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DRAFT Minutes from the May 5, 2011 TAG Telcon

From: Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:26:40 -0700
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
Message-ID: <C68CB012D9182D408CED7B884F441D4D05C7DCF86F@nambxv01a.corp.adobe.com>
Sorry for the delay,
Available at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/05-minutes.html

and as text below ----------



      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                 W3C TAG Teleconference of 5 May 2011

05 May 2011


      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/05/05-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-tagmem-irc


          Dan_Appelquist, Yves_Lafon, Peter_Linss, Ashok_Malhotra,
          Larry_Masinter, Noah_Mendelsohn, Jonathan_Rees,
          Jeni_Tennison, Henry_Thompson

          Tim, Berners-Lee

          Noah Mendelsohn

          Larry Masinter


     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene, future regrets
         2. [6]Minutes of 28 April 2011
         3. [7]Privacy Workshop
         4. [8]W3C and Web Architecture use of Registries
         5. [9]fragment ID semantics and media types
         6. [10]other business
     * [11]Summary of Action Items

   <Larry> scribe: Larry Masinter

   <Larry> scribenick: Larry

Convene, future regrets

   Noah: will have meeting on 12th; regrets from Tim until June 2

   <plinss> Peter sends regrets for the June 2 telcon

   Larry might be out on May 12

Minutes of 28 April 2011

   <noah> [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/04/28-minutes

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/04/28-minutes

   <DKA> I think they're good.

   <noah> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 28 April 2011 are approved

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/04/28-minutes

   topic; Administrative items

   Noah: As Tim explained last week, W3C management team are asking
   internal groups to commit to 2-3 significant goals. Tim & Noah will
   continue to discuss this and will bring this to TAG.
   ... working on quarterly status reports, will show it & solicit
   input, will want a quick turn-around. Please send email about things
   you care about wrt status report, should have draft in next day or
   ... looking into coordinating with IAB or joint meeting, has had
   some interactions with Bernard Adoba, contact through PLH
   ... There has been discussion about Quebec in July, discussion about
   teeing up issues.
   ... Proposal they would dial into TAG F2F perhaps.

   <ht> IETF Quebec is 24-28 July

   Noah: I want volunteers to help develop agenda for call with IAB.

   Larry: I can work on that, will solicit input from those who
   participate in W3C and IETF

   (technical difficulties with HT phone, covering with IRC)

   <noah> Henry, are you willing to help Larry with the planning?

   <ht> The talk in the hall at IETF was that we need to find out more
   about each other, and a f2f was to be preferred as a first step.

   <ht> I am not at all convinced that a telcon is a good start.

   <noah> Because?

   <ht> We need to get to know these guys, that's why we suggested a

   <noah> Well, I think a F2F is unlikely to happen until, say, Dec. if

   <ht> they suggested it.

   <noah> Really better to wait that long vs. doing what we can now?

   Larry: I will likely be in Quebec IETF

   <Yves> I will be in Quebec IETF

   <jar> [14]http://www.ietf.org/meeting/81/index.html

     [14] http://www.ietf.org/meeting/81/index.html

   <ht> HST might be able to be in Quebec, yes

   noah: (various) issues around logistics of joint meeting

   <ht> I agree that cancelling September is not an option

   <ht> HST understands NRM's concerns, and will represent them

   noah: It's my belief that setting up a TAG meeting tends to be the
   kind of thing that the next time we can book a TAG meeting will be
   December, or maybe TPAC

   <noah> ACTION: Larry to (with help from Henry and Yves) make
   proposals for topics to be pursued with IAB. [recorded in

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-tagmem-minutes.html#action01

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-549 - With help from Henry and Yves make
   proposals for topics to be pursued with IAB [on Larry Masinter - due

   noah: consistent with having a call on June 8 wednesday of TAG F2F
   ... 13-15 september meeting: think about your preferences

   Larry: prefer Edinburg

   Noah: <something about Norm's report from task force, missed it>

   <ht> NM: NDW may join the June f2f, either by 'phone or in person,
   to update us on state of XML taskforce

Privacy Workshop

   Ashok: was really only about the "Do Not Track" header, very well
   organized and very well run
   ... It seemed that all of the stakeholders were there: Facebook,
   PayPal, FCC, Academics, regulators from Canada, etc. Everyone was
   ... general consensus that _something_ has to be done; a few people
   ... facebook and paypal seemed to argue that they were 'special' and
   should be exempt. Others were saying 'we require a lot more
   details'. Others were really outraged, stood up and screamed, 'what
   the hell is going on'.
   ... there are a lot of details that need to be worked out. "Do we
   require a header or a DOM property? Do we require a response header?
   Is it granular, by company, by ad network, is it a site list, it is
   a tag list, is it personal data rather than analytical data?'
   ... you have to be able to do it without making it very difficult
   for the user. This was a concern that came up over and over again,
   that user's DONT actually specify their browser preferences, how to
   make it simple, what are the defaults, and so on.
   ... big question, how will we measure compliance, who will measure
   ... looks like we will start working group(s) to standardize this,
   proposals from Microsoft (to W3C) and Mozilla (to IETF). Whether we
   end up with a W3C or IETF working group is open.
   ... there will be a report from Thomas in about two weeks

   noah: Is there a general assumption that the "Do Not Track" header
   WOULD be effective if deployed?

   ashok: it was debated, it was debated by details, i do not think
   there was an argument that "that's the wrong direction, and we ought
   to be going somewhere else"

   noah: we rely on the implementor of the server to actually implement
   this, there's nothing in the protocol to enforce?

   ashok: this is part of the debate

   <Zakim> DKA, you wanted to ask was the CDT proposal (privacy
   rule-sets) or any other proposal besides DNT discussed?

   dka: was CDT at the workshop, were any other proposals discussed?

   ashok: A. Cooper from CDT, and (someone, missed). The gentleman
   spoke about privacy rule-sets, but only briefly This was put into
   the 'details' bucket.
   ... The agenda points to the position papers,
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/agenda.html. Reommend
   Facebook's position paper in particular.

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/agenda.html.

   <noah> ACTION-545?

   <trackbot> ACTION-545 -- Ashok Malhotra to report to TAG, after
   privacy workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and
   especially degree to which use cases beyond those addressed by "Do
   Not Track" need attention -- due 2011-05-03 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/545

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/545

   <noah> close ACTION-545

   <trackbot> ACTION-545 Report to TAG, after privacy workshop,
   regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to
   which use cases beyond those addressed by "Do Not Track" need
   attention closed

   <noah> ACTION-507?

   <trackbot> ACTION-507 -- Daniel Appelquist to with Noah to suggest
   next steps for TAG on privacy -- due 2011-05-03 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/507

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/507

   dka: there's an ongoing discussion, API minimization still an issue

   <noah> note action items from previous privacy workshop:

     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Dec/att-0061/ActionItems_Workshop.pdf

   <noah> I do see that last week's workshop is promising to propose a
   set of next steps, to be available soon.

   <Zakim> Larry, you wanted to discuss position papers

   LM: Looks to me like a lot of the discussion at this workshop was at
   the policy level (what do we want to do) as opposed to technical
   (how do we want to do it).
   ... The "Do Not Track" header is in some sense a policy proposal,
   wrapped in a best guess implementation proposal.

   ashok: the people that asked lots of questions were using them to
   say "well, it isn't well spelled out"

   AM: It's possible that people asking questions were actually happy
   to delay things a bit.

   LM: Not sure about that. Many of the questions looked appropriate to
   ... What are the threats we're trying to guard against? How do the
   mechanisms perform in those use cases?

   noah: W3C point of contact is TLR; Noah & Dan will coordinate with
   him to brainstorm about where W3C sees this going and what the TAG
   can do.

   NM: Proposing to recast ACTION-507 as being to work with Thomas
   Roessler to coordinate plan for W3C and TAG.

   larry: suggest taking this as a technical and not just
   administrative issue: What *are* the architectual issues open, and
   what can the TAG do to help with them?

   NM: Yes, the goal is for the TAG to deal with the architectural

   larry: I think this is something we could work on whether or not W3C
   is the standards group for DNT, for example

   ashok: there was a lot of talk about 'first party' and 'third
   party', but it was very difficult to tell a 'third party', where do
   we go here?

   <noah> Just so you know, I'm about to propose closing ACTION-507,
   openening a new one on Dan with help from me to work with TLR to get
   ready for serious TAG discussion at F2F

   <noah> close ACTION-507

   <trackbot> ACTION-507 With Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on
   privacy closed

   <noah> ACTION Dan to (with help from Noah) plan TAG work on privacy,
   leading to session at F2F, next step is contact with TLR

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-550 - With help from Noah to plan TAG work
   on privacy, leading to session at F2F, next step is contact with TLR
   [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-05-12].

   LM: Request Ashok's list of architectural issues from Privacy
   Workshop to appear on future agenda.

W3C and Web Architecture use of Registries

   <noah> ACTION-539?

   <trackbot> ACTION-539 -- Larry Masinter to liaise with Thomas
   Roessler about the registries issue background -- due 2011-03-24 --

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539

   <noah> [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/04/14-minutes.html#item06

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/04/14-minutes.html#item06

   <noah> LM: There was a discussion at IETF with IANA. A mailing list
   was started to involve IANA, IAB, IESG, including Thomas Roessler
   and Philippe le Hegaret. A goal is to be in time to influence HTML

   There is a mailing list (
   [23]https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/happiana) for discussions
   about improving some of the processes around IANA registries and a
   wiki page [24]http://www.w3.org/wiki/FriendlyRegistries listing some
   requirements and a place to gather explicit proposals.

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0006.html:
     [23] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/happiana)
     [24] http://www.w3.org/wiki/FriendlyRegistries

   yves: the HTML working group decided to put rel relations in the
   microformats wiki site, but if happy iana mailing list comes to a
   new procedure for iana registries this will be 'new information' and
   the issue can be reopened.

   <noah> ACTION-33?

   <trackbot> ACTION-33 -- Henry Thompson to revise naming challenges
   story in response to Dec 2008 F2F discussion -- due 2011-06-06 --

   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/33

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/33

   <noah> ACTION-121?

   <trackbot> ACTION-121 -- Henry Thompson to hT to draft TAG input to
   review of draft ARK RFC -- due 2011-05-01 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/121

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/121

   <ht> No interaction between those actions and this issue

   <noah> ACTION-531?

   <trackbot> ACTION-531 -- Larry Masinter to draft document on
   architectural good practice relating to registries -- due 2011-04-19
   -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531

   <noah> ACTION-531 Due 2011-05-27

   <trackbot> ACTION-531 Draft document on architectural good practice
   relating to registries due date now 2011-05-27

   larry: this is a swirl of administrative and architectural issues,
   and i think administrative dominates

   <noah> ACTION-539?

   <trackbot> ACTION-539 -- Larry Masinter to liaise with Thomas
   Roessler about the registries issue background -- due 2011-03-24 --

   <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539

   <noah> ACTION-478?

   <trackbot> ACTION-478 -- Jonathan Rees to prepare a second draft of
   a finding on persistence of references, to be based on decision tree
   from Oct. 2010 F2F -- due 2011-05-09 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/478

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/478

   <noah> ACTION-539?

   <trackbot> ACTION-539 -- Larry Masinter to liaise with Thomas
   Roessler about the registries issue background -- due 2011-03-24 --

   <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539

   <noah> close ACTION-539?

fragment ID semantics and media types

   <noah> Jonathan's email:

     [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Apr/0062.html

   <scribe> Scribenick: noah

   JAR: RDFa is effectively a mixin to XML
   ... thie situation with XML and HTML with respect to RFDa is
   analogous... the media type registrations says something about
   fragment IDs, but it isn't consistent with what RDF wants
   ... RFC 3023, the XML media type registration, does say something
   about fragment IDs, but it doesn't say what RDFa needs.
   ... I pointed this out to the RDFa group, and they didn't seem very
   ... But I submitted some text. Even if they didn't fix the problem,
   the problem should be documented.


     [32] http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-rdfa-core-20110331/#s_Syntax_overview

   JAR: The TAG (perhaps Larry) said: "well, if the problem isn't
   fixed, at least document it". They drafted something, and it's
   linked from my email.
   ... the resulting text is linked from

     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Apr/0062.html

   <ht> +1 to JAR pushing back further

   JAR: We looked at this again, and Noah had a concern about one
   sentence (scribe isn't sure which). I, JAR, agreed with Noah, and so
   I sent a comment.
   ... I did draft the sentence that says "unfortunately" for them.

   <jar> Unfortunately, this practice is not at present covered by

   <jar> the media type registrations ...

   JAR: What's worse is that nobody is actually signed up to make this
   all work.

   <JeniT> Currently it says "However, the media type registrations
   that govern the meaning of fragment identifiers (see section 3.5 of
   the URI specification [RFC3986], [RFC3023], and [RFC2854]) have not
   yet caught up with this practice."

   LM: Would it help if the TAG expressed the opinion that the RDFa
   working group has responsibility to make sure that their specs are
   consistent with the rest of the Web?

   JAR: Might help, or they might say not in our charter.

   <larry> ScribeNick: Larry

   noah: isn't it true that all W3C working groups have some
   responsiiblity to strive for consistency with web architecture etc.
   Doesn't the W3C process explicitly or implicitly put that
   responsibility on working groups?

   yves: may not be explicit in the charter, but it's how W3C operates
   from day 1

   jar: they're at second "Last Call"

   noah: often what has happened is that, Tim, as Director, and Tag
   member, is how the TAG makes its opinion known
   ... we have some de facto if not de jure clout, what do we want to
   tell them?

   jar: this segues into what Jeni was just doing....

   <Zakim> JeniT, you wanted to say that the RDFa group don't need to
   solve the problem, they just need to insert JAR's weasel words


     [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0000.html

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say Well, we >could< say "this is going
   to take time, but it's worth waiting for"

   jeni: proposed update to MIME and Web document....

   noah: we hit it with #!, RDFa, conneg, to just sort of go "we're
   going to punt on specs and architecture", but this is increasingly

   <noah> In a nutshell, I think it's worth debating two options:

   <noah> Jeni's: It's too late, we don't want to slow down things like
   RDFa. Just have them put in a health warning indicating that specs
   are being ignored, and move along.

   <noah> Alternative: decide that this is becoming an increasingly
   important aspect of Web arch. It's coming up with #!, with RDFa,
   with client-side state, and conneg. To have the core specs not being
   followed needs to be fixed, even if it means slowing down the
   freezing of specs like RDFa.

   <noah> I'm really not sure which path is better, and I'm proposing
   that we look hard at what Jeni's drafted to see if it answers that

   larry: Why doesn't it matter to RDF group that their fragments don't
   work with 3986?

   jar: The namespace used for RDF is different than the namespace used
   by IETF, so it's OK that they're different.
   ... It doesn't matter to be consistent with the URI namespace that
   we know of.
   ... It's difficult to bridge these two worlds.
   ... take one of these document and put on XML hat, follow your nose,
   you get an element in the infoset; if you put on your RDF hat, you
   follow your nose, and you get to something, but you get to a
   different thing

   <noah> JAR: Put on your XML hat, follow your nose, and you get to an
   element. Take the same input, put on your RDF hat, and you get
   something else.

   <noah> JT: You talk also about the case where there is an element.

   jeni: there are situations where there is an element that has that
   ID, according to IETF that uRI with fragment ID identifies that

   <noah> JAR: Yes. Then, according to IETF, it identifies that
   element. Conneg makes it weird.

   jar: "Follow your nose" is already broken by content negotiation

   noah: there's plenty of practice out there ... content negotiation
   between text/html and application/xhtml+xml is 'close enough'

   jar: it works well enough in the cases they care about

   noah: we will pick up with this at a future

other business

   dka: will have more on API minimization for next call

   noah: whole bunch of actions are due on 10th, please in email give


Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Larry to (with help from Henry and Yves) make
   proposals for topics to be pursued with IAB. [recorded in

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2011/05/05-tagmem-minutes.html#action01

   [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 19 May 2011 23:28:36 UTC

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