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Draft minutes from 2012-11-08

From: Jeni Tennison <jeni@jenitennison.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 23:22:08 +0000
Message-Id: <7DA64B6F-8E80-4413-935B-4C1B95E9DC0D@jenitennison.com>
To: "www-tag@w3.org List" <www-tag@w3.org>
Hi,

Draft minutes from the TAG telcon of 2012-11-08 are now available at

  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes

and in text form below.

My apologies for the delay (and thanks to HT for providing the log).

Cheers,

Jeni

----
   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

              Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

08 Nov 2012

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Noah, Jeni, Jonathan, Henry, Yves, Peter

   Regrets

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Jeni Tennison

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]Approval of minutes
         3. [7]Administrative Items
         4. [8]Close pending Actions without discussion
         5. [9]TPAC
         6. [10]Issue list for Jeff Jaffe
         7. [11]TAG Issues List
         8. [12]Face-to-face
     * [13]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 08 November 2012

   <scribe> ScribeNick: JeniT

   <scribe> Scribe: Jeni Tennison

Convene

Approval of minutes

   noah: we paused to let Jonathan have a look at them

   jar: I haven't given them a thorough going over

   <Noah> F2F minutes:
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda

   ht: when I last looked, there were several lines that needed
   looking at

   [we look]

   <Noah> E.g. noah: if you were to come across shorthand
   properties ... not proven Noah, scribe needs help here

   <Noah> I could just leave that as a true record of the scribe's
   uncertainty

   <jar> [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/08-minutes#item02

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/08-minutes#item02

   ht: the four places that need attention are for Noah, TimBL and
   Ashok
   ... Larry asked me to clean this up; all these notes are from
   me
   ... I'm happy to approve if the red lines were replaced by
   something in black that says [scribe needs direction]

   <Noah> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda

   <jar> Change "X, scribe needs help here" to "[scribe missed]"

   RESOLUTION: Approve minutes at
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda as a true
   record, subject to ht changing red text as appropriate

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/07-agenda

   <Noah> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/25-minutes

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/25-minutes

   RESOLUTION: Approve minutes at
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/25-minutes

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/25-minutes

   <Noah> ACTION: Noah to take draft warnings off F2F minutes
   [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-765 - Take draft warnings off F2F
   minutes [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-11-15].

   <ht> HST has checked 2012/10/08-minutes.html back in with
   scribe-not-sure notes, so I'm happy

Administrative Items

   <Noah>
   [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments
   /2010OctDec/0001.html

     [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2010OctDec/0001.html

   noah: a typo in the Architecture of the World Wide Web

   jar: I can't see what's wrong with the text that's there

   <Noah> Original: When two specifications are orthogonal, one
   may change one without

   <Noah> requiring...

   jar: I didn't think the proposed text was an improvement

   <Noah> I read that as "When two specifications are orthogonal,
   one may change one of the specifications without

   <Noah> requiring..."

   noah: I can't remember if we have a bug list for webarch

   ht: there are a number of entries in the errata
   ... I think it's worth entering in the errata list
   ... I think it probably is a typo

   noah: I read it just fine

   ht: using 'one' as a generic subject instead of 'you may change
   one'

   <jar> interference between two referents of "one"

   ht: I think Ian meant 'one may change without changing the
   other'
   ... this is a definition of orthogonality

   noah: we could say 'not worth changing' or task someone to
   create an entry for the errata

   jar: there's no question about meaning here

   yves: it's clear to non-negative speakers, so I don't see the
   point of changing it

   <Noah> "When two specifications are orthogonal, one may change
   one without

   <Noah> requiring..."

   <jar> a specification cannot require anything of anything

   "When two specifications are orthogonal, one may change one
   without requiring changes to the other, even if one has
   dependencies on the other."

   <Noah> "When two specifications are orthogonal, one may change
   one without requiring changes to the other, even if one has
   dependencies on the other"

   timbl: it would be easier in French

   <timbl> on .. un .. autre

   <jar> one *may be changed*

   no

   <jar> it would be possible to improve the prose, but doing so
   is not important right now ...

   jenit: we should not change it

   timbl: this isn't an editable spec

   noah: we have errata

   <Noah> . ACTION: Noah to respond to e-mail on AWWW "typo"
   saying TAG did not agree that a change was needed

   <Noah> ACTION: Noah to respond to e-mail on AWWW "typo" saying
   TAG did not agree that a change was needed [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-766 - Respond to e-mail on AWWW
   "typo" saying TAG did not agree that a change was needed [on
   Noah Mendelsohn - due 2012-11-15].

Close pending Actions without discussion

   <Noah> ACTION-750?

   <trackbot> ACTION-750 -- Henry Thompson to contact Ian about
   TAG participation in TPAC -- see minutes of 8 Oct late
   afternoon -- due 2012-10-30 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/750

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/750

   <Noah> close ACTION-750

   <trackbot> ACTION-750 Contact Ian about TAG participation in
   TPAC -- see minutes of 8 Oct late afternoon closed

TPAC

   noah: people from TPAC should let us know what happened

   ht: I did 5 mins at AC meeting Tuesday evening
   ... slides are linked from AC meeting, which is member only
   ... Jeni did her 3 mins during lightning talks

   noah: were people interested in the election?

   jenit: yes, there were some people who have decided to run

   noah: any other TPAC news?

   ht: we had a table at lunch with the AB, including Jeff but not
   Tim
   ... we didn't talk about elections
   ... the most concrete thing was interest in co-locating in the
   coming year and sharing half a day

   noah: did anyone have ideas about logistics?

   ht: not particularly

   jenit: we talked about trying to get the AB to vote on
   priorities for the TAG

   <ht> HST TPAC slides [member only]:
   [24]https://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/ht-tpac2012-tag.html

     [24] https://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/ht-tpac2012-tag.html

   JT TPAC slides:
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/jt-tpac2012-plenary/assets/fal
   lback/index.html

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2012/Talks/jt-tpac2012-plenary/assets/fallback/index.html

   ht: one technical topic that was busy in the corridors
   ... the state of documents about URLs, and where they're going
   to be taken forward
   ... and how W3C/IETF/WHATWG relations should be managed

Issue list for Jeff Jaffe

   <Noah> Discussion from London:
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/08-minutes#item04

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/10/08-minutes#item04

   <Noah> Brainstorming: HTTP 2.0, (LM says benchmarking,
   performance)

   <Noah> URL issues

   <Noah> Larry said Web security in crisis

   <Noah> Ashok mentioned cloud and security

   <Noah> ACTION-753?

   <trackbot> ACTION-753 -- Larry Masinter to do first draft of
   technical issues list for Jeff -- due 2012-10-22 -- OPEN

   <trackbot>
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/753

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/753

   noah: does anyone want to add anything, for Larry's benefit?

   <Noah> silence

   <Noah> ACTION-692?

   <trackbot> ACTION-692 -- Noah Mendelsohn to consider JAR's
   april request to discuss, for 10 mins, issues list at oct f2f
   -- due 2012-09-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot>
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/692

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/692

TAG Issues List

   noah: wanted to give jar a chance to express concerns about
   this

   jar: this actions is related to the objectives matrix
   ... I'm happy to let it get absorbed into what happens with the
   matrix
   ... I thought it was a cool thing and I hoped someone else
   would do something with it

   noah: there's a question about how to apply it

   jar: I wanted to push the work on applications and offline
   storage and that kind of thing
   ... I wanted it to be driven by objectives considerations, not
   just people asking what we should do here
   ... the question being what should we do in general

   noah: we could spend some time looking at the issues list now

   jar: the matrix has links to most of the open issues

   <Noah> ACTION-692?

   <trackbot> ACTION-692 -- Noah Mendelsohn to consider JAR's
   april request to discuss, for 10 mins, issues list at oct f2f
   -- due 2012-09-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot>
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/692

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/692

   <Noah> close ACTION-692

   <trackbot> ACTION-692 consider JAR's april request to discuss,
   for 10 mins, issues list at oct f2f closed

   <Noah> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/open

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/open

   noah: we've had yearly since the start of the TAG an issues
   list, which in the early life of the TAG was how we worked out
   what to work on
   ... I never intended the actions or product pages to replace
   the issues list
   ... they were there to emphasise delivery
   ... but it means it's been over a year since we looked at the
   set of issues

   jar: there's too many to go over right now

   noah: I'd like to bite off 2-4 each week

   jar: I think it's more productive to look at the objectives

   noah: the issues list is called out in our charter

   <jar> the objectives matrix organizes the issues list

   noah: can you give us a link to the matrix?

   <jar> [31]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix

   <Noah>
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix-20120930

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix-20120930

   <timbl> $ curl -I
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/objectives-matrix

   <timbl> HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found

   jar: last column of matrix gives a link to the issues list
   ... this gives you a way to group the issues

   [34]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/49

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/49

   noah: we have schemes in URIs like http: and protocols like
   HTTP
   ... and it would be good to know what the relationship was
   between them
   ... people disagreed about what the association was
   ... whether http: means use HTTP
   ... the issue was left open because the community and the TAG
   didn't agree
   ... we couldn't straighten it out
   ... my sense is leave it open, and periodically ask if we want
   to revisit it

   jar: I think it's related to ISSUE-57

   jenit: do the new web+ protocols have any impact?

   noah: we couldn't even tell a clean story about http: and HTTP

   timbl: we should never try to tell the exact story about
   everything
   ... the important message to show direction is that http: URLs
   are used as names in the architecture
   ... and you do other things with them apart from using them in
   HTTP
   ... but using the HTTP protocol has a special status
   ... and the protocol may evolve a whole lot
   ... what the default thing to do with an http: URL may change a
   whole lot in the future, and still be called HTTP

   <Noah> The several drafts that were written were under various
   dated versions of
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/SchemeProtocols.html

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/SchemeProtocols.html

   <Noah> I think the question was: if I see http:xxxx, can I try
   to get at it with a protocol other than HTTP

   noah: there were some drafts created and discussed
   ... I thought the fundamental question was, if I have a http:
   URL, that the HTTP GET is authoritative
   ... behind the HTTP could be a FTP, can I do an FTP?
   ... where in the specs does it say you can or can't use an
   http: URL with a FTP protocol
   ... I expected that protocol-like schemes would be associated
   with protocols
   ... then there's a question about what HTTP is anyway, and
   whether they're forwards and backwards compatible

   jar: I'm worried there's no customer for this issue

   noah: that's ok, we can just leave it open
   ... I backed off because I didn't see who would benefit if we
   pursued it

   jenit: maybe web+ and SPDY mean it might be worth revisiting

   [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/66

   jar: my assignment of issues in the matrix is sometimes quite
   arbitrary

   timbl: I think it's a great matrix

   noah: this is relatively recent, opened two years ago as an
   umbrella for Larry's work on mime and the web
   ... the question I'd put is, is there more here
   ... or should we close this issue

   jar: do we know what the role of mime is in the web
   architecture?

   noah: I don't think we're ever going to look at this issue and
   say we're done with it

   jar: I notice he put it under the webarch maintenance product
   ... this is an issue that feels like a product

   <Noah> issue-37?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-37 -- Definition of abstract components with
   namespace namesand frag ids -- open

   <trackbot> [37]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/37

     [37] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/37

   <Noah> issue-40?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-40 -- What are good practices for URI
   construction? -- open

   <trackbot> [38]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/40

     [38] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/40

   jenit: fragid & mime types work is related to ISSUE-66

   <Noah> issue-45?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-45 -- What is the appropriate level of
   granularity of themedia type mechanism? -- open

   <trackbot> [39]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/45

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/45

   <Noah> issue-50?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-50 -- URIs, URNs, "location independent"
   naming systems and associated registries for naming on the Web
   -- open

   <trackbot> [40]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/50

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/50

   noah: I don't know how to use the issues in a way that's
   effective and time-efficient
   ... part of me wants to close them all and see which ones
   re-open

   timbl: maybe not worry about issues being open, just have two
   states: ones we're working on and ones we aren't

   noah: we have products that are related to issues

   jar: we could use 'pending review' for the issues not being
   worked on

   noah: what we're working on is clear, but it's not clear how
   the issues relate to what we're working on

   <jar> 'pending review' could be code for: we've not made
   headway in the past 2 years. trying to close

   noah: I'm worried that they're stale

   jar: the problem is that you feel an obligation to use the
   issue list
   ... I suggest setting them all as 'pending review' and turning
   the ones that we're working on to 'open'

   jenit: there is 'postponed'

   noah: that would work

   jar: we have no postponed issues right now
   ... I suggest setting all the open issues except those provably
   active to 'postponed'

   noah: I can ask for a list of issues that people think are open

   jar: err on the side of postponing them

   <Noah> ACTION: Noah to propose division of issues into
   OPEN/POSTPONED, etc. Due 2013-10-8 [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-767 - Propose division of issues into
   OPEN/POSTPONED, etc. Due 2013-10-8 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due
   2012-11-15].

   <Noah> ACTION-767 Due 2013-01-08

   <trackbot> ACTION-767 Propose division of issues into
   OPEN/POSTPONED, etc. Due 2013-10-8 due date now 2013-01-08

Face-to-face

   noah: there's still some vagueness about where we're going to
   have F2F
   ... Jan 15th

   <Noah> RESOLUTION: TAG will meet 15-17 January, tentatively at
   Adobe West Coast, but may switch to Cambridge depending on
   Noah, Tim Jeni availability.

   <Noah> [more discussion]

   <Noah> RESOLUTION: The TAG will (probably) meet in Cambridge
   March 19-21 2013

   <Noah> Those are from the F2F

   noah: anyone with strong feelings about location should let me
   know

   Adjourned

   <Noah> ADJOURNED

   <timbl> Noah, TAG f2f??

   <timbl> scheduled for 2013-03-19 to 2013-03-21

   <timbl> Location: Cambridge MA

   <timbl> I have that down as East coast NOT west coast

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to propose division of issues into
   OPEN/POSTPONED, etc. Due 2013-10-8 [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to respond to e-mail on AWWW "typo" saying
   TAG did not agree that a change was needed [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to take draft warnings off F2F minutes
   [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/11/08-minutes#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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    $Date: 2012-11-28 23:19:34 $

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-- 
Jeni Tennison
http://www.jenitennison.com
Received on Wednesday, 28 November 2012 23:22:34 GMT

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