    <trackbot> ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27
    rel-ownership -- due 2012-06-05 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404

    <masinter> should postpone

    <masinter> action-404 due in 2 months?

    <trackbot> ACTION-404 Track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership due
    date now in 2 months?

    <masinter> action-659?

    <trackbot> ACTION-659 -- Yves Lafon to track IETF efforts on
    HTTP 2.0 & SPDY -- due 2012-07-31 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/659

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/659

    <masinter> action-659 due 2012-08-05

    <trackbot> ACTION-659 Track IETF efforts on HTTP 2.0 & SPDY due
    date now 2012-08-05

    <masinter> action-617?

    <trackbot> ACTION-617 -- Yves Lafon to work with Noah to take
    [19]http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ off
    the Rec track -- due 2012-06-01 -- OPEN

      [19] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/

    <trackbot>
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/617

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/617

    <masinter> peter closed some and changed dates on others

    <masinter> action-712?

    <trackbot> ACTION-712 -- Peter Linss to help us decide whether
    to have F2F session on i18n and comparison Due 2012-05-29 --
    due 2012-05-31 -- CLOSED

    <trackbot>
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/712

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/712

    <masinter> action-606?

    <trackbot> ACTION-606 -- Peter Linss to invite I18N and other
    concerned groups to provide written technical input as prep to
    discussion with the TAG regarding unicode normalization -- due
    2012-06-12 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/606

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/606

    <masinter> i've heard from Addison recently

    <masinter> action-727?

    <trackbot> ACTION-727 -- Ashok Malhotra to with help from JAR
    and Larry to work on a plan for taking a slightly stronger
    version of the Copyright and Linking draft forward -- due
    2012-07-17 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/727

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/727

    <masinter> this is overtaken, we should close it

    <masinter> close action-727

    <trackbot> ACTION-727 With help from JAR and Larry to work on a
    plan for taking a slightly stronger version of the Copyright
    and Linking draft forward closed

    <masinter> action-717?

    <trackbot> ACTION-717 -- Ashok Malhotra to propose outline for
    possible TAG document (finding or rec) on architectural issues
    relating to storage sync, linked data, etc. Due 2012-07-15 --
    due 2012-06-20 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/717

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/717

    <masinter> action-717 due 2012-09-01

    <trackbot> ACTION-717 Propose outline for possible TAG document
    (finding or rec) on architectural issues relating to storage
    sync, linked data, etc. Due 2012-07-15 due date now 2012-09-01

    <masinter> action-719?

    <trackbot> ACTION-719 -- Larry Masinter to reply to Hannes
    pointing to the minutes, summarizing the discussion, and asking
    him if he has any more specific questions. -- due 2012-06-20 --
    OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/719

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/719

    <masinter> i talked to hannes Tuesday night; he said he would
    get back to us

    <masinter> action-722?

    <trackbot> ACTION-722 -- Jonathan Rees to review 'publishing
    and linking' due -- due 2012-08-06 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/722

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/722

    <masinter> action-722 due in 1 week

    <trackbot> ACTION-722 Review 'publishing and linking' due due
    date now in 1 week

    <masinter> review it after there's a new version of it

    <masinter> i think JAR says he'll review P&L after Ashok &
    Larry update it this week

    <masinter> Ashok, you and I are meeting monday to update P&L,
    and JAR should review after it

    <masinter> Ashok, i'll make a pass on cutting out the BPs if
    you like

    <jar> Instead of this action I propose looking at the Tussle
    paper first

    <masinter> close action-722

    <trackbot> ACTION-722 Review 'publishing and linking' due
    closed

    <masinter> action-726?

    <trackbot> ACTION-726 -- Jonathan Rees to make a list of
    questions to which webarch and the findings suggest answers to,
    as input to possible 'study design' and/or communication to
    chairs etc. -- due 2012-08-14 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/726

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/726

    <masinter> action-728?

    <trackbot> ACTION-728 -- Noah Mendelsohn to find editor for
    copyright and linking after group reviews Ashok's proposals on
    stronger messages -- due 2012-07-12 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/728

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/728

    <masinter> close action-728

    <trackbot> ACTION-728 find editor for copyright and linking
    after group reviews Ashok's proposals on stronger messages
    closed

    <masinter> action-707?

    <trackbot> ACTION-707 -- Henry Thompson to keep an eye on
    [29]http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-appsawg-media-type-suffix
    -regs-00.txt and relation to RFC 3023bis -- due 2012-06-05 --
    OPEN

      [29] http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-appsawg-media-type-suffix-regs-00.txt

    <trackbot>
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/707

      [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/707

    <masinter> there's news on this, this week, on the mailing list

    <masinter> action-635?

    <trackbot> ACTION-635 -- Henry Thompson to update product page
    for Frag IDS and Mime types, to include realistic goals and
    dates -- due 2012-06-01 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/635

      [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/635

    <masinter> the product page is ok but the link from the TAG
    products overview is wrong

    AOB?

    ADJOURNED

    thank you Larry for chairing

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Larry and Ashok to remove the best practises
    parts of the P&L document [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-tagmem-minutes.html#action01]

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-tagmem-minutes.html#action01

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [33]scribe.perl version
     1.136 ([34]CVS log)
     $Date: 2012/09/07 13:23:12 $

      [33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [34] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/



-- 
Baroula que barouleras, au tiéu toujou t'entourneras.

         ~~Yves
Received on Friday, 7 September 2012 13:41:06 GMT

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