W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-tag@w3.org > November 2011

Draft minutes of TAG f2f 2011-11-04

From: Henry S. Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 17:52:44 +0000
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-ID: <f5bsjm15eab.fsf@calexico.inf.ed.ac.uk>
Now available online at

 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html

and below in text form.

ht
------------
                                    [1]W3C

                                   - DRAFT -

                                    TAG f2f

                                  04 Nov 2011

   [2]Agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          TAG members: Dan Appelquist, Tim Berners-Lee, Yves Lafon (for
          item 1), Peter Linss, Ashok Malhotra, Larry Masinter, Noah
          Mendelsohn, Jonathan Rees (for items 2 & 3), Henry S. Thompson;
          Guests: Mike Belshe (for item 1), Alexandre Bertails (for items
          1 & 3), Chris Lilley (for item 3), Peter St. Andre (for item 1),
          Rigo Wenning (for item 2)

   Regrets
          Jeni Tennison

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Henry S. Thompson

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]SPDY
         2. [6]Publishing and Linking on the Web
         3. [7]3023bis -- Media type registration for the XML family
         4. [8]Web Storage
         5. [9]Admin
     * [10]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________________

SPDY

   <stpeter_> [11]http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/slides/httpbis-7.pdf
   (SPDY slides from IETF 80)

   NM: [introduces the TAG to MB]

   MB: I was at Google until 2 months ago, worked on the Chrome team, we
   started SPDY around 2008
   ... Google focus on performance, so interested in protocol speedup
   ... Using the existing mechanisms in HTTP was just gnarly
   ... So we started experimenting in the lab with doing something of our
   own
   ... but based on a lot of prior work in a lot of areas
   ... SPDY is beginning to spread -- Firefox have started some work
   ... to date we've owned it, published an informal spec., some unit
   tests
   ... Firefox adoption possibility has pushed us towards standardization
   ... Interop guarantee is necessary before we can move forward

   MB: Roberto Peon is the person at Google who is on point for SPDY now
   ... We looked at taking this to the IETF, and that took me to PStA

   NM: We got in to this also in part because of our contact with Jim
   Gettys over the buffer bloat issue

   MB: State of play -- Google Chrome now using SPDY for all SSL traffic,
   see [12]about:net-internals
   ... Firefox is implementing it
   ... Amazon Kindle Fire recently announced that they will be using SPDY
   ... A number of other less big names involved, implementations in
   Python and Ruby, etc.
   ... Main parts of SPDY:
    1. Multiplexing;
    2. Compression;
    3. Prioritization;
    4. [Maybe] Server push

   MB:Primary focus is on improving page-load latency

   MB: Browser use of HTTP and TCP involves various attempts to game the
   TCP expected behaviour, particularly in the area of multiple
   connections
   ... SPDY tries to avoid this by addressing multiplexing, with
   prioritization, directly

   <Yves> problem in doing multiplexing at the spdy level (or httpmux
   earlier) is the bad interaction that might happen between the tcp
   window size and the chunk size at l7.

   MB: Google research found that when there are packet losses, having two
   connections is a real win
   ... Multiplexing uses fewer connections which overall simplifies things
   ... Performance == minimal latency

   NM: Trying to get this via multiple connections did seem to make things
   worse

   MB: Wins with NAT as well
   ... Two connections is already recommended in HTTP1.1

   <Yves> note that the number of // connections in http has been removed
   in httpbis (as it was not relfecting the reality of things)

   MB: When that got multiplied by separate hosts for e.g. js and jpg, and
   then 2 per went to 6 per, suddenly we were up to 12 --- 18 connections
   for a single page

   TBL: TCP will back off and reroute if things get stuck

   MB: We took a serious approach to this
   ... The average hosts hit per page is 8, rising 9
   ... and the size of things retrieved has grown too
   ... Browsers are trading off resource fetching against page load
   performance
   ... SPDY was trying to take that optimization off of browsers' backs

   <Yves> having mux helps against multiple tcp conn and badly implemented
   http pipelining.

   MB: Important because the difficulty of modelling web pages has grown
   enormously
   ... JS, CSS have execution times, so building benchmarks for web page
   latency is very tricky
   ... Didn't want to just use Chrome, because it already has a set of
   decisions built in
   ... But building a platform from scratch for benchmarking was too big a
   job
   ... So we did in the end build plugins for Chrome to benchmark SPDY and
   HTTP side-by-side
   ... Very glad that we have Firefox now doing their own similar work
   ... First three goals above are parallel to HTTP -- GET etc.
   ... Server push is different/new, which requires client- and
   server-level rework
   ... We tried some experimental services using push
   ... The cache is an issue
   ... You have to understand the service/application detail, and you only
   get rid of one round-trip
   ... Doesn't look like there's enough energy

   HT: There are apps that make sense to build if you don't have to busy
   wait.

   MB: which is kind of what we have today

   HT: In HTTP 1.1 you can hang on a get.

   NM: Yes, comet.

   HT: But there were too many glitches.

   MB: Yes -- GoogleDocs does mutual refresh by hanging gets
   ... So if you have 30 GoogleDocs open, there's a problem with the limit
   of 6 connections per host
   ... So GoogleDocs fakes it with multiple hosts :-(
   ... SPDY multiplexing is enough to fix this

   TBL: Shared editing experience everywhere would be really good

   MB: Hanging get over SPDY is cheap, and does the job, so Server Push
   doesn't seem so urgent
   ... Server push is server-initiated

   MB: Why SSL? Well, SPDY doesn't require SSL
   ... First choice we had to make was TCP or UDP -- TCP, to save hassle
   ... So, what port? 80 or 443 -- pipelining not really there for 80,
   pblms with proxies, slowly getting sorted out

   NM: Problem would be that new stuff would confuse proxies if it went
   through port 80, right?

   MB: Right
   ... So we went to 443
   ... And in any case, we came to feel that securing the Web was
   independently a good thing

   [Various]: Certificates are broken, how to secure the web is a huge
   issue, maybe not in scope today

   LM: What about IPv6?

   TBL: For stuff that doesn't need to be secured, it's very tempting to
   get to a P2P solution.
   ... But some things, say NYT front page or a TED video, which are truly
   public
   ... must that be destined for P2P, or some other architecture?

   MB: You're right, we recognize that not everything should go this way
   ... But operators are not very good at recognizing the difference
   ... Even the front-page of the NYT is not a simple case, if it's
   personalized to you on the basis of personal (private) info, then that
   is important to keep secure

   <Yves> encrypting everything is a double edged sword...

   MB: The Google China experience made us all very sensitive to the fact
   that personal data can in fact be a matter of life and death, and you
   never know where it's going to turn up

   <timbl> (ages ago .. TBL: Peter, you said when 1 TCP connection has
   losses and slows down it is faster to add a second connection. Of
   course, when there is congestion adding more connections adds to the
   congestion, which on a large scale when everyone does it once, could
   have overall very detrimental effect on latency for everyone else. So
   one should simulate or measure the effect of doing this to everyone on
   the net )

   MB: The whole security layer needs improvement
   ... both in terms of security as such, and in terms of speed
   ... What about proxies?

   <noah> I think this will drive ubiquitous inclusion of SSL acceleration
   in hardware, something I've thought for a long time would be a good
   enabling step

   MB: On the back end, inside firewall, use SPDY w/o SSL

   MB: Proxies are a good thing, and SPDY doesn't have a story about how
   to play nice with proxies
   ... SPDY does not address cacheable secured content
   ... But everyone is using Content Distribution Networks [CDNs], which
   have largely overtaken proxies for many large operators
   ... But this lack is a weakness for SPDY

   <noah> I think it's really large organizations that are deploying
   CDNs...you prejudice against the long tail when you assume that
   everything accessed from distant locations is sourced by a large
   organization like CNN or Google

   LM: We need an analysis of what the impact of not being able to cache
   actually is

   MB: Right -- what's the impact in aggregate -- even though there are
   clear cases where it loses on an individual basis

   NM: For the original pre-CDN world, your ISP got you pages that started
   a long way away quickly
   ... That won't work with SPDY

   LM: Right, so that's why some more global measurement and analysis is
   required

   MB: And of course any SSL use today is already not proxied
   ... With SNI, you can see the hostname, but not in vanilla SSL, which
   makes virtual hosting difficult

   <Yves> java doesn't have SNI as well :(

   LM: Corporations may not be happy with the loss of filtering capability
   that follows from ubiquitous SSL usage

   PL: Moving to signed content is another important avenue to look at,
   necessary for peer to peer failover for http

   MB: There are a lot of horror stories out there from big sites about
   proxy badnesses
   ... SSL removes that vulnerability
   ... The mobile operators have this lose-lose tradeoff between
   idiosyncratic compression (fast but potentially bad on the device) vs.
   not (slow but reliable on the device)
   ... Patrick McManus of Firefox has looked at some numbers
   ... 83 connections for the NYT home page puts really bad pressure on
   NAT
   ... But the NAT things cuts both ways -- dependence on a single channel
   makes NAT dropout more noticeable/serious

   MB: Speculation about Kindle Fire -- you could push the multiplexing
   out to the Amazon connection point at EC2
   ... So that all traffic goes via a single connection (over 443) from
   the Kindle customer
   ... This appears to contradict the end-to-end story SSL demands
   ... Requires the notion of trusted proxy -- SSL man-in-the-middle
   ... So, and explicit proxy: Kindle to EC2, or anyone to their corporate
   firewall
   ... Yes, there is a potential for head-of-line blocking, which can
   amplify in certain cases
   ... But overall we are still winning
   ... It's difficult to model this, you have to collect empirical data
   ... No doubt that with multiple streams, you are more vulnerable
   ... I think there are some TCP tweaks that can help, we're working on
   it
   ... [Stuff about 'slow startup' which scribe didn't get]

   NM: Adding another stream to SPDY doesn't allow cross-stream fixup,
   right?

   MB: Yes
   ... SPDY does in general fix the head-of-line blocking problem
   ... Firefox guys have been trying to get pipelining working better, but
   it's really hard
   ... They presented at IETF last year [ref?]
   ... We were pushed to start all the way down at the packet protocol
   level, but resisted
   ... We think there's a lot of room to optimize on top of TCP, and we'll
   only look downwards after that's worked through

   DKA: So standardization -- What does "take this to IETF in 2012" mean
   in detail? Should the TAG stay involved, and if so why -- in what way
   does it impact on Web Arch?

   NM: Yes, I think TAG should stay involved, but we should discuss this
   on a telcon

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of how, if at all, TAG
   should continue to be involved with SPDY [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-626 - Schedule discussion of how, if at all,
   TAG should continue to be involved with SPDY [on Noah Mendelsohn - due
   2011-11-11].

   TBL: At the Web level, things such as Content type, the Link header,
   things like that
   ... Does SPDY change that? Where are HTTP headers?

   MB: Almost entirely untouched
   ... So the framing layer is pretty much all that changes
   ... We looked at 'improving' some aspects of HTTP -- absolutizing all
   URIs
   ... but there are some servers which don't support it

   TBL: Absolute URIs can indeed be problematic

   LM: Does HTTP 1.1 really require support?

   [Various]: Yes

   MB: Net-net on that -- we backed off doing anything like that
   ... Not yet sure how we go to IETF, exploring that with PStA

   LM: SPDY sounds extremely immature to me -- the impact of this on a
   wide scale, outside Chrome<->Google servers, is just unknown
   ... W3C used to have resources in this area, it would be good to have
   W3C involved in taking something like this forward
   ... Without any guarantee that the outcome will be much like SPDY
   ... But I think a prerequisite for standardization is more exploration
   of the requirements and consequences

   NM: W3C should do this? My sense is that we've been happy with IETF
   taking the lead

   LM: Well, comparing two protocols wrt 'page load latency' is a W3C area
   ... 'Doing this' will involve a lot of different tasks - "What does the
   Web require in terms of optimization" is a W3C issue, almost by
   definition

   TBL: Yes

   NM: So, push back on taking it to IETF?

   TBL: No, makes sense to do the protocol there, as LM said
   ... Low-level question -- Can the client change its mind about
   priority?

   MB: Change-priority is not supported, but tab-change in the browser
   might provoke us to rethink that
   ... Note that the priorities are advisory, the server can do whatever
   it likes

   <timbl> chrome://net-internals/#spdy

   MB: Wrt standardization and changes -- putting it out there means
   Google understands that other perspectives are now needed, and will
   lead to changes

   NM: Need to stop, so thanks to Mike
   ... the TAG will come back to this -- who do we feed back to?

   <noah> [14]http://groups.google.com/group/spdy-dev

   <noah> Send email to this group: spdy-dev 'at' googlegroups.com

   HST: I think the W3C IETF liaison needs to be aware of this, and help
   us decide where the W3C needs to be involved

   NM: Suspended until 1050

Publishing and Linking on the Web

   NM: Resuming

   <noah>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb-2011-10
   -27.html

   DKA: [introduces the above doc]
   ... Questions for Rigo -- Is the overall goal sensible/useful; Are
   there other terms we should add, e.g. 'performance'; Are there other
   regulatory/policy issues we should add to the framing?

   LM: Great start, ready to figure out what the next steps are
   ... To be useful, this has to be published in a way that gets community
   consensus
   ... How do we get there

   <masinter> the TAG could publish it as a NOTE and start a community
   group?

   <jar> but we wanted this to go rec track.

   <jar> Thinh [Nguyen] says effectiveness much enhanced by rec status

   NM: Maybe we should schedule detailed review of this at some length at
   the January F2F

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule very detailed line-by-line review of
   Pub&Linking draft at January F2F [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-627 - Schedule very detailed line-by-line
   review of Pub&Linking draft at January F2F [on Noah Mendelsohn - due
   2011-11-11].

   LM: Can we get the TAG out of the critical path?

   LM: Community group, which might have some lawyers in it

   RW: The scope of this document is too large

   <noah> I would prefer to focus on linking

   RW: Publishing is a nightmare, and linking even more so
   ... Legal tactic is to partition as much as possible
   ... Reduce this, make two documents

   <jar> jar to rw: this is not a legal document

   DKA: Start with linking?

   RW: Yes

   RW: Look at www.linksandlaw.com

   <jar> linksandlaw.com - I've given out the pointer a few times

   <noah> [17]http://www.linksandlaw.com/linkingcases.htm

   RW: there are a very large number of relevant cases

   LM: Would you come to the TAG for help if you were tasked to do so?

   RW: Your first document, to get the story clear, is not for the world

   TBL: Why not for the world?

   RW: If you talk too much, your central message goes away [tip of the
   hat to TLR]

   NM: Advice could focus on "if ... then ..." heads-up kinds of
   observations

   RW: There is a long-standing conflict between the technical and legal
   communities

   RW: In particular a conflict over ownership of terms
   ... There are already laws, with terminology definitions

   <masinter> I think we should take what we have and see how we can make
   it useful....

   LM: I just want to make this useful enough to publish
   ... Suppose this is just an outline of what the TAG understands in this
   space
   ... And accepting that we can't resolve the conflicts
   ... Could we point out where the conflicts are?

   RW: If you asked me, I would try to come up with a concise statement of
   the fact that publication implies the possibility of linking to
   ... See e.g. the KPMG example from linksandlaw:
   [18]http://www.linksandlaw.com/linkingcases-linkingpolicies.htm#KPMG

   <jar> oops, I had promised to write something about "don't link" terms
   of use

   <jar> look at the american airlines site (whose URL I can't give you)

   RW: Not stop this document, to get our own understanding clear
   ... but also publish simple short observations that are at the core

   DKA: But that's a legal statement

   NM: We set out to avoid making policy statements
   ... We can't state that publishing gives a right to others to link

   RW: Not a right, but an expectation

   TBL: You're preaching to the choir, but how do we say this?

   RW: We can distinguish between linking itself and the existence of
   access control

   NM: [Hypothetical KPMG example]
   ... How do we make it a technical observation, not a policy one

   RW: The fact that you include a pointer to something on the Web in your
   document has no meaning for the content over there, and is completely
   unrelated to the thing identified

   TBL: If you can from the KPMG home page browse to another page, I
   should be able to pass that link to someone else
   ... The UK position appears to be that publishing a link collection to
   pirate music sites is to be an accessory to copyright theft
   ... We could try reciprocal banning, by notifying KPMG that they are
   not allowed to read the W3C site :-)

   JAR: Wrt what RW and LM said, the original idea, from Thinh Nguyen, was
   that it would be useful, to forestall bad decisions, if there was a
   document that simply stated what the technical community thinks these
   terms mean.
   ... Thinh went on to say that to get the necessary impact, it needs to
   go out as a REC
   ... So it doesn't try to argue with the law, it just says what the
   technical understanding of these terms is

   <jar> session with Thinh:
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/12/02-minutes.html#item01 ...

   DKA: So we started from there, and the fact that a URI is public
   identifier, to get to the parallel between speech acts and URI use, and
   that brings in the 'right to link', parallel to free speech
   ... from which we got drawn in to the distinction between linking and
   embedding
   ... And getting embedding clear requires us to get the
   publishing/hosting distinction clear
   ... Because it isn't clear that a page with text and video involves
   multiple sources

   RW: The legal side knows about this

   DKA: So, maybe we don't need all of that?

   NM: We're getting different advice from different legal sources. . .

   AM: Alternatively, maybe we should not publish a TAG doc't, but
   something in the popular space, e.g. the NYT over Tim's byline

   <masinter> so we should make a short statement around which we can get
   consensus, focused on one small issue around linking and copyright

   <masinter> at least that's what Rigo is advocating

   RW: The TAG endorsement of a short statement about the passive linking
   case which is that URIs are constitutive of the Web and publishing a
   page with a URI creates a legitimate expectation of linkability

   AM: If we did a short statement, how do we get it out? To make an
   impact?

   <masinter> the current document is useful for us, but way too broad.

   RW: The publication channel of the TAG itself should be ordinary, which
   has our opinion

   LM: It could be a finding

   RW: And then you go to the NYT and say "The TAG has said. . ."

   NM: If the W3C/the membership/TBL want to say [a quasi-hortatory claim
   about the right to link], that's fine, but it's not for the TAG to do
   so
   ... The TAG does architecture

   TBL: But the architecture has a fundamental social component

   <masinter> i think this can be a finding, making a statement about the
   architectural assumption of the web and underlying many of the TAG's
   other activities is that linking is fundamental, that providing URIs
   for content is recommended, exactly to promote linking

   TBL: Spam is a social violation of the architecture
   ... So I think the TAG can speak on this subject in social terms

   NM: Yes, I'm comfortable with talking about social value, and the
   impact of policy on value

   TBL: Forbiding incoming links breaks the [social] system

   NM: But there are clearly (jurisdictional bounded) cases where linking
   to unacceptable material is itself unacceptable

   LM: We haven't said anything about laws

   TBL: But we are close to that in saying KPMG are doing something wrong

   RW: Wrt DKA's point, using the free speech analogy is going further
   that I would

   <masinter> we have designed the system such that linkability is a
   benefit. Attempts to restrict linkability is counter to the effective
   use of the system as designed.

   RW: I would focus on the passive case: it's wrong for sites to pubish
   rules which forbid linking to them

   <masinter> we don't have to say "the law is a bad idea", we have to
   point out the negative consequences of such laws

   <masinter> i would still like to see Jeni/Dan's document published as a
   note after review, even if we also have a finding about common use of
   linking and the TAG's position on it

   <jar> Thinh Nguyen: default rules are important in court... may be
   supplied by technical standards (that was Thinh last December)

   LM: Trying to avoid value judgements, but just say what the
   consequences of doing so would be

   <jar> The consequences speak for themselves. Generally speaking.

   NM: I want to focus on the consequences of laws which enable behaviours

   HST: That's much narrower than I hear from JAR and LM, who are happy to
   discuss consequences of actions, not just laws (or not laws at all)

   NM: Look at the KPMG case -- it's going to get legal very quickly
   ... Immediately the question will arise as to whether their statement
   is enforceable by law

   RW: As Thinh Nguyen said, the legal interpretation will be based on
   usage, on community habits

   RW: Is the expectation in practice that certain things hold?
   ... So for example the attempt to smuggle in obligations via
   shrink-wrap was surprising, contrary to expectation, and so not
   supported by the courts

   RW: Similarly the expectation is that publishing something on the Web
   gives the possibility of linking

   <masinter> it gives the possibility of linking, and we've encouraged
   that

   JAR: I actually do think it makes sense for a technical person to say
   that "operating under such-and-such a restriction would have the
   following [bad] consequences", so I'm not ruling out laws

   <noah> +1 to what Jonathan just said

   <masinter> i'm trying to distinguish between "such restrictions are
   bad" and "negative consequences of such restrictions are X, Y, Z; such
   restrictions are bad if they do not have clear redeeming value"

   <masinter> the web was designed for X, it was built with this
   assumption

   HST: OK, I see a continuum, was a mistake to try to push for two
   distinct positions

   DKA: Saying "restricting linking will have a detrimental effect on the
   Web" is weak from a legal perspective -- The lawyer will say "Not my
   problem"

   <noah> What I want to rule out, mostly, is: "law XXX should not be
   passed". I would rather say: "if you pass law XXX, you should
   understand that the consequences to the operation of the system, and to
   its positive social value will be YYY"

   <masinter> restrictions on linking are impossible to accomplish because
   of web architecture? search, robots.txt, harvesting, ...?

   <masinter> we should be clearer about who the primary audience is for
   this finding

   <masinter> maybe a blog post?

   DKA: We're not asking for unrestricted freedom to link, but no less
   freedom than the freedom of speech

   NM: The speech parallel is weak, because URIs don't point to consistent
   things necessarily
   ... I prefer the address analogy

   NM: Consider the address of [a prohibited organization] in a public
   works document about street repairs versus in a list of recommended
   destinations

   NM: So consider a log of URIs versus a Web page which references one

   LM: Summarizing RW -- the scope of this document is too broad, you
   should find a few one-page extracts

   DKA: I'll take this back to Jeni and consider all of the input we've
   gotten
   ... And decide whether to take this forward broadly but internally
   ... or whether we can pare it down effectively

   NM: There are clearly different opinions about:
   ... 1) What the goal of the document is;
   ... 2) What its scope is.
   ... We should acknowledge the lack of consensus, and maybe the
   divergence of advice we're getting

   RW: Pursuing (w/o publishing) this document, will improve the value of
   TAG utterances in the future
   ... That the passive case: I'm a site, and I forbid linking, is wrong
   is what you should say
   ... not the active "I have a right to link"
   ... The latter gets quickly extremely messy

   HST: I'm not sure sending the editors off to work harder when the TAG
   hasn't agreed on scope is an invitation to waste time

   DKA: I wasn't going to dive right in to cut the document down -- I want
   to work with all the feedback we've gotten this week, particularly on
   Wednesday, and that's where I want to focus

   LM: So a new draft is worth working on if it yields something we can
   publish

   NM: Remember Goals and Success Criteria -- we should keep these
   ([20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/PublishingLinking.html) in
   mind
   ... And consider revising them too

   <noah> ACTION: Appelquist with help from Jeni to propose changes to
   goals, success criteria etc. for publishing/linking product page
   [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-629 - With help from Jeni to propose changes
   to goals, success criteria etc. for publishing/linking product page [on
   Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-11-11].

   LM: Right -- for example split the work between a small 'official'
   publication and a larger background unofficial 'white paper'

   NM: Thank you Rigo

3023bis -- Media type registration for the XML family

   CL: I've mailed a summary of recent progress on 3023bis to www-tag
   ... Previous draft deprecated text/xml
   ... Implementors pushed back, as we have to support it even if new
   authors don't use it
   ... I took this to IETF80, got lots of interaction
   ... HTTPbis then removed the default charset handling rules, which is
   consistent with applications today
   ... But that left email out of sync with HTTP
   ... But but it now appears there is willingness to fix the text/...
   story to allow individual text/ media types to declare their own
   charset rules
   ... So text/xml can say there is no default charset and the XML spec
   rules determine [which will apply to email as well as HTTP]

   LM: So, what is in the way of publication?

   CL: On this front, nothing, but the fragid situation is still pending

   JAR: xhtml+xml can have RDFa in it

   HST: What's the problem with that?

   JAR: The case is this -- you have a URI with a fragid, and you want to
   follow your nose
   ... If you look at the 3023bis registration, it says XPointer tells you
   the semantics
   ... so you look for an ID, and don't find one
   ... So there's an error (per XPOinter)

   HST: The no new syntax move, for SVG:
   ... if syntax is not a valid xpointer, then defer to the specific media
   type reg
   ... the xhtml media type has to say something about RDFa
   ... and 3023 needs an override policy

   jar: the new piece for me was realizing that we need to also talk about
   application/xhtml+xml

   HST: 3023bis says it is the definitive spec for fragids
   ... what it needs to do is to say under what circumstances it defers to
   the subsidiary media type reg

   <masinter> why is this on critical path for 3023bis ?

   ACTION Henry to work with Chris Lilley to bring forward prose for
   3023bis wrt generic processing of fragment identifiers which addresses
   the rdf+xml and xhtml+xml issues

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-628 - Work with Chris Lilley to bring forward
   prose for 3023bis wrt generic processing of fragment identifiers which
   addresses the rdf+xml and xhtml+xml issues [on Henry Thompson - due
   2011-11-11].

   ACTION-628 due 2011-12-31

   <trackbot> ACTION-628 Work with Chris Lilley to bring forward prose for
   3023bis wrt generic processing of fragment identifiers which addresses
   the rdf+xml and xhtml+xml issues due date now 2011-12-31

   <noah> That's fine, Henry, assuming you'll also put in the cover email
   a bit of framing to remind something about the history and context for
   whatever is proposed

   LM: Isn't this a general point about mixins

   <masinter> use of RDFa as a mixin applies to more things, like JSON

   LM: Can't we get some cleaner layering?

   NM: In the interest of getting 3023bis out, can't we do this locally
   first, in 3023bis, on the assumption that it will be consistent with
   any cleaner general solution?

   LM: Getting mixins right is likely to be a huge problem, you're going
   to get stuck in a tarpit

   CL: You may be right, we'll see

   LM: The way to get follow-your-nose for mixins requires you to modify
   the host-language media type definitions systematically

   HST: In my recent email I distinguish between "witting" and "unwitting"
   host languages
   ... The unwitting case is when an XML language (e.g. XML Schema, XSLT,
   XML Signatures) allows any attribute on any element, as long as it's in
   a namespace that's not theirs

   HST: The witting cases work easily, but the unwitting are important.
   They allow mixins without explicitly naming them in their specs, so
   they can't be expected to change the media type registration

   <masinter> are there other mixins other than RDFa that add fragment
   identifier possibilities?

   <masinter> can i mix-in SVG into something and use SVG visible objects
   as fragment targets?

   HST: 'Unwitting' embedding of RDFa can't trigger a change to a media
   type registration

   LM: Would unwitting embedding of e.g. SVG introduce the possibility of
   using SVG-style fragids which only work in the SVG sub-part?

   NM: There is at least some discussion of that case in the
   Self-describing Web finding

   TBL: This comes under the XML functions story as well

   LM: So, go ahead, but be aware that there be dragons

Web Storage

   AM: There is a Web Storage Last Call WD just out
   ... We need to decide whether we want to comment

Admin

   NM: RDFa vs. Microdata will require our attention wrt HTML WG process
   by mid-January, we will return to this

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Appelquist with help from Jeni to propose changes to
   goals, success criteria etc. for publishing/linking product page
   [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of how, if at all, TAG should
   continue to be involved with SPDY [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to schedule very detailed line-by-line review of
   Pub&Linking draft at January F2F [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [25]scribe.perl version 1.135
    ([26]CVS log)
    $Date: 2011/11/06 17:48:54 $

References

   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Oct/0119.html
   3. http://www.w3.org/2011/11/04-tagmem-irc
   4. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#agenda
   5. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#item01
   6. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#item02
   7. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#item03
   8. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#item04
   9. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#item05
  10. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#ActionSummary
  11. http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/slides/httpbis-7.pdf
  12. about:net-internals
  13. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action01
  14. http://groups.google.com/group/spdy-dev
  15. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb-2011-10-27.html
  16. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action02
  17. http://www.linksandlaw.com/linkingcases.htm
  18. http://www.linksandlaw.com/linkingcases-linkingpolicies.htm#KPMG
  19. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/12/02-minutes.html#item01
  20. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/PublishingLinking.html)
  21. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action03
  22. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action03
  23. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action01
  24. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/11/04-minutes.html#action02
  25. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  26. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

-- 
       Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
      10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
                Fax: (44) 131 651-1426, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk
                       URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
 [mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam]
Received on Sunday, 6 November 2011 17:55:38 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Thursday, 26 April 2012 12:48:40 GMT